Riberra
Well-Known Member
88 reasons why the rapture will happen in 1988...
http://www.google.ca/search?q=88+re...-US:unofficial&gbv=1&sei=thiOVpe2HYfJeui1g9gE
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Why do people believe in a Rapture?
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http://www.google.ca/search?q=88+re...-US:unofficial&gbv=1&sei=thiOVpe2HYfJeui1g9gE
Riberra
Well-Known Member
Nice try but no cigars.
You are twisting what i wrote.
I said that the Last Trump IS the Trump of God. I said that it will sound after the Tribulation.You can find it in Matthew 24:29-31.
I have shown you the trumpet sounding our gathering AFTER the Tribulation.
Can you show us the trumpet sounding before the tribulation where there is mention of a gathering ?
I doubt than you can.
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Matthew 4:4
Note that the trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Are you thinking of the following verses?
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
If so, note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in these verses, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.
John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).
Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).
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Note that the talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through the darkness of outer space.
Actually, it doesn't. For even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).
Is the writer thinking of the following verse?
Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If so, note that in the original Greek Textus Receptus and the KJV, the latter half of this verse states the condition for the 1st half. If the latter half isn't done, then the 1st half doesn't apply, as other verses also make clear (e.g. Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29).
Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.
At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).
Also, the 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.
Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).
Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.
Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16).
Note that the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, for their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).
Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ . . .
Note that here, Jesus' glorious appearing is his 2nd coming, when he will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).
Also, here the blessed hope is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).
No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
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Matthew 4:4
Note that there is still a rapture, for the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
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Note that we aren't only a soul, but also a spirit and a body at the same time:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 ¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Actually, it will, just as it rose in the past:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Philippians 3:20 . . . we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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This brings to mind that believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).
Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.
Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).
And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.
So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
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Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).
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Bible2+
Matthew 4:4
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
In this verse, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:
andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewatersandletitdividethewa
tersfromthewatersandgodmadethefirmamentanddividedthewaterswhichwere
underthefirmamentfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditwasso
This meant that those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) had to rightly divide between the words in order to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the above example, if one mistakenly divided "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.
Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55?
If so, note that Paul doesn't call the rapture a mystery in those verses, for Jesus had already clearly taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (cf. John 11:26) is the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies, at the same, 2nd-coming time that the bodies of dead believers will be resurrected from their graves into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Romans 8:23-25). It is only after this 2nd-coming resurrection and changing that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).
Also, note that 1 Corinthians 15:54b refers back to Isaiah 25:8, which refers to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:9; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54) and the earthly feast which will occur at that time (Isaiah 25:6-12), which will be the marriage feast of Revelation 19:9.
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Revelation 6:1 ¶And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Here the rider on the white horse could indeed represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
When Paul says, regarding the restrainer, "now ye know what withholdeth", he was addressing the 1st century AD Thessalonians to whom he had previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5). That is, "now" included both a time in their past and their present, just as, for example, the "now" in 1 Thessalonians 3:8, Colossians 1:26, and 2 Timothy 1:10 included both a past time (compared with the exact moment those letters were first read) and the present.
Regarding the restrainer, Paul says:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.
Note that the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit (as is sometimes claimed), because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.
Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.
Note that the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
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Bible2+
Matthew 4:4
The mistaken pre-tribulation-rapture view sometimes asserts that the Thessalonians were worried that they had missed a pre-tribulation rapture, and were now in the tribulation. But what 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 actually says refutes the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21).
But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.
Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.
But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).
Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).
Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).
God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).
Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).
1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Note that an old universe and evolution can be true without contradicting creationism, because evolution per se (random mutation and survival of the fittest) can coexist with miraculous creation, just as an automated process created by a human (e.g. a computer program which makes random, colorful pictures which can be seen as art) can coexist with that human sometimes performing a task himself directly (painting some pictures by hand). I.e., evolution per se can simply be a process created by God to allow new, adaptive species to arise naturally over time, and this process can coexist with God sometimes creating species miraculously.
Some people ask why would God wait millions of years for something to evolve from a one-celled organism, when he could just instantly create it? He could do that for the same reason that he has a human start out as a one-celled organism: a zygote in its mother's womb. He then has it only gradually develop through natural means into an embryo, and then into a fetus, and then a baby, a toddler, an adolescent, and an adult. And he has other animals develop gradually in a similar way. And he has plants start out as seeds. So it must give God pleasure to see organisms develop naturally over time, just as it must give him pleasure to also sometimes create plants and animals miraculously, instantaneously, already fully-formed, like he did in Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:20-27, during 3 of the 7 literal, 24-hour days of Genesis 1:3 to 2:4.
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Creationism can include what could be called a double-gap theory, meaning that there could have been 2 gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the 2nd gap between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5. Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, some 4.5 billion years could have occurred, in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose naturally on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years, God could have also gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously, whenever he wanted to (cf. punctuated equilibria).
Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only about 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space as a "rogue planet" (astronomers estimate that rogue planets in our galaxy could outnumber the stars in our galaxy). Genesis 1:3 to 2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of 6 literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.
Then, only about 6,000 years ago, God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; there, the original Hebrew word translated as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land": e.g. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the local, Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9), and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). Then God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). Then he created an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).
Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago (based on Biblical chronology), yet there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years. Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or coexisting hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.
And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billion years old, and it contains something like 100 billion galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion stars. So even if only one star out of every 10 billion stars has an inhabited planet, there would still be a trillion inhabited planets. And on most of these, God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years prior to his beginning of his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.
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Bible2+
Matthew 4:4
That could be right, if we consider 4 or 5 years as not very long. For the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. And it could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.
And one way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to prevent the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) from taking over Iraq, and Syria, and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.
And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.
Indeed, the current military brains of Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiites taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could overthrow the current Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.
Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.
But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").
But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.
The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.
There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).
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Psalm3704
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
More work for you B2. Get to work refuting all these.
*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation
1. The church is taken into heaven before God pour out His wrath (Hebrews 12:22-29).
2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics
3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.
4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.
6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).
8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).
9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
11. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.
12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).
14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.
15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).
17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).
18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.
19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.
20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).
21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.
22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.
23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.
25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.
26. The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.
27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).
28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.
30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).
31. If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.
34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).
35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.
36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.
37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).
38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.
40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).
41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.
43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.
44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.
45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.
46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.
47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.
48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.
49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.
50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.
Ten Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
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Five Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
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One Reason Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
1. Matthew 24:29-31
After the tribulation is when the rapture happens as the angels gather the elects from heaven!
In the rapture, people come down, they don't go up. This is the post tribulation view.
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*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation
1. The church is taken into heaven before God pour out His wrath (Hebrews 12:22-29).
2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics
3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.
4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.
6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).
8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).
9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
11. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.
12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).
14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.
15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).
17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).
18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.
19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.
20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).
21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.
22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.
23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.
25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.
26. The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.
27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).
28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.
30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).
31. If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.
34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).
35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.
36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.
37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).
38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.
40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).
41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.
43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.
44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.
45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.
46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.
47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.
48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.
49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.
50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.
Ten Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
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Five Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
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One Reason Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
1. Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
After the tribulation is when the rapture happens as the angels gather the elects from heaven!
In the rapture, people come down, they don't go up. This is the post tribulation view.
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Psalm3704
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Riberra, the word "last" in terms of quantity ALWAYS implies more than one. If Paul was implying the last trump as the trump of God, he would of revealed at least a first trump.
You got problems understand basic logic.
Plus the fact the elects being gather from heaven in Matthew 24:31 clearly indicates that passage not being the rapture.
Another simple logic you can't grasp.
If you can't prove a post tribulation rapture anywhere, that's find. I can't either. LOL! No one can!
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I talked with Pastor David Lankford on the phone for about an hour within the last couple of months.
He had been considered one of the "up and coming" preachers in the Pentecostal denomination.
After studying scripture, he came to the conclusion that the pretrib doctrine is not found in scripture.
He was thrown out of his denomination for speaking the truth on the issue.
This treatment is typical of Baptist or Pentecostal preachers who dare to oppose John Darby's newer doctrine.
The link below is to a radio show Pastor Lankford did on the pretrib doctrine.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Show us anything about being born again in 1 Corinthians 14:38
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Postvieww
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Since in your response to my post you did not even mention where I refuted your statement included at the bottom of all of your posts, “How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”. I will consider that statement scripturally eliminated from the discussion until such a time as you respond with scripture as to why I was wrong.
Even one of your pretrib brothers cautiously commented that I had made some good points. I know Lamad will probably try to back peddle because he finds it hard to agree with me, but he wrote what he wrote. So this massive diversionary post of yours will not cover the facts I just pointed out. Lamad even challenged one of your statements, deal with that please.
In general my response to your post is, I see very little in the way of scriptural arguments, and much in the way of private interpretation, human reasoning arguments and issues that have been dealt with on this forum numerous times. I’ll take the first few and deal with each on the merits.
1) Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark"before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39
This type of arguments prove nothing, this is an example of what I called a human a reasoning argument. I believe the point you are trying to make is this is a type of the pretrib rapture because Noah went in the ark before the flood came so that signifies the church will be gone before the tribulation. Post tribbers can use the same scripture and say Noah was protected in the ark on this earth throught the flood and was not raptured out of it but protected through it. So now what have we accomplished? Nothing. Your point 1 proves nothing!
2) To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30
Refer to point 1 answer.
3) Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot "went out of Sodom"before God's judgment rained down (Luke 17:28-29). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30
Refer to point 1 answer. This is the same type of human reasoning argument that proves neither pre or post.
4) God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.
Refer to point 1 answer. Yes God can and does protect His own, but He doesn’t have to take them to heaven to do it. Rev 12:14 and Rev 11:5, the two witnesses protected until the end of their 42 months.
5) Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He further emphasizes this and describes 2-3 examples (Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.
Matt 24: 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Those taken away were drowned, how is that a type of the rapture? Luke 17:34-37 those taken here will have their flesh eaten by eagles, how is that a type of the rapture?
6) Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming before is what catches people off guard.
1 Thess 5: 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Believers watching and waiting will not be caught off guard.
Matt 24: 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
This passage in Matthew the same thing as 1 Thess. Watch and be prepared. Your point six does not prove there will be a pretrib rapture. I know of no post tribber who claims to know the hour Jesus will return.
7) Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the unannounced thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.
See answer for point 6.
8) Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).
Matt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It is the evil servant caught off guard and unprepared. No pretrib proof here.
Your last post I dealt with point by point and the first 8 of your 50. If you want to respond in kind, go back a deal with the issues you avoided from the last post and the first 8 of this post and we can continue. If you want to avoid , divert and shoot a scatter shot, I’ll just be like Luke 17:37 and not respond any more, this is a debate forum. I’ll be glad to debate any scriptural points you want to raise but you have some catching up to do.
“Instead of indulging in self proclaimed speculations, let's compare side by side scriptural evidences from a more creditable source and see what the bible has to say on the timing of the rapture. “
Great advice!
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iamlamad
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You are frequently miss-writing. Here is what you should have written:
He was thrown out of his denomination for speaking [what he believed was] the truth on the issue.
So what? Hundreds of Baptist preachers were kicked out because they received the gift of the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues. They were right, their leaders were wrong.
I listened to some of his argument. He is just as mistaken as you are - well, maybe not quite as much as you are. AFter all, I think he is spirit filled.
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iamlamad
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Not even a good argument would work with you. For example, one could say, "john SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, before he even started the 70th week.
Probably your first response would be "prove with scripture that this great crowd too large to number is really the raptured church." Next, you might say, "revelation is not in chronological order, so even if that was the church, it proves nothing."
How close did I come?
All I can say is, if that really IS the raptured church, your theories fail.
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