Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Riberra]

You still haven't even shown me where does the bible say there's more than one trump of God. Why don't you take care of this question first before making requests.

I never said or implyed that Paul wrote about more than one trump of God.I said that the Last Trump mentioned in his letter to the Corinthians is probably the Trump of God that Paul mention in his letter to the Thessalonians.

 

[Fusion77]

Your apparent interpretation of Daniel 9:27, although shared by the majority of evangelicals today, requires an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9 and the addition of a manmade "gap", not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
The 70 weeks prophecy ended 490 years after it started, based on a literal reading of the passage.

It also requires that the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant found at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and confirmed by Christ below in His own words.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV



Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

...................................................................................



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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Was Daniel 11:31 already fulfilled too?

 

[Luke17:37]

I have information you don't have. I know that the 2 witnesses are alive and aware of their identity. I know that they won't be prophesying clothed in sackcloth for the entire time the abomination of desolation is set up. They will be "Dispatched" by the Lord after the Abomination of desolation is set up.

Are you claiming extrabiblical revelation? While I'm not denying the possibility, I also know that people can be deceived about stuff they think God is telling them. You should certainly be able to understand why people aren't just trusting you. It's great to hear your opinions, though.

P.S. I never expected the two witnesses to begin their public ministry until after the abomination of desolation.

 

[Fusion77]

Are you claiming extrabiblical revelation? While I'm not denying the possibility, I also know that people can be deceived about stuff they think God is telling them. You should certainly be able to understand why people aren't just trusting you. It's great to hear your opinions, though.

P.S. I never expected the two witnesses to begin their public ministry until after the abomination of desolation.

Verified in the bible. Let me ask, do you believe Zechariah 4:2-3 has anything to do with the second temple era, or the Zerubbabel of that time?

 

[BABerean2]

So has the Lord already returned?

Absolutely not...


John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

John 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.




Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Fusion77]

Absolutely not...


John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

John 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.




Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

Whew you had me scared there for a while. Has Daniel 11:31 been fulfilled also?

 

[BABerean2]

Whew you had me scared there for a while. Has Daniel 11:31 been fulfilled also?

Take a look at the link below. It reveals the scripture dealing with Antiochus Epiphanes.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanies

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[Fusion77]

Take a look at the link below. It reveals the scripture dealing with Antiochus Epiphanes.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanies

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Take a look at the link below. It reveals the scripture dealing with Antiochus Epiphanes.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanies

.

But do you believe it has been fulfilled?

 

[BABerean2]

But do you believe it has been fulfilled?

If you understand why the Jews celebrate Hanukkah, you have to acknowledge that it has been fulfilled at least one time. John 10:22

If you also understand the 3 Parallel accounts of what Jesus was saying in the Olivet Discourse, you have to acknowledge he was saying a similar event would happen in 66 or 70 AD.
..................................................................................................

Revealing the Abomination of Desolation in the Parallel Gospels:


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka.



Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.


Lets take a look at the word “compass” in Luke's account...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Compare this to the reference in Luke chapter 19 about being surrounded and having a trench made around them.)

(Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.)

(The Jewish leadership should have known the time of His visitation, because it was foretold by the angel Gabriel in the Book of Daniel. There was no excuse for them not knowing He was the Messiah. We also find a reference here to the temple being destroyed. This passage clearly connects the events of 70 AD to Jerusalem being surrounded. In the KJV the word "compass" is used in both passages. It should also be noted that the city was surrounded by a Roman army under the command of Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. However, for some unknown reason the Romans stopped the siege and thousands of Romans were killed by the Jews during the retreat. The early Christians left the city sometime before the final siege of 70 AD. They followed the warning given by Christ.)

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Compare this verse to what Jesus said to the women crying while he was going to be crucified. Both passages contain a reference to nursing mothers.)

(Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(According to the writings of Josephus, during the siege of 70 AD some mothers ate their own children.)

Almost all scholars, agree that the next verse is about the siege of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (This last verse contains a reference to a time span that would occur before the fulfillment of the next verse. The time of the Gentiles will not end until the future Second Coming of Christ.)



At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24 the disciples ask Jesus two questions.




Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.



Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



1. When will the temple be destroyed?


2. What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia), and the end of the age?




Jesus answers the first question within the first half of Matthew chapter 24.

He answers the second question within the last half of Matthew chapter 24.

The key Greek word “parousia” connects this second question to the future Second Coming of Christ.

This Greek word “parousia” found in other passages of the New Testament connect the passages to Christ’s return.

...............................................................

Could the abomination happen again? Maybe.
.

 

[keras]

The witnesses will witness before the day of the Lord, so that's not applicable.

Yes, they will before the Day of Jesus' glorious Return.
But we know from Revelation 6:17, that the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath happens long before the Return.
Don't confuse the Day of vengeance and wrath, Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other prophesies, with the great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11, Matthew 24:30

 

[Fusion77]

Yes, they will before the Day of Jesus' glorious Return.
But we know from Revelation 6:17, that the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath happens long before the Return.
Don't confuse the Day of vengeance and wrath, Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other prophesies, with the great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11, Matthew 24:30

I have information that you don't have. Most people are confused by the book of Revelation. The witnesses are alive today.

 

[Fusion77]

If you understand why the Jews celebrate Hanukkah, you have to acknowledge that it has been fulfilled at least one time. John 10:22

If you also understand the 3 Parallel accounts of what Jesus was saying in the Olivet Discourse, you have to acknowledge he was saying a similar event would happen in 66 or 70 AD.
..................................................................................................

Revealing the Abomination of Desolation in the Parallel Gospels:


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka.



Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.


Lets take a look at the word “compass” in Luke's account...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Compare this to the reference in Luke chapter 19 about being surrounded and having a trench made around them.)

(Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.)

(The Jewish leadership should have known the time of His visitation, because it was foretold by the angel Gabriel in the Book of Daniel. There was no excuse for them not knowing He was the Messiah. We also find a reference here to the temple being destroyed. This passage clearly connects the events of 70 AD to Jerusalem being surrounded. In the KJV the word "compass" is used in both passages. It should also be noted that the city was surrounded by a Roman army under the command of Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. However, for some unknown reason the Romans stopped the siege and thousands of Romans were killed by the Jews during the retreat. The early Christians left the city sometime before the final siege of 70 AD. They followed the warning given by Christ.)

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Compare this verse to what Jesus said to the women crying while he was going to be crucified. Both passages contain a reference to nursing mothers.)

(Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(According to the writings of Josephus, during the siege of 70 AD some mothers ate their own children.)

Almost all scholars, agree that the next verse is about the siege of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (This last verse contains a reference to a time span that would occur before the fulfillment of the next verse. The time of the Gentiles will not end until the future Second Coming of Christ.)



At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24 the disciples ask Jesus two questions.




Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.



Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



1. When will the temple be destroyed?


2. What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia), and the end of the age?




Jesus answers the first question within the first half of Matthew chapter 24.

He answers the second question within the last half of Matthew chapter 24.

The key Greek word “parousia” connects this second question to the future Second Coming of Christ.

This Greek word “parousia” found in other passages of the New Testament connect the passages to Christ’s return.

...............................................................

Could the abomination happen again? Maybe.
.

Then do you believe it was fulfilled in 167 BC?

 

[Luke17:37]

Verified in the bible. Let me ask, do you believe Zechariah 4:2-3 has anything to do with the second temple era, or the Zerubbabel of that time?

Hey Fusion77. So yes, you are claiming extrabiblical revelation but that its verified in the Bible? Maybe not all of it is clear without your extra information. Just don't get frustrated if people don't see it.

I'll look at Zechariah 4 deeper sometime. I have only skimmed through your recent exchanges about this passage. Personally I have focused primarily on why I think the Church should prepare themselves to overcome in the Tribulation. This forum has been kind of fun (I've written 82 posts since January 2), but I have three books I want to read before the end of February (on different subjects entirely) so think I should spend less time here for the time being.

 

[Fusion77]

Yes, they will before the Day of Jesus' glorious Return.
But we know from Revelation 6:17, that the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath happens long before the Return.
Don't confuse the Day of vengeance and wrath, Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other prophesies, with the great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11, Matthew 24:30

The 2 witnesses will not arrive in the scene until after the abomination of desolation is place.

 

[Fusion77]

Hey Fusion77. So yes, you are claiming extrabiblical revelation but that its verified in the Bible? Maybe not all of it is clear without your extra information. Just don't get frustrated if people don't see it.

I'll look at Zechariah 4 deeper sometime. I have only skimmed through your recent exchanges about this passage. Personally I have focused primarily on why I think the Church should prepare themselves to overcome in the Tribulation. This forum has been kind of fun (I've written 82 posts since January 2), but I have three books I want to read before the end of February (on different subjects entirely) so think I should spend less time here for the time being.

Oh, don't worry I'm not frustrated, at all. Just trying to give folks a better understanding. It's not really for me. It's my desire to share what Gods shown me. I've known about Zechariah 4 for 12 years. But, since November, He has been speaking again.

 

[Fusion77]

Hey Fusion77. So yes, you are claiming extrabiblical revelation but that its verified in the Bible? Maybe not all of it is clear without your extra information. Just don't get frustrated if people don't see it.

I'll look at Zechariah 4 deeper sometime. I have only skimmed through your recent exchanges about this passage. Personally I have focused primarily on why I think the Church should prepare themselves to overcome in the Tribulation. This forum has been kind of fun (I've written 82 posts since January 2), but I have three books I want to read before the end of February (on different subjects entirely) so think I should spend less time here for the time being.

I don't think you'll understand Zechariah 4 there's a reason it's been veiled for 2500 years.

 

[Luke17:37]

Oh, don't worry I'm not frustrated, at all. Just trying to give folks a better understanding. It's not really for me. It's my desire to share what Gods shown me. I've known about Zechariah 4 for 12 years. But, since November, He has been speaking again.

How old were you when you realized the Bible teaches Post-Tribulation Rapture? I was 16 or 17, and we're close to the same age. When I was younger I kept quiet, but now I'm starting to talk to the people around me. I told my pastor that I was convinced this was really important and I felt like I'd be fearing man more than God and hating the Church if I agreed to keep silent. I'm wondering if God is raising up a few of us from Generation X or younger because we are probably are going to experience the Tribulation--maybe most of the teachers of today will die off first.

 

[Fusion77]

How old were you when you realized the Bible teaches Post-Tribulation Rapture? I was 16 or 17, and we're close to the same age. When I was younger I kept quiet, but now I'm starting to talk to the people around me. I told my pastor that I was convinced this was really important and I felt like I'd be fearing man more than God and hating the Church if I agreed to keep silent. I'm wondering if God is raising up a few of us from Generation X or younger because we are probably are going to experience the Tribulation--maybe most of the teachers of today will die off first.

I guarantee we'll face the tribulation. I guess I was early 30's. Like I said the next major event will be a huge war. I know because the Lord has spoken this. I don't know exactly when though, but soon.

 

[Luke17:37]

I guarantee we'll face the tribulation. I guess I was early 30's. Like I said the next major event will be a huge war. I know because the Lord has spoken this. I don't know exactly when though, but soon.

In my heart, I believe it, too (that I will face the Tribulation)

 

[iamlamad]

I have information that you don't have. Most people are confused by the book of Revelation. The witnesses are alive today.

Since death is only separation, OF COURSE they are alive: but they are most likely in heaven right now waiting for God to send them down. They will not appear on earth until just before the midpoint of the week.