Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Root of Jesse]

But you are praying directly to Mary.

Where does it say, anywhere that intercessory prayer is forbidden?

If you were to pray to Mary it would assume three things:

1. She has the ability to hear your prayers. If people all around the world are praying to her, how can she hear all of them at the same time unless she had the power to be everywhere at once?

As shown in Revelation, those in heaven do hear our prayers. How is a mystery, which I would love to experience when I get there, assuming I get there.

2. She has to have the wisdom to best respond to everyone's prayers.

Revelation also shows us that those in heaven have the wisdom of God. Besides, we ask Mary to intercede for us. God is the one answering them...

3. She has to have the power to respond to everyone's prayers

She has the power to bring our prayers to God, that's all that really matters. Mary doesn't have any power not given to her by God.

There is only ONE being who can do this and I don't think it is her. Also, let's look at what the bible says about praying to the dead.

Yes, only one who can do this, and Mary knows right where to go with our prayers. And if she goes to God with our prayers, that tells us she's not dead.

Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consulting with the dead is different than asking the living to pray for us.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

God does know what we need before we do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pray. But again, I would point you to Revelation, where those in heaven are alive, worshiping God and listening to our prayers.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

We pray for the dead, but not to them.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?

You're right, those in hell will not be able to hear or answer our prayers. But those in heaven do care, and just as we can console Jesus, and he us, so can those in heaven.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You left Catholicism because of a prayer that people pray, but is not required to be prayed? Wow. Talk about weak faith...

No, the various idolaries as I have stated before.

I have a strong faith I dont need idols

 

[Root of Jesse]

No they arent, I have never met a single catholic on fire for Jesus in all my years having two large families that are Catholic and having grown up around them, I found Jesus Christ outside of that.

I'm sure you've met all the Catholics on our planet. Pope Francis is on fire for Jesus. I remember something Jesus said about a prophet in his own place being ineffective, so there you go with your family...

 

[Goatee]

No, the various idolaries as I have stated before.

I have a strong faith I dont need idols

Obviously you didnt know the Catholic church as you should have done then.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I'm sure you've met all the Catholics on our planet. Pope Francis is on fire for Jesus. I remember something Jesus said about a prophet in his own place being ineffective, so there you go with your family...

No I just never met one

 

[patricius79]

Why is it so hard to understand that the issue is not Sola scriptura. It is that the word of God CANNOT contradict itself. If there is a catholic oral tradition that does not line up with the written one it CANNOT be from the Holy Spirit!

I think that there is an oral tradition which contradicts the Sacred Catholic Book (the Bible), then it is not a Catholic oral Tradition.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, the various idolaries as I have stated before.

I have a strong faith I dont need idols

I don't need idols, nor do I have idols, nor does the Catholic Church have idols or promote idolatry. So, you left Catholicism for a misperception, nonetheless.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Obviously you didnt know the Catholic church as you should have done then.

Well, we know they are undivided and never mistaken so I met all imposters

 

[Fireinfolding]

Well, I leave off this conversation so as to not feed any further in the off topic stuff.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No I just never met one

So, in your (limited) experience. Big difference. You made it seem like you had met a lot of Catholics. My parish is full of activity every day, even on Christ's birthday, not just Sundays and Wednesday evenings (and closed on Christmas).

 

[patricius79]

Yes, but it is called "oral tradition" plenty of times on these forums. Since Catholics ought to call it Sacred Tradition, as you note, and Protestants don't define doctrine by any oral traditions, I agree that to use the term at all is wrong.

I think that you just used the term "oral traditions", in making the claim that Protestants don't define doctrine by any oral traditions. I find that all the arguments against the Catholic Church's teachings are oral traditions.

 

[Albion]

Oh. I think I see what you are dealing with now. It is possible to edit one's post. In the meanwhile, someone else can "copy" it and before they get through "pasting" it onto their own reply, the first party edits his own. I don't see why anyone would accuse another person of doing anything devious in that situation, though.

This, however, wouldn't mean that you'd added to anything that they wrote. You merely didn't get it all. Big deal. While I too have heard from opponents who complained that I quoted only the part of their message that I was interested in, there's no merit to that complaint unless the meaning of the part that's quoted is changed.

 

[Goatee]

Did you notice that we were talking about something entirely different when you thought you'd switch to this topic because you see that I'm an Anglican?

You Said:

Certainly not. Have you forgotten the operable premises--

1. "Word of God" means customs, legends, sanctioned opinion, etc., not the Bible.
2. If it's NOT in the Bible, this means that the Bible approves of it.

Is that the same as women priests in the Anglican church then? Not in Scripture but Bible approved?

Can you answer that then? I guess not as you can see that you only pick and choose what suits your own beliefs while attacking the Catholic church! That is so hypocritical!

 

[Root of Jesse]

The third part of the Hail Mary prayer is not from the Bible and is, in fact, in direct contradiction to Scriptural truth: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

So, True or False question...All your prayers come directly from the Bible?

This last part of the Hail Mary prayer has three unbiblical parts to it. First, Mary is not and never was “holy.”

Mary is in heaven, therefore she's holy.

Mary was a human being who was born, as all humans are, with a sin nature and who recognized that she needed a Savior.

She had a Savior, who saved her before she was born.

In fact, the very passage used in the Hail Mary, known as Mary’s Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55), contains the declaration “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,” a clear indication that she understood her need for a Savior from sin. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27-28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).

Full of Grace is the title, and if you're full, there's no room for anything else.

The second unbiblical part of the Hail Mary is addressing Mary as the “Mother of God.” Mary was the human mother of the human Jesus Christ, who was indeed God incarnate. But she was not the mother of God, neither is she the ”queen of heaven,” another title given to her by the Catholic Church which has no basis in Scripture. God doesn’t have a mother, nor does He have a queen. He is an eternal, infinite Being, uncreated and unborn, self-sufficient and self-sustaining.

Jesus was one person, with two natures, one divine and one human. Mary didn't give birth to a nature, she gave birth to a person, who is God. Mother of God is appropriate.

The third unbiblical statement in the Hail Mary is the plea for her to “pray for us sinners.” Here we see the unbiblical practice of praying to Mary to intercede with God for us. First, we do not need another intercessor with God. Christ is the only intercessor we need. Through Jesus and Him alone, we have direct access to the Father. Christ alone mediates and intercedes between God and man. “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). Prayer to anyone other than God alone is anti-biblical. Praying to Mary or petitioning her to pray for us is against the Scriptures. Prayer is an act of worship. When we pray to God, we are admitting that we need His help. Directing our prayers to anyone other than God is robbing God of the glory that is His alone, something God hates and will not tolerate (Isaiah 42:8).

Intercessory prayer is Biblical. Whether we need an intercessor or not.

While Mary was certainly a godly young woman greatly blessed in that she was chosen to bear the Savior of the world, she was not in any way divine, nor was she sinless, nor is she to be worshipped, revered, venerated, or prayed to.

Nobody says she was divine, and she is not worshiped. There's nothing wrong with honoring her for who she is, though. Regarding sinlessness, God made Eve sinless, too, so why could he not make Mary sinless?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I am in the same denomination as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Timothy....non-denominational. ...and to answer your question, I don't think there is anything specifically that says women can be pastors or priests.

So you're part of the Universal Church. Welcome. And you're right. There's nothing that says women can be pastors or priests.

 

[Goatee]

So you're part of the Universal Church. Welcome. And you're right. There's nothing that says women can be pastors or priests.

Why Albion is spouting about Catholics presumable teaching of things that are not scripturaly based while his denomination sees it fit to allow women priests! How hypocritical is that!!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why is it so hard to understand that the issue is not Sola scriptura. It is that the word of God CANNOT contradict itself. If there is a catholic oral tradition that does not line up with the written one it CANNOT be from the Holy Spirit!

The Word of God cannot contradict itself, right. But there is no Sacred Tradition that contradicts Scripture. I'm sure some run-o-the-mill oral traditions might, but they aren't doctrinal.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes, but it is called "oral tradition" plenty of times on these forums. Since Catholics ought to call it Sacred Tradition, as you note, and Protestants don't define doctrine by any oral traditions, I agree that to use the term at all is wrong.

Oral tradition is a different thing.

 

[Albion]

Regarding sinlessness, God made Eve sinless, too, so why could he not make Mary sinless?

Did someone say he couldn't have? I think the point was that there is no indication that he did.

But it does look like you have put your finger right square on the divide between Catholics and other Christians. Is it sufficient for the creation of a dogma merely to say that God "could have" done anything?

 

[Albion]

The Word of God cannot contradict itself, right. But there is no Sacred Tradition that contradicts Scripture. I'm sure some run-o-the-mill oral traditions might, but they aren't doctrinal.

Again, is it sufficient that doctrine X doesn't CONTRADICT Scripture? There are all sorts of ideas that God did not deign to reveal to us in Scripture, so we are just at liberty to dogmatize on them?