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Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

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anonymouswho

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What you are basically doing is relying on the most dubious possible mistranslation, which actually disagrees both with what the Greek original actually said, and with how all ancient authorities who cared bothered to read it.

There is precisely zero scriptural justification for the Soccinian/Unitarian Christology you propose; of the two ancient groups that adhered to this, one, the Ebionites, did not regard John as a canonical Gospel, and the other, basically, Paul of Samosata, did not care.

Also it should be noted your translation of Logos as impersonal reason in the context of John 1 is quite absolutely wrong.
Could you please explain why this translation is wrong? I have tried to take into consideration the tenses, such as Aroist and Genitive, as well as the original order of the words. I've also tried to keep each word as close to its literal meaning as possible. I even kept monogenes as "only-begotten", rather than argue that it means something else.

I'm quite aware of what the Ebionites believed, but thank you. However, "zero justification"?

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" Acts 2:22

That is a verse that specifically says Yeshua is a man. I have not found a single passage that says He is God.

Could you please explain why my translation of Logos as an impersonal reason is "absolutely wrong"? I'm sure you're aware that Greek pronouns are not specific, but take on whatever gender their noun carries. Logos is a masculine noun, so it's pronoun has to be masculine. This in no way implies that there is some mystical entity called the Logos, that also happens to have male genitalia. That's seems a bit silly to me.

Thank you my friend, and God bless.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Actually John 1:1-14 says word was God. It doesn’t say Jesus was God. And it doesn’t say Jesus was the Word.

Actually, it does, and we can see that in a couple of ways:
  • John's testimony:
    • In verse 15, we read, ‘John [the Baptist, not the writer] testified concerning him [this ‘him’ obviously refers to the Word, introduced in verse 14]. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”’
    • In verses 29-30, John the Baptist uses these same words to describe the man whom John the writer identifies as the Word. We read, ‘The next day, John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”’
    • So, in verse 15, we read that John was talking about the Word (introduced in verse 14); and, in verse 30, we read that John says the same thing about Jesus (introduced in verse 29). Therefore, the Word and Jesus are the same person.
  • The one who gives us grace:
    • In verse 16, we read, ‘Out of his fullness [again, it refers to the Word, introduced in verse 14] we have all received grace in place of grace already given.’
    • In verse 17, it continues: ‘For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.’
    • If verse 16 says it is by the Word that we receive grace and verse 17 says that it is by Jesus Christ that we receive grace, then it is clear that the Word and Jesus Christ are the same person.
  • The light:
    • In verse 4, we read, ‘In him [which is the Word, introduced in verse 1] was life, and that life was the light of all Mankind.’ So, the Word is the Light.
    • In verse 7, we are told, ‘He [which is John, introduced precisely in verse 6] came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.’
    • And we already know, from verses 29-30, that Jesus is the one of whom John had come to testify.
    • Therefore, since John came to testify of the Light and of Jesus, then Jesus and the Light are the same person; and, since we are also told that the Light and the Word are the same person, then Jesus and the Word are also the same person.
So, there you go! Three logical proofs, from John 1, that Jesus is the Word — and, since we are also immediately told in John 1:1 that the Word is God, we can safely conclude that Jesus is God.
 
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Wgw

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Could you please explain why this translation is wrong?

Your translation of Logos as Reason (which is misleading) for starters, your interpolation of unidicated phrases and so on; also your lack of knowledge of Koine Greek, which is evident.

I have tried to take into consideration the tenses, such as Aroist and Genitive, as well as the original order of the words. I've also tried to keep each word as close to its literal meaning as possible.

In which you failed, by erasing context.

I even kept monogenes as "only-begotten", rather than argue that it means something else.

Indeed, you preserve in one instance the original meaning while distorting it elsewhere.

I'm quite aware of what the Ebionites believed, but thank you. However, "zero justification"?

Quite fully zero.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" Acts 2:22

That is a verse that specifically says Yeshua is a man.

Which we also believe.

I have not found a single passage that says He is God.

Then I daresay you aren't looking very hard.

Could you please explain why my translation of Logos as an impersonal reason is "absolutely wrong"? I'm sure you're aware that Greek pronouns are not specific, but take on whatever gender their noun carries. Logos is a masculine noun, so it's pronoun has to be masculine. This in no way implies that there is some mystical entity called the Logos, that also happens to have male genitalia. That's seems a bit silly to me.

Thank you my friend, and God bless.

Well, aside from the fact your translation is internally inconsistent (in particular, your attempt to deal with John 1:14 is risible), there is also the relevant fact of the accepted uses of the word Logos in ancient times: see Philo.
 
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anonymouswho

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Your translation of Logos as Reason (which is misleading) for starters, your interpolation of unidicated phrases and so on; also your lack of knowledge of Koine Greek, which is evident.

I'm sorry my friend, I asked if you could explain why the translation is wrong, not why you disagree with it. "Misleading" does not mean "wrong", it means you disagree. I left interpolation to clarify how I interpret the phrases. I would assume anyone would need interpolation if they wished to explain how this Logos is an "incarnate god-man that makes up the second person of a triune god". I don't believe I added anything to my interpolation that would require us to use such unscriptural terms.

You are correct that I lack knowledge of Koine Greek. However, I do understand that Logos is singular, but it cannot be translated as "word". Word would be a single word, but Logos means:

[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]

Logos is not a singular word, but is many words, that when put together, express an idea, or a reason. We see that Yeshua spoke the "logos" of God, or the "reasoning of God". He did not speak a single "word" that somehow summed up everything He wished to communicate.

In which you failed, by erasing context.

I think this has yet to be determined.

Indeed, you preserve in one instance the original meaning while distorting it elsewhere.

I'm not sure which word I have distorted. If I have distorted any words, could you please explain what they should mean?

Quite fully zero.
Which we also believe.
Then I daresay you aren't looking very hard.

The writings say that Yeshua was a man. He is also explicitly called the Messiah and the Son of God. Where can I find the words "Jesus is God", "God became a man", or anything remotely close to this?

Well, aside from the fact your translation is internally inconsistent (in particular, your attempt to deal with John 1:14 is risible), there is also the relevant fact of the accepted uses of the word Logos in ancient times: see Philo.

Καὶ (and) (the) λόγος (reason) σὰρξ (flesh) ἐγένετο (becomes) καὶ (and) ἐσκήνωσεν (tabernacles) ἐν (within) ἡμῖν (us), καὶ (and) ἐθεασάμεθα (we behold) τὴν (the) δόξαν (glory) αὐτοῦ (of it), δόξαν (glory) ὡς (like) μονογενοῦς (of an only-begotten) παρὰ (alongside) πατρός (of a father), πλήρης (full) χάριτος (of grace) καὶ (and) ἀληθείας (of truth)·

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-14.htm

Is there something else in John 1 that you find inconsistent with this?

I'm sorry, I don't concern myself with Stoic philosophy. I don't think even Paul ever quoted Philo. I do like the way Heraclitus uses Logos:

"Therefore one must follow (the universal Law [logos: reason], namely) that which is common (to all). But although the Law [logos: reason] is universal, the majority live as if they had understanding peculiar to themselves."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logos

He doesn't seem to believe the term Logos denoted a spiritual figure. He believed it was the "universal reason" by which we all live. Here is an article about the etymology of Reason:

"The English term “reason” is derived from the French word raison, from Latin rationem (ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause." The concept of reason is connected to the concept of language, as reflected in the meanings of the Greek word, "logos." As reason, rationality, and logic are all associated with the ability of the human mind to predict effects as based upon presumed causes, the word "reason" also denotes a ground or basis for a particular argument, and hence is used synonymously with the word 'cause.'"

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Reason

Thank you friend, and God bless.
 
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thecolorsblend

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also your lack of knowledge of Koine Greek, which is evident.
Quite. It does raise the question of just how determined someone must be to misinterpret St. John 1 if they, being at best laymen with ancient languages, attempt their own translation because apparently nobody in the entire history of mankind has ever been able to do the job right (even though they all have more linguistic education and expertise than these would-be translators).

I mean, there's a considerable amount of chutzpah behind what anonymouswho is doing here when you think about it.
 
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Der Alte

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I'm sorry my friend, I asked if you could explain why the translation is wrong, not why you disagree with it. "Misleading" does not mean "wrong", it means you disagree. I left interpolation to clarify how I interpret the phrases. I would assume anyone would need interpolation if they wished to explain how this Logos is an "incarnate god-man that makes up the second person of a triune god". I don't believe I added anything to my interpolation that would require us to use such unscriptural terms.

You are correct that I lack knowledge of Koine Greek. However, I do understand that Logos is singular, but it cannot be translated as "word". Word would be a single word, but Logos means:

[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]

Logos is not a singular word, but is many words, that when put together, express an idea, or a reason. We see that Yeshua spoke the "logos" of God, or the "reasoning of God". He did not speak a single "word" that somehow summed up everything He wished to communicate.

I think this has yet to be determined.

I'm not sure which word I have distorted. If I have distorted any words, could you please explain what they should mean?

The writings say that Yeshua was a man. He is also explicitly called the Messiah and the Son of God. Where can I find the words "Jesus is God", "God became a man", or anything remotely close to this?

Καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (reason) σὰρξ (flesh) ἐγένετο (becomes) καὶ (and) ἐσκήνωσεν (tabernacles) ἐν (within) ἡμῖν (us), καὶ (and) ἐθεασάμεθα (we behold) τὴν (the) δόξαν (glory) αὐτοῦ (of it), δόξαν (glory) ὡς (like) μονογενοῦς (of an only-begotten) παρὰ (alongside) πατρός (of a father), πλήρης (full) χάριτος (of grace) καὶ (and) ἀληθείας (of truth)·

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-14.htm

Is there something else in John 1 that you find inconsistent with this?

I'm sorry, I don't concern myself with Stoic philosophy. I don't think even Paul ever quoted Philo. I do like the way Heraclitus uses Logos:

"Therefore one must follow (the universal Law [logos: reason], namely) that which is common (to all). But although the Law [logos: reason] is universal, the majority live as if they had understanding peculiar to themselves."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logos

He doesn't seem to believe the term Logos denoted a spiritual figure. He believed it was the "universal reason" by which we all live. Here is an article about the etymology of Reason:

"The English term “reason” is derived from the French word raison, from Latin rationem (ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause." The concept of reason is connected to the concept of language, as reflected in the meanings of the Greek word, "logos." As reason, rationality, and logic are all associated with the ability of the human mind to predict effects as based upon presumed causes, the word "reason" also denotes a ground or basis for a particular argument, and hence is used synonymously with the word 'cause.'"

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Reason

Thank you friend, and God bless.

I notice you posted two quotes from a secular encyclopedia in support of your argument. Here is the relevant definition of Logos from one of, if not, the most renowned Greek lexicons available Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of New Testament Greek.

3. the Logos. Our lit. shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom lit. and Philo , the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God): J 1:1 a, b, c, 14. It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine ‘Word’ took on human form in a historical person, that is, in Jesus. ( Cf. RSeeberg, Festgabe für AvHarnack ’21, 263-81.—Aelian, V.H. 4, 20 ejkavloun to;n Prwtagovran Lovgon. Similarly Favorinus [II AD ] in Diog. L. 9, 50 of Democritus : ejkalei`to Sofiva. Equating a divinity with an abstraction that she personifies: Artem. 5, 18 frovnhsi" ei\nai nomivzetai hJ qeov" [Athena]). Cf. 1J 1:1 ; Rv 19:13 . ei|" qeov" ejstin, oJ fanerwvsa" eJauto;n dia; jI. Cristou` tou` uiJou` aujtou`, o{" ejstin aujtou` lovgo", ajpo; sigh`" proelqwvn there is one God, who has revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his ‘Word’ proceeding from silence IMg 8:2 ( s. sighv ). The Lord as novmo" k. lovgo" PK 1. Cf. Dg 11:2, 3, 7, 8; 12:9.—HClavier, TWManson memorial vol., ’59, 81-93: the Alexandrian eternal lovgo" is also implied in Hb 4:12 ; 13:7 .— S. also the ‘Comma Johanneum’ (to the bibliography in RGG 3 I, 1854 [HGreeven] add AJülicher, GGA ’05, 930-5; AvHarnack, SAB ’15, 572 f [=Studien I ’31, 151 f ]; MMeinertz, Einl. in d. NT 4 ’33, 309-11; AGreiff, ThQ 114, ’33, 465-80; CHDodd, The Joh. Epistles ’46) oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo" kai; to; a{gion pneu`ma 1J 5:7 t.r. (such interpolations were not unheard of. According to Diog. L. 1, 48 some people maintain that Solon inserted the verse mentioning the Athenians after Iliad 2, 557).—On the Logos: EZeller, D. Philosophie der Griechen III 2 4 ’03, 417-34; MHeinze, D. Lehre v. Logos in d. griech. Philosophie 1872; PWendland, Philo u. d. kynisch-stoische Diatribe [Beiträge z. Gesch. der griech. Philosophie u. Religion by Wendl. and OKern 1895, 1-75]; AAall, Gesch. d. Logosidee 1896, 1899; MPohlenz, D. Stoa ’48 f , I 482; 490 (index); LDürr, D. Wertung des göttl. Wortes im AT u. im ant. Orient ’38 (§9 of the Joh. Logos); EBréhier, Les idées philosophiques et religieuses de Philon d’Alexandrie ’07, 83-111; ( 2 ’25); JLebreton, Les théories du Logos au début de l’ère chrétienne ’07; E Schwartz, NGG ’08, 537-56; GVos, The Range of the Logos-Title in the Prologue of the Fourth Gospel: PTR 11, ’13, 365-419; 557-602; RHarris, The Origin of the Prologue to St. John’s Gospel ’17, Athena, Sophia and the Logos: Bull. of the JRylands Libr. 7, 1, ’22 p. 56-72; M-JLagrange, Vers le Logos de S. Jean: RB 32, ’23, 161-84, Le Logos de Philon: ibid. 321-71; HLeisegang, Logos: Pauly-W. XIII ’26, 1035-81; TFGlasson, Heraclitus ’ Alleged Logos Doctr., JTS 3, ’52, 231-8.—NJWeinstein, Z. Genesis d. Agada ’01, 29-90; Billerb. II 302-33.—Rtzst., Zwei religionsgeschichtl. Fragen ’01, 47-132, Mysterienrel. 3 ’27, 428 index; WBousset, Kyrios Christos 2 ’21, 304 ff ; 316 f ; JKroll, D. Lehren d. Hermes Trismegistos ’14, 418 index.—RBultmann, D. religionsgesch. Hintergrund des Prol. z. Joh.: HGunkel- Festschr. ’23, II 1-26, Comm. ’41, 5 ff ; ABDAlexander, The Johannine Doctrine of the Logos: ET 36, ’25, 394-9; 467-72; (Rtzst. and) HHSchaeder, Studien z. antiken Synkretismus ’26, 306-37; 350; GAvdBerghvanEysinga, In den beginne was de Logos: NThT 23, ’34, 105-23; JDillersberger, Das Wort von Logos ’35; RGBury, The 4th Gosp. and the Logos-Doctrine ’40; EMay, CBQ 8, ’46, 438-47; GAFKnight, From Moses to Paul ’49, 120-9. TW IV 76-89; 126-40 (on this s. SLyonnet, Biblica 26, ’45, 126-31); CStange, Zsyst Th 21, ’50, 120-41; MEBoismard, Le Prologue de St. Jean ’53; HLangkammer, BZ 9, ’65, 91-4; HRinggren, Word and Wisdom [hypostatization in Near East] ’47; WEltester, Haenchen- Festschr. , ’64, 109-34; HFWeiss, Untersuchungen zur Kosmologie etc., TU 97, ’66, 216-82; MRissi, Die Logoslieder im Prolog des vierten Evangeliums, ThZ 31, ’75, 321-36. M-M. B. 1262.

http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/la/la-Index.html
 
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Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.


Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.”

[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..
[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
More complete citations.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word]not God Himself,against whom man offends(Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online
 
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Wgw

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Quite. It does raise the question of just how determined someone must be to misinterpret St. John 1 if they, being at best laymen with ancient languages, attempt their own translation because apparently nobody in the entire history of mankind has ever been able to do the job right (even though they all have more linguistic education and expertise than these would-be translators).

I mean, there's a considerable amount of chutzpah behind anonymouswho is doing here when you think about it.

It takes extreme chutzpah.

I'm sorry my friend, I asked if you could explain why the translation is wrong, not why you disagree with it. "Misleading" does not mean "wrong", it means you disagree.

In this case, it means "wrong and potentially deceptive."

I left interpolation to clarify how I interpret the phrases. I would assume anyone would need interpolation if they wished to explain how this Logos is an "incarnate god-man that makes up the second person of a triune god". I don't believe I added anything to my interpolation that would require us to use such unscriptural terms.

Your argument that your interpolation is valid because it does not require belief in the Trinity is so laughably fallacious that frankly, it transcends the "Chutzpah" @thecolorsblend refers to, and approaches the level of high Postmodernism.

I suggest you rent a loft in a Philip Johnson skyscraper, decorated with abstract art and 1990s furniture, and with a copy of Simulacra et Simulation on prominent display. Ballard, Derrida, et al, just can't compete with such an unabashed recursive conflation of artifice and actuality.

You are correct that I lack knowledge of Koine Greek.

Indeed so, thus I am going to reject your entire mistranslation, since no one who actually knows Koine Greek, throughout the entire history of the Christian faith, has translated or interpreted that verse in that manner, even non-Trinitarians. The fact the JWs with their distorted, manipulated translation did not go down this road shows how outre your claim is, frankly.

"The English term “reason” is derived from the French word raison, from Latin rationem (ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause." The concept of reason is connected to the concept of language, as reflected in the meanings of the Greek word, "logos." As reason, rationality, and logic are all associated with the ability of the human mind to predict effects as based upon presumed causes, the word "reason" also denotes a ground or basis for a particular argument, and hence is used synonymously with the word 'cause.'"

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Reason

I note here you quote an encyclopedia known to be a front for the Unification Church. I myself regard Moonie propaganda as rather inherently unreliable.
 
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Wgw

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I notice you posted two quotes from a secular encyclopedia in support of your argument. Here is the relevant definition of Logos from one of, if not, the most renowned Greek lexicons available Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of New Testament Greek.

3. the Logos. Our lit. shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom lit. and Philo , the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God): J 1:1 a, b, c, 14. It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine ‘Word’ took on human form in a historical person, that is, in Jesus. ( Cf. RSeeberg, Festgabe für AvHarnack ’21, 263-81.—Aelian, V.H. 4, 20 ejkavloun to;n Prwtagovran Lovgon. Similarly Favorinus [II AD ] in Diog. L. 9, 50 of Democritus : ejkalei`to Sofiva. Equating a divinity with an abstraction that she personifies: Artem. 5, 18 frovnhsi" ei\nai nomivzetai hJ qeov" [Athena]). Cf. 1J 1:1 ; Rv 19:13 . ei|" qeov" ejstin, oJ fanerwvsa" eJauto;n dia; jI. Cristou` tou` uiJou` aujtou`, o{" ejstin aujtou` lovgo", ajpo; sigh`" proelqwvn there is one God, who has revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his ‘Word’ proceeding from silence IMg 8:2 ( s. sighv ). The Lord as novmo" k. lovgo" PK 1. Cf. Dg 11:2, 3, 7, 8; 12:9.—HClavier, TWManson memorial vol., ’59, 81-93: the Alexandrian eternal lovgo" is also implied in Hb 4:12 ; 13:7 .— S. also the ‘Comma Johanneum’ (to the bibliography in RGG 3 I, 1854 [HGreeven] add AJülicher, GGA ’05, 930-5; AvHarnack, SAB ’15, 572 f [=Studien I ’31, 151 f ]; MMeinertz, Einl. in d. NT 4 ’33, 309-11; AGreiff, ThQ 114, ’33, 465-80; CHDodd, The Joh. Epistles ’46) oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo" kai; to; a{gion pneu`ma 1J 5:7 t.r. (such interpolations were not unheard of. According to Diog. L. 1, 48 some people maintain that Solon inserted the verse mentioning the Athenians after Iliad 2, 557).—On the Logos: EZeller, D. Philosophie der Griechen III 2 4 ’03, 417-34; MHeinze, D. Lehre v. Logos in d. griech. Philosophie 1872; PWendland, Philo u. d. kynisch-stoische Diatribe [Beiträge z. Gesch. der griech. Philosophie u. Religion by Wendl. and OKern 1895, 1-75]; AAall, Gesch. d. Logosidee 1896, 1899; MPohlenz, D. Stoa ’48 f , I 482; 490 (index); LDürr, D. Wertung des göttl. Wortes im AT u. im ant. Orient ’38 (§9 of the Joh. Logos); EBréhier, Les idées philosophiques et religieuses de Philon d’Alexandrie ’07, 83-111; ( 2 ’25); JLebreton, Les théories du Logos au début de l’ère chrétienne ’07; E Schwartz, NGG ’08, 537-56; GVos, The Range of the Logos-Title in the Prologue of the Fourth Gospel: PTR 11, ’13, 365-419; 557-602; RHarris, The Origin of the Prologue to St. John’s Gospel ’17, Athena, Sophia and the Logos: Bull. of the JRylands Libr. 7, 1, ’22 p. 56-72; M-JLagrange, Vers le Logos de S. Jean: RB 32, ’23, 161-84, Le Logos de Philon: ibid. 321-71; HLeisegang, Logos: Pauly-W. XIII ’26, 1035-81; TFGlasson, Heraclitus ’ Alleged Logos Doctr., JTS 3, ’52, 231-8.—NJWeinstein, Z. Genesis d. Agada ’01, 29-90; Billerb. II 302-33.—Rtzst., Zwei religionsgeschichtl. Fragen ’01, 47-132, Mysterienrel. 3 ’27, 428 index; WBousset, Kyrios Christos 2 ’21, 304 ff ; 316 f ; JKroll, D. Lehren d. Hermes Trismegistos ’14, 418 index.—RBultmann, D. religionsgesch. Hintergrund des Prol. z. Joh.: HGunkel- Festschr. ’23, II 1-26, Comm. ’41, 5 ff ; ABDAlexander, The Johannine Doctrine of the Logos: ET 36, ’25, 394-9; 467-72; (Rtzst. and) HHSchaeder, Studien z. antiken Synkretismus ’26, 306-37; 350; GAvdBerghvanEysinga, In den beginne was de Logos: NThT 23, ’34, 105-23; JDillersberger, Das Wort von Logos ’35; RGBury, The 4th Gosp. and the Logos-Doctrine ’40; EMay, CBQ 8, ’46, 438-47; GAFKnight, From Moses to Paul ’49, 120-9. TW IV 76-89; 126-40 (on this s. SLyonnet, Biblica 26, ’45, 126-31); CStange, Zsyst Th 21, ’50, 120-41; MEBoismard, Le Prologue de St. Jean ’53; HLangkammer, BZ 9, ’65, 91-4; HRinggren, Word and Wisdom [hypostatization in Near East] ’47; WEltester, Haenchen- Festschr. , ’64, 109-34; HFWeiss, Untersuchungen zur Kosmologie etc., TU 97, ’66, 216-82; MRissi, Die Logoslieder im Prolog des vierten Evangeliums, ThZ 31, ’75, 321-36. M-M. B. 1262.

http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/la/la-Index.html

Note that in fact it was not a secular encyclopedia. but a Moonie encyclopedia. As in the Unification Church, the notorious cult that regards Sun Myung Moon as a messiah appointed to complete the "unfinished" work of our Lord.
 
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Truthearthdefender

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Anything that is as convoluted as the trinity can't be from God and can't be true. If you have to break out a calculator or it takes a very long time to explain something in the bible it is not from god and in the case of the trinity not true. I of course was raised to believe in the trinity but instead of rejecting god and becoming an atheist because the trinity didn't make sense I did my research.

There is a website http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/About.html

That pretty much sums up most peoples awakening from the lie of the trinity and I encourage anyone who wants to know the truth to read at least that page. The main problem with believing jesus is god is idolatry. Sin. An unnecessary one at that. Satan does all he can to thwart gods word and rebel against god and does all he can to lead people to sin even accidentally like in this case. Satanists main way of deception is half truths. Not to say those who believe in the trinity are satanists but they are deceived in the same way that luciferians deceive people. Give them a little bit of the truth with the rest a bold face lie to keep them from their full rewards and power in this life and the next.

I love jesus with all my heart but the fact is he is not god and never was. He didn't create the universe or humans. Anything miraculous he did was through god not because he was god. The lie has spread like a highly contagious virus and now 90% of christians believe it and commit an unnecessary sin. God bless.
You are echoing the same sentiment that the keepers of the Truth of God keep... You can do extensive searches to find their beliefs... but they believe that the antichrist will spread his disease across the earth until all his followers proclaim Jesus is God alone...

This is at the backbone of Christianity and for Chritians who read the Bible and accept no other input or interpretation... it makes sense... except that one can hardly hope to understand the original manuscripts without a team of scholars working day and night... so this is in reference to those who replace God with Jesus, which Christians do not do. The trinity is in the Old and New Testament combined. They are separate yet equal... not defined without the other, but distinct in their definition... All three appear numerous times in the Bible... from the burning bush to the dove to Jesus Himself, and God. Blasphemous the Holy Spirit is unforgivable as it has been written...

The Catholic church is generally blamed for the issues with the Trinity, but this is one keeping of sound doctrine that they do not fall short of. Unfortunately many don't know how to explain the Trinity in an understandable manner.

Jesus is in The Bible... The Holy Spirit is in the Bible (when God some to prophets and the source of many miracles and changed hearts), and God is the basis of both the Old and New Testament... starting with Genesis (The Beginning, God from Whom all things were given life).
 
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Truthearthdefender

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Despite loving Jesus, this is something that you may have to really tackle over and over... but in the end, Jesus knows what is in your heart and you will be dealing with Him... I would just advise not blaspheming or denying the reality of the Holy Spirit... because whether you understand it yet or not, it is a grave offense to God.

Good luck with your search! And I used to argue from the same.position you did, until I was saved.
 
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anonymouswho

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Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.


Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.”

[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..
[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
More complete citations.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word]not God Himself,against whom man offends(Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online

Thank you for the reply. The reason I use secular resources is to refrain from any bias. I can see that the source I left is indeed under the supervision of the Unification Church, so I will find others.

I understand your reasoning for believing that Yeshua is the "Word of God" in the Scriptures. The Targums are a great resource if one wishes to understand ancient Jewish interpretations of Scripture, but I desire to know Truth. If I were to use Kabbalah to prove some point, I'm sure it would not be well received.

It was because of the Targum's interpretation that I came to believe what Arius taught. I saw the "Angel of the LORD", and believed this to be the "preincarnate Jesus". However, Hebrews tells us specifically that God has not made all things for the angels, He has made it for mankind.

I do not believe that Yeshua "preexisted" as some sort of "Word-tool" that God used to make all things.

"Thus saith YHVH, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am YHVH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24

Thank you my friend and God bless.
 
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civilwarbuff

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The reason I use secular resources is to refrain from any bias. I can see that the source I left is indeed under the supervision of the Unification Church, so I will find others.
That is almost like an oxymoron.....
 
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anonymouswho

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It takes extreme chutzpah.



In this case, it means "wrong and potentially deceptive."



Your argument that your interpolation is valid because it does not require belief in the Trinity is so laughably fallacious that frankly, it transcends the "Chutzpah" @thecolorsblend refers to, and approaches the level of high Postmodernism.

I suggest you rent a loft in a Philip Johnson skyscraper, decorated with abstract art and 1990s furniture, and with a copy of Simulacra et Simulation on prominent display. Ballard, Derrida, et al, just can't compete with such an unabashed recursive conflation of artifice and actuality.



Indeed so, thus I am going to reject your entire mistranslation, since no one who actually knows Koine Greek, throughout the entire history of the Christian faith, has translated or interpreted that verse in that manner, even non-Trinitarians. The fact the JWs with their distorted, manipulated translation did not go down this road shows how outre your claim is, frankly.



I note here you quote an encyclopedia known to be a front for the Unification Church. I myself regard Moonie propaganda as rather inherently unreliable.

I will leave new sources. However, your claim that "nobody in all the history of Christianity" has translated or interpreted John 1:1 like this is incorrect. All you have to do is type (with the quotation marks) "in the beginning was the reason" into Google, and you will see that there are plenty of people that believe Logos means Reason. But for your sake, I will leave better resources this time.

"logos,( Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning."

http://www.britannica.com/topic/logos

Here is an interesting source:

"New Catholic Encyclopedia | 2003 | CROSSAN, D. M.; PETER, C. J. | 700+ words
COPYRIGHT 2003 The Gale Group Inc.

The word Logos (λόγος) has various meanings in Greek: reckoning, account, explanation, reason, narrative, saying, term, word, etc. But it is the use of this word in the expression, λόγος θεο[symbol omitted], "Word of God," as employed in the Johannine writings of the New Testament, that makes it a term of prime theological significance."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407706819/logos.html

William Tydale, in 1532 a.d. believed the Logos was an "it"...

"In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
The same was in the beginnynge with God.
All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made."

http://thebiblecorner.com/englishbibles/tyndalebible/john/1.html

Here is a translation from Samuel Buckley, recorded by John LeClerc in The Harmony of an Evangelist in 1701:

"Before the Creation of the World, Reason did exist, for Reason was then in God; indeed was God himself, it not being possible for God to be without it. Reason, I say, did exist in God before the Creation of the World, every portion of which was created with the greatest Reason; nor can any thing be produc'd that has been made without it."

Here is an article from gotquestions, just in case anyone here accepts it as a reliable source:

"Logos is the Greek term translated as “word,” “speech,” “principle,” or “thought.” In Greek philosophy, it also referred to a universal, divine reason or the mind of God."

http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-Logos.html

Pope Benedict XVI said in 2005:

"In the so necessary dialogue between secularists and Catholics, we Christians must be very careful to remain faithful to this fundamental line: to live a faith that comes from the "Logos," from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational."

You do realize that Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy, don't you? You are assuming that every Greek scholar that has ever lived wrote down their translation and was able to obtain a publisher. Ad Hominem is also a logical fallacy, which I assumed you were using in your "Post Modernism" statement. I can see that Eusebius has influenced you. Here is a quick reference to several logical fallacies:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Also, I did not say that my interpolation was valid "because it doesn't require a belief in the trinity". I said that an interpolation would be essential if one were to attempt to show how John is describing a triune god-man.

Nobody has made any attempt at explaining to me why my translation is wrong. If it is wrong, then I will correct it. I am not allowed on any forum besides Controversial Theology, so perhaps one of you could do me a solid and find someone who is fluent in the obsolete Koine Greek language. In the Book of Hebrews, there are at least 168 terms not found in any other New Covenant writings, and 10 terms that are not found in any Koine or Classical Greek manuscript ever found:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07181a.htm (another Catholic source)

But perhaps someone can explain where my Greek is incorrectly translated. Maybe they can even explain how John is describing a triune, incarnate god-man that is called God the Son. I would like if this could be done without contradicting John 17:3:

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Thank you and God bless.
 
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thecolorsblend

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There's a consensus in the translations done by Christian scholars and by secular ones. It spans centuries. Secularists and Christians might not be able to agree on much but the translation of St. John 1 (if not the statements contained in St. John 1) seem to be a matter of agreement.

Look how much hay people make out of "virgin" vs. "young girl" in the Old Testament. Talk about splitting hairs over absolutely nothing. But deniers of the Incarnation are desperate to find some "error" that they're willing to invent nonsense controversies like virgin/young girl out of whole cloth rather than talk about substance.

As I see it, the burden is upon you not only to prove the viability of your preferred translation (which you've yet to do) but also the improvement you presumably believe it to be over the traditional translation (which it doesn't appear you've made a serious effort to do).

With respect, your untraditional, unsubstantiated, fringe translation only has the distinction of violating traditional interpretations of St. John 1 in a way that renders the text you're translating (not to mention the rest of the New Testament) an incoherent mess.
 
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anonymouswho

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There's a consensus in the translations done by Christian scholars and by secular ones. It spans centuries. Secularists and Christians might not be able to agree on much but the translation of St. John 1 (if not the statements contained in St. John 1) seem to be a matter of agreement.

Look how much hay people make out of "virgin" vs. "young girl" in the Old Testament. Talk about splitting hairs over absolutely nothing. But deniers of the Incarnation are desperate to find some "error" that they're willing to invent nonsense controversies like virgin/young girl out of whole cloth rather than talk about substance.

As I see it, the burden is upon you not only to prove the viability of your preferred translation (which you've yet to do) but also the improvement you presumably believe it to be over the traditional translation (which it doesn't appear you've made a serious effort to do).

With respect, your untraditional, unsubstantiated, fringe translation not only has the distinction of violating traditional interpretations of St. John 1 in a way that renders the text you're translating (not to mention the rest of the New Testament) an incoherent mess.

Hello, and thank you for the reply. As for proving the validity of my preferred translation, I have left an interlinear, linked with Strong's Concordance, as well as a Parsing key from biblehub.com. I have also copied the exact Greek text and inserted my translation of each word in parentheses. If you would like, I can do this again and link each word with a page that shows how each term is translated throughout the bible, or I can link each word to the Concordance. We have not discussed every verse in John 1 yet, so perhaps it will become less "incoherent" to you as we go along. I fail to see how this is any less coherent than the trinity. I'm sure you've heard this famous quote attributed to Augustine:

"If you try to understand the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny the Trinity, you will lose your soul."

Is this what the only true God has done? He has commanded men everywhere to believe in an incoherent triune God that Scripture makes no mention of, or else He will torture them "forever and ever"? This is incoherent.

I had originally wrote to CivilWarBuff why it is important that Yeshua is a man. If you don't mind, I will just copy it here...

The KJV translates dia as "by", as though Yeshua was the maker of all things. Modern bibles translate it "through" as though Yeshua was some sort of tool that God used. Dia means "because of". God had a Reason for making all things, and it was because of Yeshua. But why?

"And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:27

Yeshua is a man. God said He was making man in His image. Yeshua is the express image of God (Heb. 1:3).

"And God said, Let us make (H6213 asah: accomplish) man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

Yeshua is this accomplishment. We are all the son of Adam. The Jews thought Yeshua was claiming to be God by forgiving sins, since they believed only God can forgive sins. But Yeshua tells them otherwise:

"And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
And he arose, and departed to his house.
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men." Matthew 9:3

Notice the plural "men" at the end of this passage.

John does not say anything about a "preexisting word", an "incarnate god-man", or an "eternal begotten God the Son". He gives us the Reason for all things, and then when we ask "Why", he gives us a "because of" answer. Simple and beautiful. There is one God, and He is the Father.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Using simple logic, we can say:

A) the Father is the only God
B) Yeshua is not the Father
C) Yeshua is also God

If A and C are true, then Yeshua is the Father (but He isn't). If B and C are true, then A is not true (but it is). If A and B are true, then praise God our Father because He has given all authority to man!

That's what I wrote CivilWarBuff. I have more if you're interested. Thank you my friend and God bless you.
 
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anonymouswho

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That is almost like an oxymoron.....

Hey CivilWarBuff. I wasn't sure if you were following this thread or not. I wrote you a few days ago in response to:

"Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus Christ is the Word....He existed with God.....He (the Word) is God
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jesus Christ, Messiah was with God in the beginning
Joh 1:3 All things were made throughhim, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I don't even need to comment......

So, show me, in your own words (not some link) and with scripture that I am wrong."

This is what I have attempted to do. I was wondering if you find any flaws in my translation? Here is the interlinear to John 1 again...

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm

And here is an article for anyone interesting in learning about the various tenses and such in Greek:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/nouns1.htm

Here is what it says about the Genitive Case, since this will be relevant for several reasons:

"For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession. In more technical terms one noun in the genitive case helps to qualify another noun by showing its "class" or "kind". The genitive case has more uses than most other cases, but in general a noun in the genitive case helps to limit the scope of another noun by indicating its "kind" or "class". It is generally translated into English with a prepositional phrase starting with the word "of". The most common use of the genitive is to show possession (although it does not necessarily indicate actual, literal ownership)."

The Genitive Case is why we know that "ho huios tou Theou" says "the son of the God", rather than "the son the God". These rules are important, and the Greek writers used them for a reason.

Anyways, I was just wondering what you thought of all this. Thank you my friend and God bless.
 
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