Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Root of Jesse]

So...where did the catechism come from
And what does it mean when it says "free from all stain of original sin"?

From Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.
It means that God took away the stain of all sin from her because His vessel, His tabernacle for 9 months, should be pure, always and forever.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Reflecting on this... I think this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Sola Scriptura idea. Essentially what you are saying is that if Mary keeps the Law by making the sin offering after giving birth, then that means she was a sinner. But of course, the Bible doesn't say that. Nor does Jesus being baptized by John mean that Jesus was a sinner. I think that both the New Eve and Her Son, the New Adam, were humbly entering into our lives.

Is baptism used to forgive sins? Is it necessary for salvation? The criminal who was cruxified with Jesus was never baptised yet Jesus says he will be with him in paradise.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What century did those (NT canon and Assumption) occur? Because what the church fathers decided for the church is not a basis for catholics alone while the assumption is for Catholics alone.

It is for the Church. We consider you to be part of "the Church". So both of those are for you

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It is for the Church. We consider you to be part of "the Church". So both of those are for you

No the canon is accepted but the assumption is from many centuries after the reformation.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You are lost in your interpretations as usual and hatred for all things Catholic!

No, I'm just stating historical fact... pagan Roman Caesars were called Pontifex Maximus and so were their successors, the Popes. There is little to no difference between the two... why don't you at least try and explain away this historical fact instead of trying to divert attention from it by attacking me?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

hyperdulia Means Veneration, Look it up:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperdulia

So you use a temporal dictionary instead of the catholic dictionary to explain a term when it's convenient? Is the catholic dictionary unreliable?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Is baptism used to forgive sins? Is it necessary for salvation? The criminal who was cruxified with Jesus was never baptised yet Jesus says he will be with him in paradise.

Yes, Baptism forgives sins. Yes, it is necessary. The thief on the Cross desired baptism, and God in His mercy gave it to him.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No the canon is accepted but the assumption is from many centuries after the reformation.

The Assumption was only formally declared later on, it was accepted, because it was never questioned, from long time past. Same with the canon of Scripture-it was formalized at Trent, but declared in the 4th century, and used as is before that.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Do you know if the Jews burned incense?
Exodus 30:34

Yes, they also killed animals everyday too... part of the ceremonial system that was declared finished when Christ died and the veil was rent in two. So why doesn't the 'church' still sacrifice animals?

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, I'm just stating historical fact... pagan Roman Caesars were called Pontifex Maximus and so were their successors, the Popes. There is little to no difference between the two... why don't you at least try and explain away this historical fact instead of trying to divert attention from it by attacking me?

So, because one is true, and the other is true (both Caesar and the Pope being called the same thing), that doesn't mean one stemmed from the other.
ECR, your history speaks before you...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Which is different from Latria, which is the worship of God.

Hyperdulia or Latria both refer to WORSHIP... you say the 'church' doesn't worship Mary yet your encyclopedia says you do... so you defer with another term to show some kind of differentiation. So then, you worship Mary but Worship God, is that it?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yes, Baptism forgives sins. Yes, it is necessary. The thief on the Cross desired baptism, and God in His mercy gave it to him.

So as long as you desire to be baptized it's good enough?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The Assumption was only formally declared later on, it was accepted, because it was never questioned, from long time past. Same with the canon of Scripture-it was formalized at Trent, but declared in the 4th century, and used as is before that.

Sounds like the Catholic Church is built on "Assumptions" that cannot be justified other than just having blind faith that the pope is telling the truth.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So, because one is true, and the other is true (both Caesar and the Pope being called the same thing), that doesn't mean one stemmed from the other.
ECR, your history speaks before you...

What!? am I being punked right now... is there hidden camera's recording this?

How could an intelligent person make such a statement and believe it?

And what does 'my history speaks before me' even mean or even relevant to the facts presented?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yes, they also killed animals everyday too... part of the ceremonial system that was declared finished when Christ died and the veil was rent in two. So why doesn't the 'church' still sacrifice animals?

Because they sacrifice Jesus every Mass with the Eucharist.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Wouldnt Mary be considered as one among the likes of Noah, Daniel, or Job who (by their own righteousness could save themselves)?

This is what I am talking about

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Wouldnt Mary be considered as one among the likes of Noah, Daniel, or Job who (by their own righteousness could save themselves)?

This is what I am talking about

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

That's how people were saved before the law and the cross.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

As I understand, the Greek word there doesn't mean "on the contrary". It means something more like "yes, but". Nobody kept the word of God better than the Mother of God. As I understand it, it is Catholic teaching that Mary is more blessed for believing than she is for conceiving Christ. But the second is the result of the former. And obviously the womb where Christ resided is obviously blessed.

Moreover, this thread is about the oral tradition of Sola Scriptura.

Facts are getting in the way here... let's just move along to tradition land.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We worship God in Mary, but we don't worship Mary. Moses worshipped God in the Burning Bush, and took off his shoes out of respect for "holy ground".

Great point you bring up here... I don't seem to recall after this incident, Moses bowing and praying in front of a bush ever again to worship God. So please, explain your connection between the two... Moses communing with God at the burning bush and kneeling in front of a statue or image of Mary.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That's how people were saved before the law and the cross.

What I put that out there for was to show the following

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it,
they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Daniel (being one of three) who could save his own soul (above) by his own righteousness
is shown confessing his sin (and sin of his people) here below

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I (Daniel) was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

Showing that if only three could, one of the three is still shown confessing their sin (but could deliver their own souls by the other)