It should be Murder?

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Well, I happen to believe that if you murder someone then you deserve to die. Even worse when it's a child. Even more evil when it's your own child. I don't think even wolves kill their own.

Well, 90% of abortions occur at the beginning of the first trimester when the group of cells in the uterus are properly called "embryo". I don't think I would refer to an embryo as a "child"...

 

[farout]

if abortion was illegal the IUD could be either viewed as a method of contraception or a method of early abortion so it depends on how if people see it as contraception or as an abortion tool . it would be debated right now its considered to be contraception and im sure people who are against abortion would see IUD's as contraception and be ok with it.

Most all forms of birth control are based on eliminating a fertilized egg before it implants on the wombs wall. Some even prevent the woman form allowing the implanting of the egg. The real only true birth control is the temperature method. My wife and I did not know about it until we were too old.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Well, 90% of abortions occur at the beginning of the first trimester when the group of cells in the uterus are properly called "embryo". I don't think I would refer to an embryo as a "child"...

Then you need to study basic biology. An embryo is an individual of the human species, just like you or I. In fact, the word 'fetus' actually comes from a latin word meaning "small child".

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Then you need to study basic biology. An embryo is an individual of the human species, just like you or I. In fact, the word 'fetus' actually comes from a latin word meaning "small child".

Then you need to study linguistics and perhaps philosophy of language. Habermas has argued that it wouldn't matter whether or not a word can be shown to have a lexical background wherein the parts of the term meant something altogether different to what the term means in precise usage today. The word "fetus" doesn't mean "small child" in much the same way that the word "planet" doesn't mean wanderer or "matter" meaning "wood" (Aristotle used the word "hyle" for "matter").

 

[KarateCowboy]

Then you need to study linguistics and perhaps philosophy of language. Habermas has argued that it wouldn't matter whether or not a word can be shown to have a lexical background wherein the parts of the term meant something altogether different to what the term means in precise usage today. The word "fetus" doesn't mean "small child" in much the same way that the word "planet" doesn't mean wanderer or "matter" meaning "wood" (Aristotle used the word "hyle" for "matter").

Ever hear of the word 'quibble', then? Because that's what you're doing. The point of my prior post is that an embryo is in many ways a small child, and our loanwords reflect that. An embryo is a human. Kill one and its murder.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Ever hear of the word 'quibble', then? Because that's what you're doing. The point of my prior post is that an embryo is in many ways a small child, and our loanwords reflect that.

The loanwords are irrelevant; in Russian "plod" (fetus) comes from "fruit". I don't know why you think an embyro is a small child, I don't.

 

[KarateCowboy]

The loanwords are irrelevant; in Russian "plod" (fetus) comes from "fruit". I don't know why you think an embyro is a small child, I don't.

OK well we can argue and quibble about etymology or we can find agreement in the fact that zygote, fetus, embryo, child, infant, toddler etc are all stages of the life cycle of a human individual.

 

[ScottA]

Oh goodness. My teaching days are long gone, but I can see I need to give you a brief lesson in history.

We, as communities, have always determined what is 'right' by coming to a consensus amongst ourselves.

We used to consider slavery to be 'right'.
We used to consider the destruction of witches as the 'right' thing to do.
We used to think it 'right' to accuse the mentally ill of being 'demonised'.

We no longer feel those things to be 'right' (apart from the sociopaths amongst us). And how did we arrive at this agreement? Did a copy of the Book For Being Good fall from the skies to direct us? No. We came to the slow realisation, as we argued amongst ourselves, found out more about the world, even warred over some issues, that these things were not 'right'. That they were not in our best interests to continue.

We did it ourselves.

Lesson over.

And that is your reasoning for sticking with what is commonly considered "right?" My, how we have learned...nothing.

 

[SteveB28]

And that is your reasoning for sticking with what is commonly considered "right?" My, how we have learned...nothing.

I met some unwilling students in the past, who simply couldn't be taught anything. Sad sometimes.

 

[ScottA]

I met some unwilling students in the past, who simply couldn't be taught anything. Sad sometimes.

You have made a case for not sticking with what is currently considered "right" (abortion), yet you stick with it anyway...and call it sad?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

OK well we can argue and quibble about etymology or we can find agreement in the fact that zygote, fetus, embryo, child, infant, toddler etc are all stages of the life cycle of a human individual.

You brought up etymology as though it were important, when I mentioned that it's not you said I was quibbling. Sperm and eggs are all parts of the stages of life cycles for human beings too, what's your point?

 

[SteveB28]

if abortion was illegal the IUD could be either viewed as a method of contraception or a method of early abortion so it depends on how if people see it as contraception or as an abortion tool . it would be debated right now its considered to be contraception and im sure people who are against abortion would see IUD's as contraception and be ok with it.

I'm imagining you do as I do and include your birth year in your username? That makes you a 43 year old woman, correct? If so, this is very embarrassing.

'Contra' means against. 'Ception' is a contraction of conception. So, 'contraception' is something which acts against, or prevents, conception. Such as a condom, or a birth control pill, or a spermicide cream.

An IUD does not act in this way. It permits conception, as I have already patiently explained. So you cannot squirm out of your ridiculous position by pretending that an IUD is now a contraceptive.

 

[SteveB28]

You have made a case for not sticking with what is currently considered "right" (abortion), yet you stick with it anyway...and call it sad?

Pardon? In your confusion, you are not making much sense.

I explained to you that our concept of 'right' is something at which we arrive through consensus. Sometimes it is a lengthy process, often a controversial one. And many times, after deciding upon a certain path, we come to decide on a different one.

If, one day, we come to a consensus that abortion is so egregious that it should be considered as 'murder', then you will have your day. But that day has never arrived thus far. And, given that our concept of 'right' usually revolves around the principle of 'least harm' (note: least not no harm), you shouldn't hold your breath while waiting.

 

[Belk]

Most all forms of birth control are based on eliminating a fertilized egg before it implants on the wombs wall. Some even prevent the woman form allowing the implanting of the egg. The real only true birth control is the temperature method. My wife and I did not know about it until we were too old.

I believe that is incorrect. I believe that is the least common form of birth control. The most common forms are barriers. Condoms, Sponges, Cervical caps, and spermicides. The next most common is hormonal control. Oral contraceptives, Patches, and shots.

 

[ScottA]

Pardon? In your confusion, you are not making much sense.

I explained to you that our concept of 'right' is something at which we arrive through consensus. Sometimes it is a lengthy process, often a controversial one. And many times, after deciding upon a certain path, we come to decide on a different one.

If, one day, we come to a consensus that abortion is so egregious that it should be considered as 'murder', then you will have your day. But that day has never arrived thus far. And, given that our concept of 'right' usually revolves around the principle of 'least harm' (note: least not no harm), you shouldn't hold your breath while waiting.

Wow! Dysfunction as a means of progress, about things of which there should be no question. That's creepy. I get goosebumps, just think about it!

 

[farout]

I believe that is incorrect. I believe that is the least common form of birth control. The most common forms are barriers. Condoms, Sponges, Cervical caps, and spermicides. The next most common is hormonal control. Oral contraceptives, Patches, and shots.

All this to avoid what God has intended, or for our own selfish reasons to be alone but for 2 or the 3 offspring's?

 

[SteveB28]

Wow! Dysfunction as a means of progress, about things of which there should be no question. That's creepy. I get goosebumps, just think about it!

"Dysfunction" in your opinion - in your opinion!

Most people disagree with it, have always disagreed with it on this issue. Learn to live with being wrong.

 

[farout]

Pardon? In your confusion, you are not making much sense.

I explained to you that our concept of 'right' is something at which we arrive through consensus. Sometimes it is a lengthy process, often a controversial one. And many times, after deciding upon a certain path, we come to decide on a different one.

If, one day, we come to a consensus that abortion is so egregious that it should be considered as 'murder', then you will have your day. But that day has never arrived thus far. And, given that our concept of 'right' usually revolves around the principle of 'least harm' (note: least not no harm), you shouldn't hold your breath while waiting.

Our world views are very much different. If right and wrong is arrived at by consensus, that is ISIS ruled than would you be willing to live under their right or wrong? Do you believe deciding by consensus is the best way to determine things?

 

[SteveB28]

Our world views are very much different. If right and wrong is arrived at by consensus, that is ISIS ruled than would you be willing to live under their right or wrong? Do you believe deciding by consensus is the best way to determine things?

It is the only way we have ever determined what we hold as 'right'. To answer your other question, I choose not to be a member of the ISIS community, because I reject the values they hold. But I am a member of the broader world community and the consensus of that community is that ISIS represents a fringe viewpoint, an aberrant viewpoint, that must be shown to be wrong.

Just as it did when the Christian world imposed the same kind of viewpoint several centuries ago.

And, to return to the discussion, abortion is NOT going to be held as murder, as long as the general consensus in our community holds that it is not.

 

[Belk]

All this to avoid what God has intended, or for our own selfish reasons to be alone but for 2 or the 3 offspring's?

Yes. Just like all of medicine is a selfish means to extend our lives instead of dying young like God intended.