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UK v US homicide rate 1. it's the guns

MorkandMindy

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The gun violence thread while very interesting is long and complex because there are so many factors.

I thought it might be best to have a thread for each factor to improve the focus

There appear to be three lines of reasoning - the higher rate of homicides in the US is due to:

1. the abundance of guns
2. the violent nature of occupants of the US
3. something about the combination of 1. and 2.

If for example the problem is the media sensationalises gun violence than that is an input into the minds and should be considered with all the other inputs into the minds of the occupants of the US (2).
 

SkyWriting

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The gun violence thread while very interesting is long and complex because there are so many factors.I thought it might be best to have a thread for each factor to improve the focus
There appear to be three lines of reasoning - the higher rate of homicides in the US is due to:
1. the abundance of guns
2. the violent nature of occupants of the US
3. something about the combination of 1. and 2.
If for example the problem is the media sensationalises gun violence than that is an input into the minds and should be considered with all the other inputs into the minds of the occupants of the US (2).

If this an attempt to shift the focus from France where guns are highly restricted?
France has strict gun laws.
List of terrorist incidents in France

 
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Shempster

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I was rolling my eyes at first when I read the title but you said:

1. the abundance of guns
2. the violent nature of occupants of the US
3. something about the combination of 1. and 2.

I cannot deny this. There are more guns in the US than people some statistics say. I know lots of gun owners. Not a 1 would point a gun at another human unless they were in danger of being killed themselves.
On your point #2, if you remove inner city gang shootings from the statistics you would find that intentional shootings are fairly rare. Another fact haters will run from. Shootings per 100,000...thats the formula. This country has nearly a third of a billion people. Practically nobody gets shot.

Look at some news stories from Israel. Palestinians are stabbing and running over (with cars) Jews on the streets and on the temple mount. Point #2 again.
Believe me, it starts with a PERSON desiring to kill another human (which is caused 100% by demon activity) They will kill with the most handy item available.
Guns are really not to blame. They can, however, be blamed for being a very handy item for some. Thats the sad part. I love target shooting.
We all know if you confiscate all guns the only ones on the streets will be owned by gangs and criminals...you know..the ones doing all the killing in the first place. Sheesh!!!
 
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MorkandMindy

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[QUOTE="Shempster, post: 69061734, member: 370929"...
Believe me, it starts with a PERSON desiring to kill another human (which is caused 100% by demon activity) They will kill with the most handy item available. ...
Guns are really not to blame. ... Sheesh!!![/QUOTE]

If you think that is what should be up for discussion then open a thread for it

It may well prove more interesting than the ones I opened

,
 
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MorkandMindy

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If more guns made us safer we would be the safest nation on earth.jpg


If more guns made a nation safer the US would be the safest nation on Earth
 
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Armoured

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MorkandMindy

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That's great and all, but without the inclusion of the rational-breaking "T-word"... how many people in France get killed with guns per year?

Far fewer people killed in France including your T word than due just to gun accidents in the US. Even back in 2001 just during that one year Americans were ten times as effective at killing other Americans as the assortment of mainly Saudi Arabians (our friends) were by flying planes into buildings.



Who would Jesus shoot.jpg
 
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Paradoxum

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I think the US has a gun culture, which promote gun sales, and idolizes the use of guns. In my ignorant opinion, this is the problem.

Too many Americans see guns as heroic and amazing, instead of dangerous death machines.
 
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MorkandMindy

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I think you have it there. Most Americans have never lived outside a gun culture so have no idea what it is like.

Since arriving here a year ago I have continued to be amazed at how much Americans believe about the outside World that is plain wrong. Trying to reason through the memeplex of misunderstandings is, as we can see in these gun threads, essentially impossible, and when the person sticks to the standpoints they have taken, it is even more unlikely.

Even for the few willing to discover another way of seeing things, there are at least two layers misunderstanding to get through, one is of emphasis and another is the framing effect.
 
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katerinah1947

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I think you have it there. Most Americans have never lived outside a gun culture so have no idea what it is like.

Since arriving here a year ago I have continued to be amazed at how much Americans believe about the outside World that is plain wrong. Trying to reason through the memeplex of misunderstandings is, as we can see in these gun threads, essentially impossible, and when the person sticks to the standpoints they have taken, it is even more unlikely.

Even for the few willing to discover another way of seeing things, there are at least two layers misunderstanding to get through, one is of emphasis and another is the framing effect.

Hi,

Most Americans have never lived outside of a culture that practically guarantees your freedoms, also.

You mention you are new to this country. Are you new also to defending the rights of others against all those who want to take away your rights?

Have you been exposed as your job, to protect life, or liberty, or the pursuit of happiness by an Amercan or even a visitor, at the cost of your life if need be?

If you have, then some of your observations are wrong.

If you have not, then those who do protect you, are doing a good enough job, so that you do not understand yet, as it would terrify you needlessly.

Precisely, the lack of knowledge, led to what happened at 9-11. Those of us who knew were ignored.

Ignorance, by the voting public, merely means they too, will have to learn, what those of us in the field, already know.

They will learn it though, the hard way. They will learn it by experience.

The rest of who know, will just have our hearts ripped out of us, once again, as you learn.

Do you think, all people did not know that, even the handling of Yasser Araphat, was incorrect by Americans? Do you think we did not know Iran would be making Nuclear Weapons, vastly before, they had their first enrichment centrifuge?

Some of us knew. Now, many others know also.

As long as there is some equality in America with weapons, at least more of you can die with a gun in your hands, than just a gun in your opponents hands.

Come out one day, on the streets with me. Some care nothing about me, or you, but only themselves. I have the police, to merely pick up my wounded and dead body if need be. Last week, I almost signed off from an assignment, permanently, again, because someone did not like what someone else was doing.

Sure. Sure the police would get involved, and the bad guys would lay low for awhile. All I had that day was my eyes. All I could do was stare at them in contempt and their utter stupidity, if they actually attacked me then. I would be dead or worse then, as I did go there without a weapon. And, I almost could not believe their malice, as I am establishment in my town. They were so upset with me, they might have not cared. I was caught unprotected yet again.

I work with street people sometimes. I work with the homeless sometimes. I work with them where they are and how they are. Come out with me sometime and see. I will use my permit to carry concealed, if you come with me. I will multi carry also. That will be to protect you. You will be as safe as I can make you, but without giving away any evidence to them, that I am carrying.

See if after, you deal with them, professional and otherwise shoplifters, armed and otherwise robbers, if you think equal protection under the law should be had by you.

They are armed. They do carry. They can even make their own guns from plumbing supplies. Powder for ammunition is easy also. Projectiles called bullets are easy also. And, they practice and plot.

I am happy people exist, who don't know. I am not happy when they ask to become like my kind, because they don't know any better..........Yet!

LOVE,
 
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toramei

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Abundance of guns readily available stolen or bought by proper means.The possibility of gun shootings.Good observation let's see I have a neighborhood store with many varieties of booze and beer.The possibility of drunk driving accidents.
So Mork and Mindy if we did have no guns in this land or booze will it really decrease the number of deaths involved?
What will be the next item to use for killings golf clubs,arrows,knives,swords,razor blades,baseball bats,cars,trucks,chainsaws,Fermented apple cider,corn mash,various fruits that can be fermented.
If you want it so bad you will find a way.
We come to the person's nature.
Does he want to murder someone?
Does he want to have one more drink for the road?
Choices that some people make fully aware of the results.
 
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MorkandMindy

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...
So Mork and Mindy if we did have no guns in this land or booze will it really decrease the number of deaths involved?
What will be the next item to use for killings golf clubs,arrows,knives,swords,razor blades,baseball bats,cars,trucks,chainsaws,Fermented apple cider,corn mash,various fruits that can be fermented.
If you want it so bad you will find a way.
We come to the person's nature.
...

That is a proposition, one proposed theory, possibly popularised by the gun makers lobby, but there are other proposals that may more closely fit the data

It also appears that most people in nations without big homicide rates don't accept the proposition made. But without evaluating a range of proposed theories I would suggest nobody has a chance of determining which one(s) is/are valid.
 
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toramei

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This boils down to motive.
Why does a human being want to murder another?
So how many murders have been committed in the world ?
How many gangs have been involved in drive by shootings?
Or maybe even throwing fire bombs?
So when someone is in a heated argument does that person escalate it into a homicide?
Be still and know GOD.
 
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MorkandMindy

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This boils down to motive.
Why does a human being want to murder another?
So how many murders have been committed in the world ?
How many gangs have been involved in drive by shootings?
Or maybe even throwing fire bombs?
So when someone is in a heated argument does that person escalate it into a homicide?
Be still and know GOD.

Why does the US with 35% born-again Christians and lots of committed church goers have four times the homicide rate of Britain where 7% are committed church goers, and there are a lot more Muslims (claimed by Americans to be violent)?

and this despite having far more of the population locked up in prison?
 
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katerinah1947

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Why does the US with 35% born-again Christians and lots of committed church goers have four times the homicide rate of Britain where 7% are committed church goers, and there are a lot more Muslims (claimed by Americans to be violent)?

and this despite having far more of the population locked up in prison?

Hi,

To me your question is contentious, but will be answered less you seem wise in your own eyes.

Because America is still fighting her wars over here, and one of those recent enough wars to be pertinent here, is one with The British who killed Americans who disagree with them;

Lest you forget, The British then killed us with guns.

Your position on guns is inaccurate, and if allowed will kill many innocent people.

The amazing part, is no matter what anyone shows you here, it seems to fall on your deaf ears.

Say what you want, as that is guaranteed for you in America, but that freedom for you to say what never has been true and never will be true, that weapons kill people, not people kill people, but weapons only do, with some of those weapons being words, was with BLOOD, and guns that freedom, that freedom was won for you, with BLOOD and guns.

Do I get to take away hands, as hands kill people?

Do I get to take away words, for words kill people also?

Do I get to make laws, for laws certainly get rid of crime?

What of the above, can any of us do, because it works?

We can give the law abiding, the, Same Rights as criminals have.

Are you for crime?

Are you for overthrowing this country really, as your words actually say?

If you are for crime, and overthrowing this country, then carry on.

If you are not, get real knowledge, knowledge of what actually works rather than what you are suggesting.

You are not right, on the issue of guns kill people, rather than people kill people.

Since, it seems that people kill people, rather than bombs or hands or fists do even, then maybe the only solution to so many innocent people being killed, is to eliminate the source of the problem.

Do you, are you, for lowering all forms of death by weapons?

If you are, by the realities, then support a ban on people, and get rid of them as fast as you can.

Otherwise use what works with criminals, and that is having the same weapons they do, Where they do, and When they do, which is almost Always.

LOVE,
 
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bhsmte

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Why does the US with 35% born-again Christians and lots of committed church goers have four times the homicide rate of Britain where 7% are committed church goers, and there are a lot more Muslims (claimed by Americans to be violent)?

and this despite having far more of the population locked up in prison?

Great question.

IMO, the answer is simple, the US has more people, that are willing and motivated to use a gun to kill others.
 
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Hieronymus

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I was rolling my eyes at first when I read the title but you said:

1. the abundance of guns
2. the violent nature of occupants of the US
3. something about the combination of 1. and 2.

I cannot deny this. There are more guns in the US than people some statistics say. I know hundreds of gun owners. Not a 1 would point a gun at another human unless they were in danger of being killed themselves. Gun haters simply will not face THIS fact.
But it's also a fact that not all gun owners are as peaceful as your hundreds.
 
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MorkandMindy

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People here are far to willing to see others as enemies. Iraq did the US no harm yet the US destroyed it.

And the same attitude is seen on an individual level.

I realised there is a comparison between the Puritans way back in the Boston area who seeing some people with a disorder of the nervous system caused by a mould, executed 20 of their own members as witches. Whereas often in other cultures epileptics were believed to have a 'holy disease' and were valued. But anything in the US that is different is often regarded with lethal suspicion. Unfortunately the Puritans are still regarded by many as the founders of the US and their negative attitude is one I see a lot in church circles and is really not a healthy frame of mind.
 
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toramei

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My parents came from Europe the Russians came into their peaceful nation used their tanks and guns to destroy them.Many fled the country,many were captured and sent to Siberia.
Just listening to the horror stories of many survivors of the middle eastern countries.
There is so much evil in this world.
People want to murder another by whatever means.
Governments want to conquer other countries even the ones that do not have armies or weapons.
This country so far has not suppressed the number of people murdered.
How many countries have?
 
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Chesterton

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I get really tired of this unfair bashing. I'm an American, have been a gun owner all my life, and I can absolutely assure you I HAVE NEVER SHOT ANYONE who didn't need shooting. Even if that were arguable I assure you the number of people I've shot is so low as to be statistically negligible. We're talking 5, 6 people tops. Granted, that time outside the bowling alley I shot several people, but certainly that should be properly counted as a single "shooting incident". Still, we're probably talking less than 10 people. Of course there was that one time when I was trying out a rifle but every new product has some learning curve, so that doesn't really count. Anyway, less than 12 for sure. Well, then there was that time I shot the DeLuca kid but c'mon, nobody likes that kid.

Regardless, I can absolutely assure you I've shot less than 20 people.

Oh, wait, 21.
 
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