It should be Murder?

[jenny1972]

Oh dear..

Have you forgotten? Under such a law, there would be no doctors performing abortions, because you've made it illegal!

Trust me, I well remember the era in which women largely had to go 'underground' to procure a termination, usually at the hands of unskilled people. It wasn't pretty. Such a stupid, stupid proposition would send us back to those days.

what makes you think they had to and didnt just want to ?

 

[jenny1972]

So you would have the ridiculous (not to mention immoral) situation of every woman who suffers a miscarriage being a potential 'murder' suspect! As is the case with genuine murder investigations, it would be the responsibility of those women, at a time when many are already emotionally burdened, to 'clear their names' of suspicion of murder.

In their manic zeal to find a way to control what women do with their own reproductive systems, the idiots who propose these measures simply don't care to examine the ramifications.

I dont think that every woman who miscarries would be a murder suspect just like every mother whos baby dies of natural causes isnt a murder suspect .

 

[jenny1972]

it would be the responsibility of those women, at a time when many are already emotionally burdened, to 'clear their names' of suspicion of murder.

wrong it would be the job of the prosecutor to show guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for a suspect who is presumed innocent until that time

 

[ximmix]

Well, it could be a miscarriage, or she could have given birth, so just no longer being preganent means nothing.

But she would still be under suspicion of murder...

 

[jenny1972]

Tell me this: (this is a question I asked in another discussion)

Would you make the wearing of a mechanical IUD an 'attempted murder' offence? An IUD works by preventing a fertilised egg from implanting in the wall of the uterus. Unable to implant, the egg perishes. Now, your stupid proposal is that the destruction of the product of conception would be viewed as murder. So, just as I can be charged with attempted murder if I, say, lace your glass of water with strychnine, would you have IUD-wearing women brought up on similar charges?

How many additional police officers, medical examiners, nursing staff, forensic specialists, etc do you think would need to be employed to administer this idiotic scheme? Given that an estimated 20-50% of all pregnancies spontaneously abort and that, under this plan, they would have to be cleared of any skullduggery, what do you imagine would be the increase in government budgets?

I dont think there would be any increase in federal budget as most will be considered natural miscarriages unless there is supporting evidence to think an investigation is necessary most cases wouldnt be investigated and assumed to be miscarriages

 

[ximmix]

I dont think there would be any increase in federal budget as most will be considered natural miscarriages unless there is supporting evidence to think an investigation is necessary most cases wouldnt be investigated and assumed to be miscarriages

Well that's kind of the point isn't it? You say most are natural miscarriages, but how do you know? Could be murder... Do you call in the cops, the feds..? I say lock up all pregnant women, if they conceive the are free to go. For now...

 

[jenny1972]

Well that's kind of the point isn't it? You say most are natural miscarriages, but how do you know? Could be murder... Do you call in the cops, the feds..? I say lock up all pregnant women, if they conceive the are free to go. For now...

well since in our society one is innocent until proven guilty of a crime and not prosecuted or even investigated unless there is a strong suspicion that a crime has been committed some will be some will be investigated and some will not be investigated just like if any baby dies it is assumed it was natural unless there is a reason to suspect otherwise.

 

[ximmix]

well since in our society one is innocent until proven guilty of a crime and not prosecuted or even investigated unless there is a strong suspicion that a crime has been committed some will be some will be investigated and some will not be investigated just like if any baby dies it is assumed it was natural unless there is a reason to suspect otherwise.

Ok, so unless there is reason to suspect otherwise the mother can go free. Who decides if there is reasons to suspect otherwise? You..?

 

[jenny1972]

Ok, so unless there is reason to suspect otherwise the mother can go free. Who decides if there is reasons to suspect otherwise? You..?

if she presents at a hospital with self inflicted wounds that indicate an abortion that would be reason to suspect an abortion has taken place and not a natural miscarriage .

 

[ximmix]

if she presents at a hospital with self inflicted wounds that indicate an abortion that would be reason to suspect an abortion has taken place and not a natural miscarriage .

Ok, so obvious physical evidence might hold up in court then. But who decides when to investigate the possible murder of a natural miscarriage. It might be natural or it maybe it isn't...

 

[jenny1972]

Ok, so obvious physical evidence might hold up in court then. But who decides when to investigate the possible murder of a natural miscarriage. It might be natural or it maybe it isn't...

If a healthcare provider thinks that a crime has been committed they should report it just like suspected child abuse has to be reported by professionals coming into contact with children those professionals who are in contact with pregnant women doctors nurses obgyn's exc. should report possible murder or harm against a fetus

 

[ximmix]

I'm not familiar with miscarriages at all, but aren't they usually in the home?

 

[Cearbhall]

you appeared to have an issue with investigating possible crimes

No, I have an issue with investigating miscarriages specifically. I and others have been pointing out that this would be necessary in order to be consistent with the purpose of a proposed pro-life law that would outlaw clinical abortions.

It's an important argument because many pro-life people seem to think that the legality of abortion is inconsistent with other U.S. laws, when it actually fits perfectly with our laws regarding organ donation, privacy rights, etc. There are a whole host of other laws that would need to change if the United States were to become a truly pro-life nation.

 

[PapaZoom]

Nice ad homenim.

not to mention that arguments don't have genitalia so there's that as well. Pro-life women make the same argument you've made all the time.

http://www.feministsforlife.org

 

[SteveB28]

How many more police would it take to enforce stricter gun laws?

I think the Americans have an expression about 'moving the goalposts'? I would be happy to discuss gun control with you in a discussion about gun control. This discussion is about making abortion a crime of murder. Please stay on track.

 

[jenny1972]

I'm not familiar with miscarriages at all, but aren't they usually in the home?

i dont know the statistics of where they occur

 

[jenny1972]

No, I have an issue with investigating miscarriages specifically. I and others have been pointing out that this would be necessary in order to be consistent with the purpose of a proposed pro-life law that would outlaw clinical abortions.

It's an important argument because many pro-life people seem to think that the legality of abortion is inconsistent with other U.S. laws, when it actually fits perfectly with our laws regarding organ donation, privacy rights, etc. There are a whole host of other laws that would need to change if the United States were to become a truly pro-life nation.

America did used to be a pro-life nation

 

[SteveB28]

what makes you think they had to and didnt just want to ?

Oh, this is almost becoming painful.

They "had to go underground" because it was illegal to procure an abortion by any other means!

Are you actually stopping to read what is written!?

 

[Cearbhall]

America did used to be a pro-life nation

When? Range of years, please.

Oh, this is almost becoming painful.

Tell me about it.

 

[SteveB28]

I dont think that every woman who miscarries would be a murder suspect just like every mother whos baby dies of natural causes isnt a murder suspect .

But there is an investigation carried out when a baby or child dies, is there not? Under your ridiculous proposal, every loss of pregnancy that is known about would have to be investigated, for fear that a 'murder' had occurred.

And I note that you have swerved well away from my question about IUD's. Why would that be?