Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Matthew 24:36-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

People seem to leave out a very important fact in this verse....Marrying and giving in marraige.


Who was getting married?


Genesis 6:1 "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,"

Genesis 6:2 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

The "sons of God" are angelic beings, or angels, and their offspring are called "the Nephilim". These angelic beings, or angels saw the daughters of men were beautiful. These are the fallen angels of Jude 6, who followed Satan in his fall in the "world that was", which is the first earth age. Jude 6 reads; "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

We see that it is these fallen angels that are already reserved undo judgment, and continuing to follow Satan's, in their coming to earth, and intermixing or marring Adamic daughters. This may be strange to you, However, it is taught by Paul in the New Testament. Paul was warning Woman in I Corinthians 11:10; "For this cause ought the woman have power [a sign of authority] on her head, because of the angels."

The protection, or power of authority Paul warned against was from the angels. Though many translate this covering to be "hair", however, it should be veil. That veil is the "Holy Spirit". Because in the latter days it is going to be just as it was in the days of Noah, and friend we are in the latter days. If both Jesus and Paul warned the Christians to be alert of this fact, we had better be alert of it.


Matthew 24:38 "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,"

They were eating and drinking, and marrying, and giving in marriage to the fallen angels. If you think that is not possible, that is exactly as it was in Noah's day as he entered into the ark. Friend that is what is starting to happen, where even churches are catering to Sodomy, and all forms of ancient Baalism, and they think it is of God, they are accepting it, because they are ignorant of God's holy word. Pray to God that you are not of that mind set, for it is part of the mark of the beast. No the mark of the beast is not any form of electronic devise, but a mind set that conforms to the doctrines of devils.

Before Christ returns the entire world will accept the doctrines of this locust army of fallen angels, because they will be taught in their church houses to do so. If you are not one of the elect, you will accept these angels as being from God, and you will agree with everything that they say, for if you do not have the seal of God in your forehead, you mind, God will allow the delusion to come over your mind. It is not to late to know the truth now, but that time is getting near when it will not be your choice.
Just before Jesus Christ return to earth these angels will be working miracles, with their leader, Satan, and this is possible because they are supernatural, just like Satan is. They are not of flesh our human substance.

What happened in Genesis 6 is going to happen again, so make a point of getting to know the chapter

N2thelight, I agree with the main thrust of your post. There may be a few on this thread who believe what scripture says on the topic of fallen angels, but most reject it outright or just can’t accept the supernatural aspect of what is being said in Gen. 6. I am convinced as I believe you are this is a major part of what the passage “as in the days of Noah” means for us today. Some hinted it has a part in the dinosaur discussion that was on this thread. It has a lot to do with the current research and work with DNA and genes. This topic answers many otherwise unanswerable questions in scripture. How many people can tell you where demons came from? The book of Enoch tells us clearly of their origin. Thanks for speaking out on this very relevant topic. God Bless

PS: I believe this topic has the answer for the reason God had entire groups of people destroyed in the OT men, women, children and sometimes even the animals. Also the main reason for the flood.

 

[Psalm3704]

Note that the scriptures themselves don't ever say or require that Jesus is going to take the church to the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac didn't take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob didn't take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the church in the Father's house, instead of in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).



In the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).



Note that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).



Note that in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ's 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return, for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).



Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).



Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).



Are you thinking of the following verses?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If so, note that this refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

For example, the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.



Are you thinking of the following verse?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first . . .

If so, note that this doesn't say "by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31. Jesus will send forth his angels at that time in order to gather together (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) all the "caught up" believers (1 Thessalonians 4:17) in myriad different places in the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31) to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus will be, before he lands on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).



Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).



Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 (like Matthew 13:49-50) won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).



Those who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.



Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 13:6 (and Revelation 12:12) will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

You're getting better but still no cigar! Getting 12 rebuttals out of 50, you're still not close to batting 300. Here try again. Another new batch of 50.

*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation

1. The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels. The Holy Ones are arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS (which is the Church). Revelation 19:8. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 3:18.

2. Jesus opened His ministry in his first coming in Luke 4:18-19, quoting from the prophet Isaiah. He stopped reading AFTER saying THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD in the MIDDLE of a sentence, and SHUT the book. Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

3. In Isaiah 61:1-2, the prophecy of Isaiah FINISHES where Jesus LEFT OFF. After “the acceptable year of the Lord” (GRACE--THE AGE of the Church) is the DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. AFTER the Church age the tribulation will come--“the day of vengeance of our God.” We understand HOW the Church will be Raptured, then THAT DAY will come--and it’s Pre-Tribulation.

4. Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me (the trumpet voice of Jesus--seeRevelation 1:10); which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come HEREAFTER.” “After this” and “hereafter” are the same Greek word “meta tauta” which means AFTER THESE THINGS. After WHAT things? AFTER the THINGS of the SEVEN CHURCHES (the complete “Church Age”) in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus will call “Come up hither” with His TRUMPET VOICE--the trump of God--and the Church, like John, will go through an OPEN DOOR in heaven in a PRE-TRIB Rapture! The structure is HIGHLY EVIDENT! Plus, the Holy Spirit REPEATED “hereafter” TWO TIMES to make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR! Pre-Trib!

5. A door is SHUT BEHIND some believers in Isaiah 26:19-20. Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive. “Come, My people, enter you into your chambers (mansions), and SHUT your DOOR about you; HIDE yourself as it were for A LITTLE MOMENT (7 years) until THE INDIGNATION be overpast.” The Church will enter heaven for 7 years, a little moment, until the INDIGNATION (God’s wrath upon the rebellious world) is done. The Rapture of the Church is Pre-Trib. How can people miss this?

6. All believers in the Church must APPEAR before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) This event is NEVER mentioned in the events of the Second Coming, when Jesus sets His feet on the earth.

7. The 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5 are REPRESENTATIVE of a Raptured and glorified Church.

8. The 24 Elders CANNOT be angels. Angels DON’T WEAR crowns. Angels DON’T sit with God to rule and reign. We MUST define the 24 ELDERS by their SPECIFIC descriptions.

9. Elders--a term used for Church leadership.

10. Elders, the Greek “presbuteros.” Church terminology--the “Presbytery.”

11. The number 24. In 1 Chronicles 24:1-31, King David divided the Priesthood into 24 COURSES because they’d grown so large. When 24 LEADERS of the COURSES met BEFORE David’s throne, the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD was REPRESENTED. The 24 ELDERS represent the ENTIRE CHURCH before God’s throne. This is a picture of the Church as PRIESTS.

12. The number 24 (part 2). The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. A total of 24.

13. The Elders SIT. The work of the Church on earth in “the age of God’s Grace” is done.

14. The Elders sit on THRONES--the Church is seated on THRONES as KINGS.

15. The Elders wear “SPECIFIC” WHITE RAIMENT. The Church is promised white garments. Revelation 3:4-5. Revelation 3:18. That our garments (and ourselves) are to be washed and spotless are seen inEphesians 5:26-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:14. Jude 1:23 and Revelation 1:5.

16. The Elders wear CROWNS, which are STEPHANOS, given for OVERCOMING and GAINING A VICTORY (for finishing the race). The same kind of CROWNS are given to the Church. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27.1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 1:12. 1 Peter 5:4. Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11.

17. The Elders wear crowns OF GOLD. Gold shows KINGSHIP. This shows the Church as KINGS.

18. In Revelation 5:1-14, the Elders sing a NEW SONG of THEIR REDEMPTION (as seen in the King James Version--which is translated from a MORE RELIABLE old manuscript). The Elders sing of being SAVED by the blood of Jesus.

19. The Elders are saved “out of” (“called-out of”) every kindred, tongue, people and nation on earth. The Church is predominantly Gentile, “called-out of” the world.

20. In Ezekiel and Daniel we find SIMILAR DESCRIPTIONS of heaven as shown in the Revelation. EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. The Old Testament prophets did NOT see 24 Elders! Why? The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

21. The Great Multitude of Revelation 7:9-10 are NOT the Church. WHY? Their descriptions are DIFFERENT.

22. The Great Multitude STANDS before God’s throne. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SIT on thrones.

23. The Great Multitude wear white robes (the Greek “stole”). The 24 ELDERS wear white raiment (the Greek “himation”). There IS a DIFFERENCE!

24. The Great Multitude hold PALM BRANCHES in their hands (like Israel did when they celebrated Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey). The 24 ELDERS have “stephonos” CROWNS (given for “winning a race” and “obtaining a victory”) upon their heads.

25. The Great Multitude CRY WITH A LOUD VOICE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SING A NEW SONG.

26. The Great Multitude come OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION (the LAST half of Daniel’s 70th week). The 24 ELDERS come out of the AGE OF THE CHURCH.

27. The Great Multitude SERVE GOD day and night in His TEMPLE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church RULE and REIGN with Jesus.

28. God will spread HIS TABERNACLE over the Great Multitude--another Israeli and Old Testament reference.

29. God wipes the tears out of the eyes of the Great Multitude. WHY? To console them after they have died a martyr’s death in the tribulation. The Church will rejoice with joy unspeakable at the time of the Pre-Trib rapture. 1 Thessalonians 2:19.

30. The group pictured on the sea of glass mingled with fire before God’s throne in Revelation 15:2-4 are NOT the Church.

31. These people stand on a sea of glass MINGLED WITH FIRE. FIRE is a Biblical symbol which shows they stand at God’s throne after having died in the time of His judgment. The 24 ELDERS are present in heaven on a sea of glass LIKE UNTO FINE CRYSTAL. Pure--no spot, wrinkle or blemish. No fire. The 24 ELDERS have NOT come out of a time of God’s judgment.

32. The group before the throne in Revelation 15:1-8 obtained victory over the beast when they died and went to heaven. The Church will NEVER MEET the beast.

33. The group before the throne in Revelation 15:1-8 have the HARPS OF GOD. The 24 ELDERS have NO HARPS, but they DO wear “stephanos” CROWNS as a REWARD for OVERCOMING.

34. The group before the throne, in Revelation 15:1-8, SING THE SONG OF MOSES--which again shows the Israeli and Old Testament emphasis. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SING A NEW SONG of their REDEMPTION through the blood of Jesus(obtained during the age of God’s GRACE in the Church).

35. ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture position shows a DISTINCTION between the “the coming SEVEN YEAR tribulation” and “tribulation in general”--a “general” trouble which PLAGUES the world RIGHT NOW, and which EVERYONE experiences. Daniel 9:27 --the 70th week, DEFINES the “tribulation period.” Romans 8:18, defines the “general” suffering and tribulation of this PRESENT TIME in the Church Age; Jesus also mentions it in John 16:33. There’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE between what happens now--and what WILL happen in the seven year tribulation!

36. The “time of tribulation” is properly understood in the Pre-Tribulation view as a PREPARATION for the restoration of Israel. Deuteronomy 4:29-30. Jeremiah 30:4-11. Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel 12:1-2.

37. The “tribulation” is separated into categories--“the beginnings of sorrows”--first three and a half years; “the Abomination of Desolation”--Mid-Trib; “the great tribulation”--last three and a half years, and the SECOND COMING itself. Daniel 9:27. Matthew 24:4-14. Matthew 24:15-20. Matthew 24:21-28. Matthew 24:29-31.

38. The SEVEN-SEALED SCROLL in Revelation parallels what Jesus described as “the beginning of sorrows.” False Christs-- Matthew 24:4 and antichrist-- Revelation 6:1-2. Wars and rumors of wars-- Matthew 24:6-7 and Revelation 6:3-4. Famines-- Matthew 24:7 and Revelation 6:5-6. Pestilences-- Matthew 24:7 andRevelation 6:7-8. Martyrdom of saints-- Matthew 24:9-14 and Revelation 6:9-11. Earthquakes in diverse places-- Matthew 24:7 and Revelation 6:12-17.

39. Understanding the “birth pangs” symbol. The START of the “tribulation” brings the earth into ACTUAL LABOR. Then WHY do we see “birth pang” SIGNS right now, Pre-Trib? Remember that a pregnant woman KNOWS her labor is “near” WELL BEFORE the ACTUAL ONSET of it. The world of today is exceedingly swollen in pregnancy--ready to give birth the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Like a woman may have Braxton Hicks pains, contractions that are NOT ACTUAL LABOR--so also, we see the world doing the same thing (as the ACTUAL LABOR of the “tribulation” draws VERY NEAR). Every time an earthquake hits, which had been DAILY here lately, I think, “Oh, here’s another Braxton Hicks, and my bags are packed--I’m ready to move out of here.”

40. The “Abomination of Desolation” in Matthew 24:15-20 parallels Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 12:6 and verses Revelation 12:13-17.

41. The “great tribulation” of Matthew 24:20-28 parallels Daniel 12:1, plus Revelation 8 and 9 and 16 (omitting some details from Revelation 11, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18--it’s too confusing, for the purpose of this list, to offer a possible chronology.)

42. The “Second Coming” in Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Isaiah 63:1-6, Zechariah 14:1-7 and Zechariah 14:12-15, and Revelation 19:1-21.

43. What is the purpose of “the tribulation? 2 Thessalonians 1:6 informs the Church that those who have TROUBLED us, who have PERSECUTED us, MARTYRED some of us, and have PLAGUED us with all manner of ill will, are to receive from God RECOMPENSE (repay)--and vengeance--for what they do. The enemies will be recompensed with “tribulation” (in the time of God’s WRATH) for having given the Church severe trouble while she (Jesus’ Bride) was on the earth. The enemies also receive judgment for standing against Israel.

44. The tribulation is called a DAY OF WRATH in the Bible (Zephaniah 1:15), but the Bible also says “God has NOT APPOINTED us (the Church) to wrath.” (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

45. The tribulation is called a DAY OF WRATH, but the Bible says Jesus “has DELIVERED us FROM the wrath to come”--(delivering the Church FROM the tribulation period). 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

46. In scripture, the seven year tribulation is called THE DAY OF THE LORD, THAT DAY, THE INDIGNATION, THE DAYS OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. And the Bible also clearly teaches that the tribulation will FALL upon UNBELIEVERS, while the Church ESCAPES “that day.” 1 Thessalonians 5:2-10.

47. Contrary to the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath interpretations, the Pre-Trib POSITION offers an ADEQUATE EXPLANATION for the BEGINNING of the tribulation in Revelation 6. Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath POSITIONS are clearly REFUTED by the PLAIN TEACHINGS of scripture, which SHOW that THE WRATH of God begins LONG BEFORE the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11!

48. THE WRATH of God BEGINS with the FIRST SEAL on the SCROLL (opened AT THE THRONE OF GOD in His series of JUDGMENTS). The scroll reveals calamitous events that will transpire on the earth. (1. The antichrist. 2. IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED, in quick succession, by wars, famines, pestilences, death and hell, martyrdom of tribulation saints, a huge earthquake--plus fearful sights and signs in heaven.)

49. The tribulation is NOT “days as usual.” 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 clearly SHOWS “the day of the Lord” as SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. Revelation 6:1-8 clearly shows that even as the antichrist promises “peace,” he will be unable do as he says.

50. In the opening of the 4th SEAL of Revelation 6:8, it’s revealed that ONE-FOURTH of the earth’s population WILL DIE. At today’s count of nearly 7 billion people--ONE-QUARTER is a DEATH TALLY of 1.75 BILLION! That’s a HUGE amount of death--much LARGER than the worst catastrophe we can name in our current hour. It’s definitely NOT “business as usual” for the tribulation world.












.

 

[Fusion77]

Unsupported opinion is worthless and is actually detrimental to your case.
Yes, there are now many preparations for war. We know Iran has nuke weapons and the means to deliver them. But Bible prophecy is clear, there will be no war. Ezekiel 7:14 The wrath of God will fall upon the whole lot of them. And that could be very soon!

Unsupported opinion is worthless and is actually detrimental to your case.
Yes, there are now many preparations for war. We know Iran has nuke weapons and the means to deliver them. But Bible prophecy is clear, there will be no war. Ezekiel 7:14 The wrath of God will fall upon the whole lot of them. And that could be very soon!

So because God has spoken this through His word, to a prophet. This is unsupported?

 

[Fusion77]

What is the spiritual profitability of sharing such a vague prophecy? (There will be a war soon) How is that calling the saints to faithfulness in their walk with Christ? How does that encourage people to Scripture? Please be careful.

There are lots of wars going on as we speak and these wars may well escalate. Anyone can say that it looks like there will be a big war soon. The Middle East is like a small fire in a dry forest.

When you keep bringing up Zechariah 4, asking if people know what it is about and then saying they won't understand because God kept it obscured all this time for a reason--that may come across as insulting. Perhaps a new approach?

Please keep in mind, even if you have received some prophecy, it doesn't mean that God wants you to share it. I've had two memorable words of knowledge that proved true within two minutes and within two months, but there was no point in sharing them before they were confirmed. Even afterwards, there was limited value in sharing (one involved a friend's untimely death). Maybe God was just helping me to handle the grief better by giving me a heads up. I really don't know for sure. If God is speaking to you, there is the possibility that He is preparing you without giving you a responsibility to share it.

We can help encourage the Church by using clear Scripture to teach people about the Tribulation. Even if we think we have extrabiblical Tribulation prophecies, it doesn't mean we should be quick to share. Those may be for us only. And it's better to be wrong in our minds only than to share and be a false prophet. We really don't want to be false prophets.

You may be right. Maybe it's just not the time yet.

 

[Fusion77]

You may be right. Maybe it's just not the time yet.

One of the good things it would do is to give them an understanding of the end time events, I guess. That way they would be aware of what's going on. I keep thinking of Amos 3:7. Because I have information it seemed right for me to try and share it. To allow people to see, we're further along than they may think. That God has spoken to someone through His word saying He is going to bring a great calamity on the earth soon. It's in the bible.

Of course, this could be just for me right now, it's very possible He doesn't want many others to know.

 

[Fusion77]

Unsupported opinion is worthless and is actually detrimental to your case.
Yes, there are now many preparations for war. We know Iran has nuke weapons and the means to deliver them. But Bible prophecy is clear, there will be no war. Ezekiel 7:14 The wrath of God will fall upon the whole lot of them. And that could be very soon!

What I'm trying to say is that Zerubbabel is a type of 1 of the witnesses in Haggai 2:20-23. This can be proven through scripture. That message is NOT to the Zerubbabel of the second temple era. That Zerubbabel is long gone. This message is to His servant (prophet) Zerubbabel. How do we know this isn't to the Zerubbabel of that era? Because God has NOT yet shaken BOTH the heavens and the earth. We know this is YET a future event. We know that from Hebrews 12:26-27. Look very closely at Haggai 2:20-23, this describes a war, but it is God who shakes the heavens and the earth...so it is the judgement of God through a war.

 

[Postvieww]

Riberra, lets look at it in a different way.

You said the rapture is post tribulation. You said 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the rapture. You said the trump of God is the last trump. You said the last trump happens at Matthew 24:29-31. Okay lets look at what the bible say.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's an archangel. (One archangel, no other angels).
B) In Matthew 24:31, He sends His angels. (Many angels, no archangel).

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's "the" trumpet of God.
B) In matthew 24:31, there's "a" trumpet.

Riberra, where's the trumpet of God in Matthew 24:31? Please show us.






.

Riberra, lets look at it in a different way.

You said the rapture is post tribulation. You said 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the rapture. You said the trump of God is the last trump. You said the last trump happens at Matthew 24:29-31. Okay lets look at what the bible say.

Psalm

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

While this passage only says “ a great sound of a trumpet” it matters not that it is not specifically called the “trump of God”, who’s trumpet could it be other than God’s?

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's an archangel. (One archangel, no other angels).

B) In Matthew 24:31, He sends His angels. (Many angels, no archangel).

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's "the" trumpet of God.

B) In matthew 24:31, there's "a" trumpet.

A) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 there is no angel arch or otherwise

B) in 1 Thess 4:16 there is a voice of the archangel


A) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 there is no mention of the Lord descending with a shout.

B) in 1 Thess 4: 16 The Lord descends with a shout


A) in 1 Thess 4:17 we are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord

B) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 Lord not mentioned , no one caught up


Did I just prove these are different events? I think even you will agree I did not, they are the same event. Identical wording is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing!

Riberra, where's the trumpet of God in Matthew 24:31? Please show us.

They are all God’s trumpet’s.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Debunked!

 

[BABerean2]

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was indeed typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But note that per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

*******



Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

*******



When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he is referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.



Note that the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

As usual, you have done a masterful job of forcing the text to fit your viewpoint of endtime events.
Although you have rightfully rejected the pretrib doctrine, you still hold to much what comes directly from the "Left Behind" series.

It is revealing to see that much of this "story" comes from page 301 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", written by the Jesuit Emanual Lacunza and published by Edward Irving in 1827.
This book is the original source of much of the "story" you are promoting.

"But before passing to any other reflection, it is to be believed that St. Paul did
not speak here of that individual temple which in his time was standing, otherwise he would
have proved a bad prophet, because he could not be ignorant that that very temple of God was
shortly to be destroyed, according to the prophecy in the ninth chapter of Daniel, which is
very clear, and also the prophecy of Christ himself, who said, speaking of the temple, “there
shall not be left one stone upon another which shall not be thrown down,” Matt. xxiv. 2.
Wherefore if the apostle spake of the temple of Jerusalem, it is indubitable that he spake of
another temple still future, and what is that? It is, they say with great formality, that which
Antichrist shall build when he establisheth his court in Jerusalem.

And whence is this knowledge derived? We know that there are no other archives
from whence information of the future can be drawn, save the revelation contained in the
Holy Bible. In what passage then is this notice to be met with? In this very passage, haply of
St. Paul, after it hath been understood and accommodated to that view of the subject? It will
hardly be believed, yet true it is, that there is not another passage pointed to, or which can be
pointed to, because there are not any such in all the Holy Bible: but there are many which
assert quite the contrary. Look at this which is worth a thousand, in the ninth chapter of the
prophet Daniel, who speaking of Messiah’s death and its results, hath this, “And after threescore
and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself: and the people of the prince
that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a
flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined, even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” If the desolation of Jerusalem and her
temple is to continue until the consummation and the end, at which time shall Antichrist build
the city and the temple which the Romans have desolated? If before the consummation and
the end, he will falsify the prophecy, and this were indeed one of his greatest acts of prowess.
If after, then, shall it be still a greater prowess, as he must escape from hell in order to build
the temple and the city. See you not, Sir, with your eyes the hypothesis and its
inconclusiveness?

Even putting the case, and for a moment granting that this perfidious Jew Antichrist,
should be he who in other times shall build the temple of Jerusalem, it is asked, when this
temple is built by Antichrist, shall it be really a temple of God? This seemeth a hard thing to
be allowed. How shall it be a temple of the living God, how shall we give that name to an
edifice erected by the greatest enemy of God, not for God, but for himself? How shall God
dwell in that temple so as that it shall with propriety deserve the name of God’s temple? If it
do not then deserve this name, it follows that the apostle is not speaking of that imaginary
temple, for he says distinctly that the man of sin, shall sit in the temple of God.

Then of what temple of God speaketh St. Paul? Those who say that the text is so very
clear, and by its clearness decisive of the issue, ought to take charge of all these
embarrassments. But, as for the right understanding of the word falling away, we found it
necessary to consult St. Paul himself in other passages of his epistles, so in like manner, in
order to understand the word temple of God, we ought to consult the same apostle. "

This doctrine was presented to the Albury and Powerscourt Conferences by Edward Irving.
Dr. Charles Ryrie, former professor at Dallas Theological, says that John Nelson Darby became interested in prophecy at these conferences. And as they say, the rest is history.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Left Behind or Led Astray?
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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[BABerean2]

N2thelight, I agree with the main thrust of your post. There may be a few on this thread who believe what scripture says on the topic of fallen angels, but most reject it outright or just can’t accept the supernatural aspect of what is being said in Gen. 6. I am convinced as I believe you are this is a major part of what the passage “as in the days of Noah” means for us today. Some hinted it has a part in the dinosaur discussion that was on this thread. It has a lot to do with the current research and work with DNA and genes. This topic answers many otherwise unanswerable questions in scripture. How many people can tell you where demons came from? The book of Enoch tells us clearly of their origin. Thanks for speaking out on this very relevant topic. God Bless

PS: I believe this topic has the answer for the reason God had entire groups of people destroyed in the OT men, women, children and sometimes even the animals. Also the main reason for the flood.

Pastor Mike Hoggard has presented quite a bit of evidence related to this topic.

It also has a modern application.

Technology now exists that can produce a vaccine capable of altering a person's DNA.

Lets say for example that those in control decide that they need some docile workers...

And of course you would be required to take the vaccine to make us all "safer".

.

 

[Psalm3704]

A) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 there is no angel arch or otherwise

B) in 1 Thess 4:16 there is a voice of the archangel


A) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 there is no mention of the Lord descending with a shout.

B) in 1 Thess 4: 16 The Lord descends with a shout


A) in 1 Thess 4:17 we are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord

B) in 1 Corin 15:51-52 Lord not mentioned , no one caught up

Did I just prove these are different events? I think even you will agree I did not, they are the same event. Identical wording is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing!

Why don't you scroll back several pages and read what I've told Riberra and everyone else about 1 Corinthians 15. It's not the same as 1 Thess 4.

This argument you just made would be similar to you trying to argue to everyone the real rapture is pretrib when we all already know you're a posttribber. (EVERYONE KNEW EXCEPT YOU!). Dumbest debunk ever attempted. It could of been avoided had you just read a few pages back.

Your debunk just exploded in your face!






.

 

[Psalm3704]

They are all God’s trumpet’s.

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

You must think there's 7 archangels right?

DEBUNKED!

Worst nonsense I've ever heard!










.

 

[Luke17:37]

One of the good things it would do is to give them an understanding of the end time events, I guess. That way they would be aware of what's going on. I keep thinking of Amos 3:7. Because I have information it seemed right for me to try and share it. To allow people to see, we're further along than they may think. That God has spoken to someone through His word saying He is going to bring a great calamity on the earth soon. It's in the bible.

Of course, this could be just for me right now, it's very possible He doesn't want many others to know.

A good understanding of the Tribulation and Return of Christ can be obtained through the careful study of Scripture. Nothing else is needed. It doesn't mean we understand everything, but we can understand the basic framework that can encourage us to be prepared to overcome, should we someday find ourselves living in the Tribulation. Right now, our understanding can be like a page out of a child's coloring book. When the artist starts to color the flower purple, we'll see it better than when there several options on the table (e.g., yellow, blue, pink, red, white, etc.).

The 100% dependable prophets are those God used to write Scripture.

John 15:15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Since Jesus has shared all the important things the Father gave Him for us to know (now), it means there isn't a critical piece that He hasn't shared. It is unbiblical to assume that a pre-tribulation rapture can come, for example, on the basis of "God can do anything", since Jesus doesn't show this from His words in the gospels or His inspired words which make up the Bible. A Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church would be a pretty major thing! God would have clearly delineated it in the Bible from the Second Coming. He doesn't!

It's okay to have theories about gray areas as long as we don't hold dogmatically to them.

Whatever we do share should aid people in understanding the clear framework God constructed through Scripture. That's what I'm doing every time I paste Matthew 24 and Luke 17 and show that the taken are the wicked--they are not the Church being raptured. I'm not adding any new information. I'm simply shining a light on what is already there--just as the Holy Spirit shined the light for me on His Word and enabled me to see.

 

[Psalm3704]

Did I just prove these are different events? I think even you will agree I did not, they are the same event. Identical wording is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing!

Let me guess. Identical wordings is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing as you think these two events are the same event too.

Ecclesiastes 12:2
While the sun and the light, The moon and the stars, Are not darkened, And the clouds do not return after the rain;

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.





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[Fusion77]

A good understanding of the Tribulation and Return of Christ can be obtained through the careful study of Scripture. Nothing else is needed. It doesn't mean we understand everything, but we can understand the basic framework that can encourage us to be prepared to overcome, should we someday find ourselves living in the Tribulation. Right now, our understanding can be like a page out of a child's coloring book. When the artist starts to color the flower purple, we'll see it better than when there several options on the table (e.g., yellow, blue, pink, red, white, etc.).

The 100% dependable prophets are those God used to write Scripture.

John 15:15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Since Jesus has shared all the important things the Father gave Him for us to know (now), it means there isn't a critical piece that He hasn't shared. It is unbiblical to assume that a pre-tribulation rapture will come, for example, on the basis of "God can do anything", since Jesus doesn't show this from His words in the gospels or His inspired words which make up the Bible. A Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church would be a pretty major thing! God would have clearly delineated it in the Bible from the Second Coming. He doesn't!

It's okay to have theories about gray areas as long as we don't hold dogmatically to them.

Whatever we do share should aid people in understanding the clear framework God constructed through Scripture. That's what I'm doing every time I paste Matthew 24 and Luke 17 and show that the taken are the wicked--they are not the Church being raptured. I'm not adding any new information. I'm simply shining a light on what is already there--just as the Holy Spirit shined the light for me on His Word and enabled me to see.

A good understanding of the Tribulation and Return of Christ can be obtained through the careful study of Scripture. Nothing else is needed. It doesn't mean we understand everything, but we can understand the basic framework that can encourage us to be prepared to overcome, should we someday find ourselves living in the Tribulation. Right now, our understanding can be like a page out of a child's coloring book. When the artist starts to color the flower purple, we'll see it better than when there several options on the table (e.g., yellow, blue, pink, red, white, etc.).

The 100% dependable prophets are those God used to write Scripture.

John 15:15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Since Jesus has shared all the important things the Father gave Him for us to know (now), it means there isn't a critical piece that He hasn't shared. It is unbiblical to assume that a pre-tribulation rapture will come, for example, on the basis of "God can do anything", since Jesus doesn't show this from His words in the gospels or His inspired words which make up the Bible. A Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church would be a pretty major thing! God would have clearly delineated it in the Bible from the Second Coming. He doesn't!

It's okay to have theories about gray areas as long as we don't hold dogmatically to them.

Whatever we do share should aid people in understanding the clear framework God constructed through Scripture. That's what I'm doing every time I paste Matthew 24 and Luke 17 and show that the taken are the wicked--they are not the Church being raptured. I'm not adding any new information. I'm simply shining a light on what is already there--just as the Holy Spirit shined the light for me on His Word and enabled me to see.

yeah right. Almost everyone here, that I've come across, (as well I can gather) have accepted Christ as their personal savior. Really that's the most important thing. I've only run into 1 or 2 out of several that have a very weird view, that I may question. For them, it'll really take the work of the Holy Spirit for them to see the truth. Not saying they're not saved, I just question it.

Maybe my information isn't for anybody else, yet. It'll be revealed in Gods timing.

 

[Psalm3704]

Did I just prove these are different events? I think even you will agree I did not, they are the same event. Identical wording is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing!

How about this one? It doesn't matter when one say we are caught up and the other is gather from heaven as long as Jesus appears in both, it's the same event. Right?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.....silly clown!










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[Douggg]

Im trying to get you to focus on that evil day,it's specific....satan will be here on earth live and in person,and not by possession

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The above is the day of Ephesians....Again satan is not now on this earth!!!!This has yet to happen...

You are misunderstanding Revelation 12:9, thinking that passage indicates that Satan is not now on this earth. Satan is on this earth, and also the second heaven (the cosmos) - and he currently has freedom of movement between the two.

When the future war in heaven (the second heaven) takes place, it will be right after the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven (the third heaven).

There is the big earthquake in Jerusalem. And the 7th trumpet sounds. It is not at the end of the 7 years as some reason, because they are not understanding it says the kingdoms of this world "are become" the kingdoms of God and His Christ. It a process is that starts of taking away Satan's dominion overshadowing this world.

The kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ - that unfolding is the mystery of God that should be finished, in Revelation 10. John is given a little book to eat, and that the contents of that book is what we read in Revelation after chapter 10. The seventh trumpet is not at the end of the seven years; it is at the mid-point, just a the person has become the beast and just killed the two witnesses. Which, God at that point has become fed up with Satan and begins to prosecute him and his kingdom. Beginning with casting Satan down to earth.

Revelation 10
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What God declared to the prophets is that His Kingdom would come to earth and rule over the kingdoms of men. In Daniel 2 it is in the days of the ten kings of the fourth empire. In their time, God will setup his everlasting Kingdom here on earth.

The ten kings' time is in Revelation 17:17 as their pledge their kingdom to the beast for that last 42 months in Revelation 13. The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13:1, signifying their rule will the beast the 42 months. During that 42 months, Satan will be restricted to here on earth. Right now, he has freedom of movement.

The first action of the kingdoms of this world becoming under the rule of the kingdom of God, - instead of the kingdom of Satan - in that process is to take away Satan's place in the "second" heaven. That's where the war will take place. Satan and his angels don't reside (not allowed to) in the third heaven because it would be chaos there.

The second heaven in the cosmos. It says in Revelation 12, that their place would be found there (heaven) no more. Not only Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, but the place of their residency, the cosmos, will be removed in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

What the status of Satan is right now is that he is not restricted to this earth. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't roam this earth as part of his freedom of movement.

"the evil day" is just saying this time in history, which has been since the garden of eden fall. The evil day exists because Satan is allowed to roam around creating trouble. When Satan and his angels are cast down, it will still be the evil day - and will continue to be until Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

 

[Postvieww]

Why don't you scroll back several pages and read what I've told Riberra and everyone else about 1 Corinthians 15. It's not the same as 1 Thess 4.

This argument you just made would be similar to you trying to argue to everyone the real rapture is pretrib when we all already know you're a posttribber. (EVERYONE KNEW EXCEPT YOU!). Dumbest debunk ever attempted. It could of been avoided had you just read a few pages back.

Your debunk just exploded in your face!






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No not really the main point still stands, you were trying to play off of the specific wording to say passages that are the same were different. It still matters not trump, trumpet, trump of God, as the deciding factor

 

[Postvieww]

How about this one? It doesn't matter when one say we are caught up and the other is gather from heaven as long as Jesus appears in both, it's the same event. Right?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.....silly clown!



.

It is the same event and you have yet to respond to the post that debunked your statement “How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”.

Still waiting to hear a scriptural response to that post.

 

[Postvieww]

Let me guess. Identical wordings is not necessary for two passages to be about the same thing as you think these two events are the same event too.

Ecclesiastes 12:2
While the sun and the light, The moon and the stars, Are not darkened, And the clouds do not return after the rain;

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.





.

Bad example the context is different in the two you show here. The context is the same in the passages we are really discussing. Try addressing the real point.

 

[iamlamad]

This is not a second prophecy this is a single prophecy. Zechariah 4:2-3 is a vision an angel shows Zechariah. It has NOTHING to do with the second temple era. That vision is Gods word to Zerubbabel. The Lampstands and olive trees are the 2 witnesses. Revelation 11:4 the lamps are the eyes of the Lord. Zechariah 4:10. The 7 eyes are the 7 spirits of God Revelation 5:6. Zechariah 4:11-14. The branches represent the 2 anointed ones who stand before the Lord of all the earth. Revelation 11:4.

That vision has nothing to do with the second temple era.

That theory takes the verses 2-3 OUT OF CONTEXT.

4 So I asked the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who was speaking with me answered me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This [continuous supply of oil] is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel [prince of Judah], saying, ‘Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit [of whom the oil is a symbol],’ says the Lord of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain [of obstacles]? Before Zerubbabel [who will rebuild the temple] you will become a plain (insignificant)! And he will bring out the capstone [of the new temple] with loud shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

Sorry, my friend, but this is already HISTORY: history books TELL US that He DID build that temple. You can't UNDO history with a theory.