Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

....to meet the Lord in the air above the ground where the clouds are ie(the sky where the birds fly /First Heaven ) = --Jesus coming in the clouds Matthew 24:29-30--

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is the air is the cosmos, the second heaven, which Satan is the prince of power of the air - which is the domain of the rebellious angels, which that second heaven will be removed in the sixth seal - leaving no place for Satan and his angels there any more. Satan and his rebellious angels are not roaming around freely in the third heaven where God is, otherwise there would be sin in heaven (the third heaven).

Do you think Jesus when he ascended up into the cloud in Acts 1, from there, passed through the Cosmos on his way to heaven where God's throne is ?

We do know the Cosmos exists. We don't know it's limits. But imo there must be an entry point, called a door metophorically, that is some sort of dimensional portal, which travel is done between the second and third heavens.

Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Why should it be another coming than the coming that Jesus Himself and all the Prophets of the OT said will happen?

Because Jesus coming exclusively for the redemption of the body of both the living and dead, it's actual happening, was shrouded in a mystery in the the OT. It was not until Paul's letters of how that mystery will take place.

 

[n2thelight]

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is the air is the cosmos, the second heaven, which Satan is the prince of power of the air - which is the domain of the rebellious angels, which that second heaven will be removed in the sixth seal - leaving no place for Satan and his angels there any more. Satan and his rebellious angels are not roaming around freely in the third heaven where God is, otherwise there would be sin in heaven (the third heaven).

Do you think Jesus when he ascended up into the cloud in Acts 1, from there, passed through the Cosmos on his way to heaven where God's throne is ?

We do know the Cosmos exists. We don't know it's limits. But imo there must be an entry point, called a door metophorically, that is some sort of dimensional portal, which travel is done between the second and third heavens.

Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


Because Jesus coming exclusively for the redemption of the body of both the living and dead, it's actual happening, was shrouded in a mystery in the the OT. It was not until Paul's letters of how that mystery will take place.

So are you saying that the mystery Paul spoke of was the rapture?

 

[Douggg]

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming

The problem with that notion is the New Jerusalem does come down from heaven until there is a new heaven and new earth, 1000 years after Jesus has returned.

I can agree with you about the concept that the mansions are the New Jerusalem - but not that it arrives with Jesus at his second coming. Thus in order to be in those mansions when Jesus comes for us to receive us unto himself - it is a separate coming to take us to heaven, separate from his commonly called Second Coming (his coming back down to earth to rule and reign here).

 

[Douggg]

So are you saying that the mystery Paul spoke of was the rapture?

I think Paul spoke of at least three mystery's. One was the mystery of how the gentiles would be a part of the Kingdom of God.

Another is the mystery of the gospel itself, kept secret from "understanding" until after the resurrection (1Corinthians2:7-8). I refer to that mystery all the time.

The other mystery, the one we associate with the rapture/resurrection redemption of the body, is that we shall not all sleep (that is, die) but one generation would not die, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1Corinthians15:51-52

 

[n2thelight]

I think Paul spoke of at least three mystery's. One was the mystery of how the gentiles would be a part of the Kingdom of God.

Another is the mystery of the gospel itself, kept secret from "understanding" until after the resurrection (1Corinthians2:7-8). I refer to that mystery all the time.

The other mystery, the one we associate with the rapture/resurrection redemption of the body, is that we shall not all sleep (that is, die) but one generation would not die, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1Corinthians15:51-52

Who are those that won't sleep(die)?

 

[Psalm3704]

When is this change?

At the return of Christ,His one and only,call it a rapture or whatever,fact remains,Christ returns once more,not twice

As for the repopulation there won't be any,as the age of flesh is over...

You might want to study other parts of the bible to be sure the change applies to the millennium after Christ returns.

The bible said women will still give birth and have children in the millennium: Isaiah 65:23. Except those who were raptured with glorified bodied, people will live longer lives in the millennium: Isaiah 65:20, 22, but not immortality. Least not yet until after satan is defeated at the Gog Magog war and cast into the lake of fire. Be kinda hard to have a war at the end if no one at the rebellion can die.

Isaiah 65:17-25 ERV
17 “I am creating a new heaven and a new earth.
The troubles of the past will be forgotten.
No one will remember them.
18 My people will be happy and rejoice forever and ever
because of what I will make.
I will make a Jerusalem that is full of joy,
and I will make her people happy.
19 “Then I will rejoice with Jerusalem.
I will be happy with my people.
There will never again be crying
and sadness in that city.

20 In that city there will never be a baby who lives only a few days,
and every older person will live for a long, long time.
A person who lives 100 years will be called young.
And whoever doesn’t live that long will be considered cursed.

21 “In that city whoever builds a house will live there;
whoever plants a vineyard will eat the grapes from that garden.
22 Never again will one person build a house
and another person live there.
Never again will one person plant a garden
and another eat the fruit from it.
My people will live as long as the trees.
My chosen people will get full use of whatever they make.

23 Never again will a woman suffer childbirth
and have her baby die.
Women will not fear childbirth.
I, the Lord, will bless all my people and their children.

24 I will answer them before they call for help.
I will help them before they finish asking.
25 Wolves and little lambs will eat together.
Lions will eat hay like cattle,
and snakes will eat only dust.
They will not hurt or destroy each other on my holy mountain.”
This is what the Lord said.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah 65:17-25&version=ERV







.​

 

[Postvieww]

What is the mystery in 1 Cor.15?


1 Corin 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


Christ


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


This is the only direct reference to the coming of the Lord in this entire chapter. It is not the topic or context of this chapter. The coming here is not the mystery Paul spoke of in verse 51. The context and subject of this entire chapter is the resurrection. If you use this chapter to teach a mystery coming of the Lord, you have ignored the plain and obvious subject of this chapter to teach error and further a personal agenda.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


This is what will happen right after the resurrection, not seven years after!


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?


31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.


33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.


34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


Question raised context reaffirmed.


36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.


Paul describes the different types of bodies.


41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


The theme and context of entire chapter is “the resurrection of the dead.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Two types of bodies, natural and spiritual.


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


This verse does not say flesh and blood cannot go to heaven (where God dwells) it says “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


This is the mystery of which Paul wrote this entire chapter. We shall be changed from a natural body to a spiritual body.


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1. “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” is how fast it will happen.

2. “at the last trump” is when it will happen.

3. This verse says a trumpet will sound. That will be a literal trumpet, unless someone can show scripture to prove otherwise. This is NOT a reference to the voice of God, that is described in other passages.


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.



This chapter in no way supports a pretrib rapture! Any attempt to make do so is error!

 

[Short Timer]

Reread what Paul said ,the mystery is Not about a mystery coming of Jesus.The mystery is about the change into immortality of those in Christ still alive that will happen in the twinkling of the eye.

The OT describes events right up to the "Cutting off of the Messiah", then there is a "Blank space" until the start of the trib, with much of it explained and the Second coming.

It's that blank space in scripture that makes Jesus/church/rapture a "Mystery", clues about it are there but wasn't revealed until Jesus/church came,

and the same way the coming of Jesus/church was a mystery, so is the way they leave the earth a mystery, some not even keeping that appointment with death, changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Of course Israel doesn't believe the Messiah has already come or that God is ignoring the Jews for the moment and the Messiah is preaching the gospel to the Gentiles.

And they believe that partly because of that blank space in the OT that starts with Jesus/church and end after the Rapture, and pickup again with the trib.

The same way the gospel was taken from Israel and give only to the Gentiles, blinding Israel, the Rapture of the church was never intended to be a "Jewish event",

but an event that involved only the "Body of Christ" and the blinders not coming off Israel until after the "Fulness (of time) for the Gentiles, or Rapture,

After which God will use the AC/trib to chastise Israel/backslider/world.

You just about have to be ignorant of the whole bible not to understand why the rapture is a "body of Christ" event that doesn't involve the Jews who rejected Jesus,

and why the Body of Christ/HG would have to be "Taken out of the way" before God could send this AC with his lying signs and wonders, and power to overcome "all flesh".

God never promised Israel a Rapture, which is why there is no mention of a rapture where scripture describes God dealing with Israel, only the "Body of Christ" is promised a Rapture, which is why it's a "mystery" to Israel, (and most here).

People who don't believe in a Pre trib rapture can't know much about scripture or the Feast, which also prefigure the Pre trib rapture with the "Feast of trumpets".

But like the Jews, without signs and wonders, some won't believe,
and like the Jews, they will get to "see" it,

the consequences of rejecting the "Trump/Voice of God" (HG) trying to teach them "Today".

 

[Douggg]

Who are those that won't sleep(die)?

Those are ones who are living at the time the rapture/resurrection takes place.

1thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

1. “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” is how fast it will happen.

2. “at the last trump” is when it will happen.

3. This verse says a trumpet will sound. That will be a literal trumpet, unless someone can show scripture to prove otherwise. This is NOT a reference to the voice of God, that is described in other passages.

But the passage that does have Jesus descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, and with the trump of God is clearly the rapture verses.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
1thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
As far as the trumpet being perceived to be a voice - John in Chapter 4, as he was being called up to heaven...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now who would be saying to John, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" ?

You should consider the anytime rapture view because we aren't going to be able to control the rapture with our arguments.

 

[Postvieww]

Coming of the Lord Passages:

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Rev 19:14 “the armies which were in heaven followed him”

1 Thess 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”


15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.




Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Jude 14 “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”

1 Thess 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


1. Matt 24 doesn’t mention Jesus or armies on a white horses, Rev 19 does.

2. Matt 24 mentions a trumpet, Rev 19 does not.

3. Matt 24 mentions coming in the clouds, Rev 19 does not.

4. Matt 24 mentions sun ,moon and stars, Rev 19 does not.

5. Matt 24 or Rev 19 doesn’t say his feet shall stand on the Mt of Olives, Zech 14 does

6. Zech. Does not say He comes from heaven, Matt and Rev do, Jude implies it.


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Jude 14 “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”

Rev 19:14 “the armies which were in heaven followed him”

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;




1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1. The only thing 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corin 15 have in common is a trumpet.

2. 1 Thess says we will be caught up but 1 Corin 15 only says we will be changed.

3. 1 Thess. mentions the Lord descending from heaven and shouting 1 Corin 15 does not.


I believe most pre and post tribbers will agree the 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corin 15 passages above are the same event. Also I believe most pre and post tribbers will agree the Matt 24 and Rev 19 passages are the same event. The disagreement starts when someone says all four are the same event. Then pre-tribbers begin to point out the differences that prove their point. Here are some facts we must settle:


1. No two coming of the Lord passages in the entire word of God are identical.

2. There are some overlapping similarities in many of them.

3. To simply say there is no resurrection in one or there is no trumpet in one proves nothing. As my examples show there are differences in passages that most all of us agree are the same event.


Things that tie all of them together:


1. Matt 24:30 “then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven”

Rev 19:11 “I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him”

2 Thess 2:1 “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”

1 Thess 4:16 ” For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven”


2. Matt 24:31 “with a great sound of a trumpet”

1 Thess 4:16 “with the trump of God”

1 Corin 15:52 “at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound”


3. Matt 24:31 “they shall gather together his elect”

1 Thess 4:17 “caught up together with them”

2 Thess 2:2 “by our gathering together unto him”


4. Jude , Revelation and 1 Thess says He comes with, saints, armies or them that sleep in Jesus (I submit they are the same group) the rest of the passages do not.


With all the differences and similarities I’ve pointed out here there are still more I didn’t mention. The point here is when one makes a Doctrinal stand by pointing out some little difference in wording they are on shaky ground and shifting sand at best. We need to harmonize these scriptures rather than divide them up into our neat little "my pet doctrinal" piles.


Will someone really address the main point here. There are not 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical. How can we then in good conscience divide them up based on minor differences in wording? They all describe the same event with different details.

There is only one more coming of the Lord and resurrection of the righteous dead!

 

[Douggg]

3. To simply say there is no resurrection in one or there is no trumpet in one proves nothing.

But if both the rapture and the resurrection are absent plus Jesus is not the one doing the gathering, and there is a passage in Deuteronomy 30 that is essentially the same as the text - then that is proof Matthew24:31 is not the rapture/resurrection.

 

[Douggg]

1. Matt 24 doesn’t mention Jesus or armies on a white horses, Rev 19 does.

2. Matt 24 mentions a trumpet, Rev 19 does not.

3. Matt 24 mentions coming in the clouds, Rev 19 does not.

4. Matt 24 mentions sun ,moon and stars, Rev 19 does not.

5. Matt 24 or Rev 19 doesn’t say his feet shall stand on the Mt of Olives, Zech 14 does

6. Zech. Does not say He comes from heaven, Matt and Rev do, Jude implies it.

But those are not rapture/resurrection differences. In the pairs you have listed, there is not a rapture/resurrection in one, but the other.

 

[Postvieww]

But the passage that does have Jesus descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, and with the trump of God is clearly the rapture verses.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
1thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
As far as the trumpet being perceived to be a voice - John in Chapter 4, as he was being called up to heaven...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now who would be saying to John, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" ?

You should consider the anytime rapture view because we aren't going to be able to control the rapture with our arguments.

Dougg said:
But the passage that does have Jesus descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, and with the trump of God is clearly the rapture verses.

1thessalonians4:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have predetermined it is a rapture passage, I believe it is a second coming passage. See my post # 5035.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

As far as the trumpet being perceived to be a voice - John in Chapter 4, as he was being called up to heaven...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now who would be saying to John, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" ?

As you highlighted in blue the words “as it were of a trumpet talking with me” the voice was described like a trumpet, it does not say it was a trumpet. It could refer to the power and clarity of a trumpet. Do you really believe when Jesus speaks it is a literal trumpet? 1 Thess 4:16 already said the Lord shouted , then mentions the voice of the archangel, “AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD” . I take this to be a literal trumpet, as I do the “last trump” of 1 Corin 15. We may just have to agree to disagree on the trumpet.


You should consider the anytime rapture view because we aren't going to be able to control the rapture with our arguments.

You are correct we will not control anything laid out in the word of God by “our arguments”.

If you or anyone else could show me a Jesus could come at any moment scripture, I would consider it.

Jesus said He would come “at the last day” “immediately after the tribulation of those days” . Paul said that day could not come until after the “falling away and that man of sin be revealed”.

 

[Postvieww]

But those are not rapture/resurrection differences. In the pairs you have listed, there is not a rapture/resurrection in one, but the other.

You missed the point of the post.

 

[Douggg]

Will someone really address the main point here. There are not 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical. How can we then in good conscience divide them up based on minor differences in wording? They all describe the same event with different details.

The thing to focus on is what passages have both the rapture/resurrection clearly stated to be with his coming (1thess4:13-18). Then determine, does that coming has any of the other activities associated with his Second Coming stated in the text?

If the answer is no. Which it is no. Then the coming for the rapture/resurrection coming is separate from the Second Coming if all the Second Coming passages do not state in the text a rapture/resurrection taking place.

 

[Douggg]

You have predetermined it is a rapture passage, I believe it is a second coming passage. See my post # 5035.

What I think you believe is that it is a rapture/resurrection passage - that takes place at the Second coming.

You are not disagreeing that 1thess4:16-17 is the rapture/resurrection, are you?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Short Timer]

Will someone really address the main point here. There are not 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical. How can we then in good conscience divide them up based on minor differences in wording? They all describe the same event with different details.

There is only one more coming of the Lord and resurrection of the righteous dead!

Pre trib:
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Second coming:
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Re 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Anybody with even minimal knowledge of scripture recognizes the differences of the "Times" between the Rapture and Second coming.

 

[Douggg]

If you or anyone else could show me a Jesus could come at any moment scripture, I would consider it.

Jesus said He would come “at the last day” “immediately after the tribulation of those days” . Paul said that day could not come until after the “falling away and that man of sin be revealed”.

May I make a suggestion? If you want to hold to the post trib view, do it in a manner that leaves you open to the chance you could be wrong. You could say that you are anytime rapture view, that the rapture could take place anytime between now and when it actually does..... but you lean toward the post trib probability because, then give all your rationale.

The anytime rapture view is a phrase I coined for myself, because I get tired of arguing the rapture so much... which if a person takes a rigid pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, post-trib stance becomes locked in. When really, all we can do is be ready ourselves, to be watching looking up, hopeful for it to take place. We can't control the rapture with our arguments.

The anytime rapture view is a good view, and the only view that it is impossible to be wrong.

 

[Postvieww]

What I think you believe is that it is a rapture/resurrection passage - that takes place at the Second coming.

You are not disagreeing that 1thess4:16-17 is the rapture/resurrection, are you?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is correct. I believe 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinn 15 describe that aspect of the second coming, I believe Matt 24 an Rev 19 describe a different aspect of the second coming. As I pointed out there are things that line up from all of them . I believe it is error to make another coming just because of the different aspects described. Think about what I pointed out, no 2 coming of the Lord passages are identical, do we make 5 or 6 comings because they don’t all agree on every point?