Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[patricius79]

Why did she offer the sin offering of 2 turtledoves?

I don't know about that issue. But I know it doesn't mean that God or His Mother sinned. I suppose it is similar to Christ being baptized with John's baptism of repentance, even though he had no sins to repent.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Here are some verses

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons

Lev 12:26 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female. And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

Which again she did according to the law of her that hath born a male or female here....

Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Neither of those verses say that the New Eve was born in sin, or that she sinned. Neither do they imply that the New Adam sinned. The second quotation is a quotation from Psalm 114 which says that there is a "generation of the righteous". So clearly the passage is referring to the many wicked in the world. It's not denying that there are some righteous. Likewise babies haven't sinned. They are another exception.

Mark 1:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:22 are two other examples where "all" does not mean every person.

We are talking about mary with those two verses. MARY WAS NOT BORN WITHOUT SIN!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Why did she offer the sin offering of 2 turtledoves?

Checkmate.

 

[patricius79]

We are talking about mary with those two verses. MARY WAS NOT BORN WITHOUT SIN!

I don't think the Bible says "Mary was not born without sin!".

 

[patricius79]

Checkmate.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...sin-offering-lk-224-lv-128-if-she-was-without

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't think the Bible says "Mary was not born without sin!".

You are absolutely correct. It is the Catholic church that says so.

Catholic Catechism, par. 494 below.
Catholic Catechism, par. 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.' [LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Revelation 19:16.] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]

 

[patricius79]

You are absolutely correct. It is the Catholic church that says so.

Catholic Catechism, par. 494 below.
Catholic Catechism, par. 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.' [LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Revelation 19:16.] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]

Amen to the Catechism. I think what you stated--that Mary was not born without sin--is not in Scripture.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Amen to the Catechism. I think what you stated--that Mary was not born without sin--is not in Scripture.

So...where did the catechism come from
And what does it mean when it says "free from all stain of original sin"?

 

[patricius79]

So...where did the catechism come from

The passage in the Catechism which you quoted is from the Vicar of Christ's dogmatic statement about the Assumption of Mary.

The Catechism itself, like the N.T. Canon, comes from Catholic Tradition.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The passage in the Catechism which you quoted is from the Vicar of Christ's dogmatic statement about the Assumption of Mary.

The Catechism itself, like the N.T. Canon, comes from Catholic Tradition.

And how did the Vicar of Christ come to that conclusion?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The passage in the Catechism which you quoted is from the Vicar of Christ's dogmatic statement about the Assumption of Mary.

The Catechism itself, like the N.T. Canon, comes from Catholic Tradition.

What century did those (NT canon and Assumption) occur? Because what the church fathers decided for the church is not a basis for catholics alone while the assumption is for Catholics alone.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I noticed that everyone dodged my comment about if Mary was born without sin why did God not make everyone born without sin and be done with it.

 

[patricius79]

Checkmate.

Reflecting on this... I think this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Sola Scriptura idea. Essentially what you are saying is that if Mary keeps the Law by making the sin offering after giving birth, then that means she was a sinner. But of course, the Bible doesn't say that. Nor does Jesus being baptized by John mean that Jesus was a sinner. I think that both the New Eve and Her Son, the New Adam, were humbly entering into our lives.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Reflecting on this... I think this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Sola Scriptura idea. Essentially what you are saying is that if Mary keeps the Law by making the sin offering after giving birth, then that means she was a sinner. But of course, the Bible doesn't say that. Nor does Jesus being baptized by John mean that Jesus was a sinner. I think that both the New Eve and Her Son, the New Adam, were humbly entering into our lives.

The point was that there was a commandment for the sin offering law after giving birth while there was no law condemning anyone in baptism.

 

[Root of Jesse]

False, all my prayers come from my heart.

So, unbiblical.

Show me one the biblical justification for this statement because I already have two that say she was not born without sin.

I already did. Angel Gabriel calls her by her title "Full of Grace".

Romans 3:22-23 There is no difference, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Rhetorical. But Mary was a sinner, she was created. God just saved her prior to her birth.

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is NO ONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. ALL have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is NO ONE who does good, not even one."

Again, of her own accord, no. God did the saving work.

More like a surrogate mother of God.

Where's your biblical basis for that?

Yes when you pray to God when you seek intercession. If you pray to anyone else (including Mary) it is "detestable to the lord" Deuteronomy 18:11

The word pray means to ask. So if I ask you to prove something I'm praying to you. Detestable to the lord? I don't think so. Asking someone to pray for you is not detestable to God. In fact, the Lord's prayer is intercessory, by nature.

Nobody says she was divine, and she is not worshiped.

Who are you talking to when you pray the "Hail Mary"!

We're honoring Mary. Jesus tells us not to be judgmental, too, but you're being judgmental...

"God has entrusted the keys and treasures of heaven to Mary."
Thomas Aquinas

"Who can worthily thank you and adequately praise you, oh Blessed Virgin, who by your fiat has saved a lost world."
St. Augustine

"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary."
Pope Pius IX

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone."
St. John Chrysostom

"No one ever finds Christ but with and through Mary. Whoever seeks Christ apart from Mary seeks Him in vain."
St. Bonaventure

"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity."
Pope Benedict XV

"Holy Scripture was written to Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary."
St. Bernard

"What will it cost you, oh Mary, to hear our prayer? What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned Queen at the right hand of your son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of hell, and you alone, oh Mary, save us from the hands of Satan."
Pope Pius Xl

"Mary, not one of your devout servants has ever perished: may I, too, Be saved!"
Pope Benedict XV

Sounds a lot like worship to me.

To you, but not to us. But to us, you're being judgmental, which Christ told us not to be...judging people's hearts is for God alone.

The same reason why everyone else is not born sinless. If this was the case, why would God not make everyone born sinless and be done with it?

Mary is not everyone else. She is Jesus's mother, Jesus, the son of God. Not just anyone. Do you believe God broke any of his own commandments?

 

[Root of Jesse]

She was not BORN sinless by grace. She was CREATED sinless because it was before the fall. Christianity 101.[emoji19]

So was Mary. Catholicism 101.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why did she offer the sin offering of 2 turtledoves?

Because she's human, and that was the law.

 

[patricius79]

What century did those (NT canon and Assumption) occur? Because what the church fathers decided for the church is not a basis for catholics alone while the assumption is for Catholics alone.

Both the doctrine of the Assumption and the doctrine of the N.T. Canon come from God through Catholic Tradition. I don't know when the Assumption was first preached explicitly by the Papacy. The Canon was set by the Catholic Church as I understand it in the 4th century by Pope St. Damasus, though it wasn't dogmatic until the Council of Trent in the 1600s I believe.

One of the problems with the S.S. idea is that the Canon is not in Scripture.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

One of the problems with the S.S. idea is that the Canon is not in Scripture.

What do you mean? The canon is scripture and it's the point of reference any doctrine must be based on. In fact it's SS that makes anything else suspect and speculation.