Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Fusion77]

I'm glad to see that you've charged your batteries.

I'm not a 7 year tribulation guy so the 3 prophetic time periods in Daniel 12 can be slid around or adjusted inside of the larger 1335 day period.

The AofD may already have been set up and is currently standing in the holy place. Or definitely where it ought not be.

And if that's the case the 1290 day countdown may have already began.

Right I believe in the final week, but to bible says the anti christ comes up in a time of tranquility Daniel 11:21 and Daniel 11:24 says the despicable one will come up in a time of peace.
He will build the temple and then tribulation will begin in the middle of the week.
That final week will not be 1260 days. It can't, according to the current Hebrew calendar. We must go by the current Hebrew calendar. It's not my fault everyone has been thrown off by the 1260 days the 2 witnesses will prophesy clothed in sackcloth. No one understands that They will not prophesy clothed in sackcloth for the complete 3.5 years, it will be about 25 or 26 days after the final 3.5 years has begun, until they start that final leg of their ministry.

 

[Fusion77]

I'm glad to see that you've charged your batteries.

I'm not a 7 year tribulation guy so the 3 prophetic time periods in Daniel 12 can be slid around or adjusted inside of the larger 1335 day period.

The AofD may already have been set up and is currently standing in the holy place. Or definitely where it ought not be.

And if that's the case the 1290 day countdown may have already began.

The final 1290 have not begun. The next major prophetic event will be a terrible war. sometime after that the final week, or 7 years will begin.

 

[Dave Watchman]

That final week will not be 1260 days. It can't,

That final week will be 1260 days. It must. But it doesn't make any difference so don't worry about it. That final week might be 1290 days or 1335 days. All that matters is that we will be in the air in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the 7th angel. We will watch Armageddon and the ending of the tribulation from the sky. So it wasn't the "last day" of the tribulation that Jesus was talking about, it was the "last day" for salvation.

All Aboard.

 

[Riberra]

I think we can take this farther. We DO read that meat-eaters today, such as Lions, will go back to eating grass - or at least NOT eating lambs. That hints strongly that at one time they did NOT eat sheep.

Do you know that the digestive system of grass eating animals and carnivorus animals does not work the same way.
Cows for example have 3 stomachs to process and digest grass.
Saying that the lions were grass eater before the flood and that they became meat eater after the Flood suggest that their digestive system adapted to eat grass -- became suddently transformed to eat meat sometime after they left the Ark ...it is like saying that a cow could have became carnivorus as well because of the curse following Adam and Eve fall...

What you find in Isaiah 65:17-25 is the description of the life as it will be on the New Earth after the Millennium .With a totally new creation on a new Earth's surface and a new biosphere.


Isaiah 65
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The final 1290 have not begun. The next major prophetic event will be a terrible war. sometime after that the final week, or 7 years will begin.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. The data looks spooky enough to me not to talk about it. There's a guy who did a post that I might boost up. But he will take a stroke when I say the U.S.A. is the holy place.

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, there were four blood moons and God was opening up a new continent. This would become the holy place, the earth who would help the woman in Revelation 12 as the dragon spewed forth a flood from his mouth. Most haven't recognized the U.S.A. as the holy place but when God does a thing it becomes holy, rather than the thing being holy so that God does it. Like when the "ground" became holy for Moses and Joshua. America became "the earth" who would help "the woman" in 1776 and at the same time the holy place established by God as a refuge from the persecutions of the Church in Rome. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God.

 

[Fusion77]

That final week will be 1260 days. It must. But it doesn't make any difference so don't worry about it. That final week might be 1290 days or 1335 days. All that matters is that we will be in the air in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the 7th angel. We will watch Armageddon and the ending of the tribulation from the sky. So it wasn't the "last day" of the tribulation that Jesus was talking about, it was the "last day" for salvation.
It can't be 1260 days. And it doesn't have to be. Because, Revelation 12:6 is historical, it already occurred, and the witnesses won't be prophesying clothed in sackcloth for the first 25-26 days of the final 3.5. But, I do agree with the last part, that we will be out of here at the sound of the 7th trumpet.
All Aboard.

 

[Fusion77]

That final week will be 1260 days. It must. But it doesn't make any difference so don't worry about it. That final week might be 1290 days or 1335 days. All that matters is that we will be in the air in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the 7th angel. We will watch Armageddon and the ending of the tribulation from the sky. So it wasn't the "last day" of the tribulation that Jesus was talking about, it was the "last day" for salvation.

All Aboard.

It can't be 1260 days and won't have to be. Because Revelation 12:6 is history, it's already occurred. And, the 2 witnesses won't prophesy for the entire 3.5, they'll start prophesying clothed in sackcloth about 25-26 days after the 3.5 begin.

 

[Fusion77]

That final week will be 1260 days. It must. But it doesn't make any difference so don't worry about it. That final week might be 1290 days or 1335 days. All that matters is that we will be in the air in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the 7th angel. We will watch Armageddon and the ending of the tribulation from the sky. So it wasn't the "last day" of the tribulation that Jesus was talking about, it was the "last day" for salvation.

All Aboard.

But, I agree with the last part of your post. We'll be outta here when the 7th trumpet sounds.

 

[Fusion77]

That final week will be 1260 days. It must. But it doesn't make any difference so don't worry about it. That final week might be 1290 days or 1335 days. All that matters is that we will be in the air in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the 7th angel. We will watch Armageddon and the ending of the tribulation from the sky. So it wasn't the "last day" of the tribulation that Jesus was talking about, it was the "last day" for salvation.

All Aboard.

Let me ask you a question though. Do you believe Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at the same time? Do you think the final 3.5 year period will end at the same time Daniel 12:11 ends?

 

[Dave Watchman]

It can't be 1260 days and won't have to be. Because Revelation 12:6 is history, it's already occurred.

I agree with this part but not maybe the way that you think. Because of the operation of the Jubilee calendar both of the prophetic time periods from Revelation 12 AND the time period from Daniel 7 were 1260 YEARS. They began when the Heruli, Vandals and Ostrogoths were plucked up by the roots around 538. They ended in 1798 when Pope Pius was arrested and died in jail.

He received a mortal wound, but it's almost healed.

Revelation's first and longest prophetic time period is finished and the next one is long overdue to start. We have been living in an intermission between two great periods of Christian persecution. That dragon has had too much time to make his plans for the rest of Her offspring, those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. We are 2/3s of the way through Revelation's story, living just prior to the events of the second coming and then the start of the thousand years of Revelation 20.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Let me ask you a question though. Do you believe Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at the same time? Do you think the final 3.5 year period will end at the same time Daniel 12:11 ends?

I think that at this point it's not worth quibbling over numbers. It could be 15 or 30 days of difference but it's not going to matter. Plus Jesus said unless those days were shortened so who knows what's going on as long as we know when we're in the zone. We use the term "tribulation" and try to assign our definition to it. When Jesus said:"immediately after the tribulation of those days" He might be talking about the 1260th day when we go in the air but there still might be 30 or 45 days worth of vials to go for the wicked.

 

[Fusion77]

I think that at this point it's not worth quibbling over numbers. It could be 15 or 30 days of difference but it's not going to matter. Plus Jesus said unless those days were shortened so who knows what's going on as long as we know when we're in the zone. We use the term "tribulation" and try to assign our definition to it. When Jesus said:"immediately after the tribulation of those days" He might be talking about the 1260th day when we go in the air but there still might be 30 or 45 days worth of vials to go for the wicked.

It's important to know though. Because if you think that Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at the same time then that tells us something. It tells us the final 3.5 years would have to be at least 1290 days long.

 

[Dave Watchman]

It's important to know though. Because if you think that Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at the same time then that tells us something. It tells us the final 3.5 years would have to be at least 1290 days long.

I think Daniel 12:7 is the same as Revelation 11:3. The shattering of the power of the holy people is simultaneous with the two witnesses laying dead in the street. All this happens around the 1260th day when we go in the air. And this is also about the time when the beasts authority comes to an end so the the vials can begin.

I think Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at about the same time but the tribulation continues for some time until God's wine press is finished. We won't see the sign of the Son of Man from the ground. Only the tribes of the earth will and they will mourn.

We won't mourn the sign of the Son of Man.

 

[Riberra]

Hebrews 11

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.​

"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.…

You forget to highlight the first sentence that you quoted from Hebrews 11.

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised,

This is not about a removal to Heaven for those who are alive... but a promise for those who DIED in Faith

 

[Fusion77]

I think Daniel 12:7 is the same as Revelation 11:3. The shattering of the power of the holy people is simultaneous with the two witnesses laying dead in the street. All this happens around the 1260th day when we go in the air. And this is also about the time when the beasts authority comes to an end so the the vials can begin.

I think Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 end at about the same time but the tribulation continues for some time until God's wine press is finished. We won't see the sign of the Son of Man from the ground. Only the tribes of the earth will and they will mourn.

We won't mourn the sign of the Son of Man.

Okay if they end at the same time then the 42 months or 3.5 years would have to be longer than 1290 days because the scattering/ shattering of Gods people happens before the abomination of desolation. Luke 21:20.

I believe revelation 11:2 Daniel 7:25 Daniel 12:7 Revelation 12:14 and Revelation 13:5 are all speaking of the same period of time. If they all end at the same time as Daniel 12:11 but, begin a little before, then it's longer than 1290 days.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I will always be a young earth creationist. The Bible doesn't allow for anything else, and I have no reason not to believe it. My pastor, who is Jewish and can read the Hebrew Scriptures (more of them than I can), confirms that the Hebrew won't allow for anything but youth earth creation. And I maintain that Genesis 1 and Exodus 20:11, taken together, are also proof, since it combines the phrase "the heavens and the earth" with the six days of creation described in Genesis 1:2-31. In Hebrew, Genesis 1:1 is: Bereshith bara Elohim eth hashamayim waeth haaretz. Hashamayim "the heavens" is derived from mayim "waters." God started creating the heavens with water that He separated and expanded (vs. 6-8). The first verse of Genesis is what He did (completely) and the rest of the chapter describes how. Then in Genesis 2, He goes into even more detail about man.

This has nothing to do with what we were talking about. We're not debating the age of the earth or when it was created. Your original argument was God made herbivore T-Rexs. The bible, the book of Enoch and others reveal differently. Then you changed the subject to the behemoth, a strawman attempt.

Now you're attempting another strawman about the young earth creation. No one was arguing this.

The Bible testifies of scoffers in the last days who refuse to believe His creation and flood accounts and also refuse to believe in a literal, bodily return of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9). You obviously believe in a literal return of Christ, but please take into consideration the unwise position you are clinging to about creation (and maybe the flood).

We're not debating creation. Another strawman attempt and you're wrong again. Peter was talking about scoffers being impatience mocking when the second coming would happen, not the creation of the earth. 2 Peter 3:3-4. Peter was not writing about creation.

The hyppopotomus and elephant are obviously not the chiefest works of God, such that only their maker can approach them with a sword. And neither of their tails are appropriate to the description of behemoth. You are using poor human logic asking why God would let His chiefest animal be extinct by now. There are many extinct dinosaurs but we know they were large because we found fossils.

Hippopotamus and elephants found but no sauropod mentioned anywhere. Again, how do you hide a dinosaur the size of a sauropod under the shades of a lotus tree? Job 40:21-22

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
40:15-24 God, for the further proving of his own power, describes two vast animals, far exceeding man in bulk and strength. Behemoth signifies beasts. Most understand it of an animal well known in Egypt, called the river-horse, or hippopotamus. This vast animal is noticed as an argument to humble ourselves before the great God; for he created this vast animal, which is so fearfully and wonderfully made. Whatever strength this or any other creature has, it is derived from God. He that made the soul of man, knows all the ways to it, and can make the sword of justice, his wrath, to approach and touch it. Every godly man has spiritual weapons, the whole armour of God, to resist, yea, to overcome the tempter, that his never-dying soul may be safe, whatever becomes of his frail flesh and mortal body.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Of the ways of God, i.e. of God’s works, to wit, of that sort, or among living and brute creatures. This is eminently and unquestionably true of the elephant, in regard of his vast bulk and strength, joined with great activity, and especially of his admirable sagacity and aptness to learn, and of his singular usefulness to mankind, his lord and master, and God’s vicegerent in the world, and many other commendable qualities. And the hippopotamus also is in some sort, as others note, the chief, or one of the chief, of God’s works, in regard of its great bulk, and strength, and sagacity, and the manner of his living, both in the water and upon the land. But it must be granted that the elephant doth exceed the hippopotamus in many things.

Though he be so strong and terrible, yet God can easily subdue and destroy him, either immediately, or by arming other creatures, as the rhinoceros, or dragon, or tiger, against him. Or, he that made him hath applied or given to him his sword, or arms, to wit, his trunk, which may not unfitly be called his sword, because thereby he doth both defend himself and offend his enemies. And this trunk of his being a thing very observable and admirable in him, and therefore not likely to be neglected in his description, if it were not intended by his tail, Job 40:17, may seem to be designed in these words.

Job 40:17 (KJV) He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Job 40:17 (GNT) His tail stands up like a cedar, and the muscles in his legs are strong.

Job 40:17 (ESV) He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Job 40:17 (CSB) He stiffens his tail like a cedar tree; the tendons of his thighs are woven firmly together.

The bible isn't talking about the length of the tail. It's referring to it's ability to stiffen up as hard as a cedar tree. Do you know how hard it is to stiffen up a tail on a sauropod that's around 50-100 feet long verses a tail on a hippo merely 10 inches long?

Further, you're extremely condescending.

Don't bother replying. I've spent enough time with you.

Now that's just rude and annoying in a goading type of way telling me not to reply back after accusing me of being condescending.








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[BABerean2]

Actually it would really be applicable to the current Hebrew calendar which has been as such for thousands of years. Because the prophets speak in the future.

The current Hebrew calendar is not thousands of years old.

It came into use 300-400 years after the time of Christ, in an effort to better align with the other more modern calendars.
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[BABerean2]

And that's not all!

If you call in the next 5 minutes, we'll also throw in a brand new gold bound edition of the Brand New Covenant!

That's right, not 1 but 2 books for the price of 1.

We'll be looking forward to your order!

Call Now!

That was a good one Dave.

A little humor can be good for the soul, even if it is at our own expense.

I believe the title of "the New Covenant" is called "the New Testament" by most people.

I hope you already have at least one copy.
If not, provide your mailing address and I am sure someone here will send you one, free of charge.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
NKJV
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[Matthew Twentyfour]

Jesus' reference to the flood of Noah's day is in both passages. Luke's gospel says, "destroyed them all," and Matthew's gospel says, "took them all away." Afterwards, Jesus discusses the taken and the left, taken and left, taken and left at His return.

Noah and his family didn't die. They were lifted up above the tribulation (flood). Lot fled and escaped before fire came upon them. They're not the same, different events, different stories. The wicked died because they were judged unrighteous. You need to reevaluate the bible.

The reference to Lot only happens in Luke, but means the same thing: the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed when fire and brimstone reigned down from heaven.

And do you know why it's only mentioned in Luke 17 and nowhere else?

You think the main point is that people are surprised. I think the main point is that people are destroyed. The reason why I believe this is because of Jesus' frequent use of the word "taken"--which, in context, refers to the destruction of the wicked.

If the main point is not about the people being surprised, why would people be drinking, marrying and getting marry. Would you be drinking and marrying during the great tribulation after billions of people dying from war and devastating natural disasters?

 

[Fusion77]

The current Hebrew calendar is not thousands of years old.

It came into use 300-400 years after the time of Christ, in an effort to better align with the other more modern calendars.
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I've read many articles that are contrary to what you're saying. Even pulled this up the other day, where in the day of Esther 9:1 that Adar was considered the Adar 2. In addition, a leap year would always have to be used to avoid getting a drift. What I mean, is within 5 years you would already be a month out of sync with the solar calendar. No matter what it would always be necessary to add a leap year.

Regardless, of that all of the times given in the prophets wouldn't apply to hundreds or thousands of years ago, it would apply to the time they prophesied about which in many cases is now.

Do you believe Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 will end at the same time?