Paul's limited understanding!

[HebrewVaquero]

Revelation 2:14 doesn't mention Paul at all.

The NT is clear that we do not follow the Jewish law to be saved, and Gentiles, who were never under the law anyway, do not have to put themselves under it after they come to Jesus. The law has not been abolished; Jesus came to fulfil it for the Jew - those who were under it. And those who weren't under it don't need to start because Jesus is all we need.

Ummm.... did I say it mentioned Paul?
Revelation 2:14 Jesus personally condemns the PRATICES taught by Paul.

The Law can save, however we are the weak link, thus the need for Jesus.

Outside of Paul NOWHERE is it written not to follow the Law (Torah, Instructions from God).

 

[HebrewVaquero]

God's grace is not cheap; it cost Jesus his life.

It's cheap in the sense people think all you have to do is say a sinners prayer and shazam it's done.

 

[Strong in Him]

Ummm.... did I say it mentioned Paul?
Revelation 2:14 Jesus personally condemns the PRATICES taught by Paul.

The Law can save, however we are the weak link, thus the need for Jesus.

Outside of Paul NOWHERE is it written not to follow the Law (Torah, Instructions from God).

So when Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), the angel said that Jesus would save people from their sins (Matthew 1:21), Peter said that the name of Jesus is the only name that can save, (Acts 4:12) and John the Baptist said that Jesus was the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world (John 1:29) what they actually meant was "Jesus will die a horrible death so that you can be forgiven and have eternal life, then you can go away and follow the Jewish law, which will save you?

Jesus said that he had come to fulfil the law. At Mt Sinai, the law was given, and a covenant made, with God's people - those he had rescued from slavery in Egypt. THEY were given his law to teach them how to live as his holy people.
But everything changed when Jesus, God, came to earth and gave his life for us. Jesus offered his life, once and for all, for the sins of the world. He said that he alone was the way to the Father, John 14:6, the giver of eternal life, John 14:6, 3:16, 6:53.

NOWHERE did he say, well I'll make you clean and forgive you but after that your salvation depends on your ability to keep the Torah - which, by the way, includes how to offer sacrifices for sin. Jesus said "If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed", NOT the Son will set you free so you can put yourselves under the burden of the law. If it was essential for gentile believers to obey the Torah, Jesus would have said so.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's cheap in the sense people think all you have to do is say a sinners prayer and shazam it's done.

If someone understands that they have sinned against God, that however good they are they cannot earn his forgiveness and eternal life, are truly sorry, repent and accept and trust him as their Saviour - they are indeed saved.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Pure speculation. You never know; it may have turned out better without Paul.

Without Paul you can look at Israel today and the Mideast and see how things would be compared to America and parts of Europe who were all affected greatly by Christianity and almost zilch by Judaism and OT Law based religions.

However it is easy to see how a gospel of lawlessness and cheap grace would encircle the world.

Paul rejects your claim and to say God's grace is CHEAP is insulting to the cross, it is saying God did a half baked job when it comes to salvation God did half of it and now you have to pay for the rest of your salvation by making sure you are good enough.

 

[Sophrosyne]

It's cheap in the sense people think all you have to do is say a sinners prayer and shazam it's done.

So you're saying that God didn't pay enough to "do it all"?

 

[Sophrosyne]

So you're saying that God didn't pay enough to "do it all"?

If someone buys you a plane ticket to Hawaii do you have to go clean the bathrooms at the airport in order to board the plane?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Absolutely. Not to mention that if you toss out Paul you toss out the Bible, because how could we trust which books are correct and which are not? How could we trust the Holy Spirit, who inspired people to speak, and write, from God and allowed people to mess God's word up - apparently - by including letters from Paul? How could we trust the teaching that nothing can separate us from the love of God, or that we are given gifts by the Holy Spirit, or 1001 other things?

Also tossing Paul out has those who are not Jews wondering what they should do and where they fit as only Paul addresses where Non Jews stand in Christ. The emphasis on our standing culminated at the Council of Jerusalem where the dividing line between Judaism and Christianity was established. Those who reject Paul have to either reject or totally distort the Council's edict because without the Gospel of Grace the only logical alternative is to be thrust back under the Law of Moses and essentially that means Jesus died for almost nothing at all because under the Law of Moses nobody had any promise of salvation offered to them.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

So when Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), the angel said that Jesus would save people from their sins (Matthew 1:21), Peter said that the name of Jesus is the only name that can save, (Acts 4:12) and John the Baptist said that Jesus was the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world (John 1:29) what they actually meant was "Jesus will die a horrible death so that you can be forgiven and have eternal life, then you can go away and follow the Jewish law, which will save you?

No, but close. Jeremiah 31:34

Jesus said that he had come to fulfil the law. At Mt Sinai, the law was given, and a covenant made, with God's people - those he had rescued from slavery in Egypt. THEY were given his law to teach them how to live as his holy people.
But everything changed when Jesus, God, came to earth and gave his life for us. Jesus offered his life, once and for all, for the sins of the world. He said that he alone was the way to the Father, John 14:6, the giver of eternal life, John 14:6, 3:16, 6:53.

What changed? Are you saying now we have Lawlessness?
Sure, if we follow the Spirit we will keep the Law, but there are those who teach if you follow the Spirit you can break the Law because the Law has been abolished.
This ^ isn't what Jesus taught!

NOWHERE did he say, well I'll make you clean and forgive you but after that your salvation depends on your ability to keep the Torah - which, by the way, includes how to offer sacrifices for sin. Jesus said "If the Son sets you free you will be free indeed", NOT the Son will set you free so you can put yourselves under the burden of the law. If it was essential for gentile believers to obey the Torah, Jesus would have said so.

Sadly this is a showcase of the typical Christian misconception of Torah.
I lovingly advise you to understand the true meaning of Torah before continuing to misrepresent what God calls Holy.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Also tossing Paul out has those who are not Jews wondering what they should do and where they fit as only Paul addresses where Non Jews stand in Christ. The emphasis on our standing culminated at the Council of Jerusalem where the dividing line between Judaism and Christianity was established. Those who reject Paul have to either reject or totally distort the Council's edict because without the Gospel of Grace the only logical alternative is to be thrust back under the Law of Moses and essentially that means Jesus died for almost nothing at all because under the Law of Moses nobody had any promise of salvation offered to them.

??????!
The Councils edict WAS the Law of Moses.

Do you not know this?

Perhaps it could be because you've taken the word of others and not studied this for yourself?

Psst...I'll tell you a Christendom secret: get a good reference Bible and you will see (contrary to popular belief) James bases his descion on the Law of Moses.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

If someone buys you a plane ticket to Hawaii do you have to go clean the bathrooms at the airport in order to board the plane?

No BUT.....
You have to be there at the right time then you have to walk your happy little self to the plane, finding the right gate, presenting your ticket, going through security, boarding the plane and finding your seat. If you don't follow these instructions (Torah) you will miss your plane.

(Although, I'm sure Jesus will have to throw some Pauline Christians over His shoulder to be carried all the way)

 

[Sophrosyne]

??????!
The Councils edict WAS the Law of Moses.

Do you not know this?

Perhaps it could be because you've taken the word of others and not studied this for yourself?

Psst...I'll tell you a Christendom secret: get a good reference Bible and you will see (contrary to popular belief) James bases his descion on the Law of Moses.

Yes, James decided the Law of Moses wasn't necessary for Gentiles.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No BUT.....
You have to be there at the right time then you have to walk your happy little self to the plane, finding the right gate, presenting your ticket, going through security, boarding the plane and finding your seat. If you don't follow these instructions (Torah) you will miss your plane.

(Although, I'm sure Jesus will have to throw some Pauline Christians over His shoulder to be carried all the way)

This isn't a serious analogy, one could easily equate "grace" with the ease of keeping these simple instructions compared to the ones that are equated by those who scream "cheap grace" and "lawlessness" compare the rules you demand compliance to and see how many are left off the plane in the lobby of the airport.... or even not even allowed in the terminal.
BTW Grace isn't license to sin, and loving your neighbor and God isn't lawlessness because doing so one is a "law unto themselves". Paul goes to lengths to encourage Christians to do right, instead of focusing on doing "not wrong" (the law).

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Yes, James decided the Law of Moses wasn't necessary for Gentiles.

Nooooooo.....
If you choose to believe hear say then you will listen to whoever tickles your ears, therefore you refuse to listen to my words.
I've pointed you in the right direction, asking you to read it for yourself so that you will know for yourself and not listen to hear say, mine or any others.

Is it fear or laziness that keeps you from studying the applicable Old Testament scriptures which James based his decision on?

If you can't find them, I will gladly help.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Nooooooo.....
If you choose to believe hear say then you will listen to whoever tickles your ears, therefore you refuse to listen to my words.
I've pointed you in the right direction, asking you to read it for yourself so that you will know for yourself and not listen to hear say, mine or any others.

Is it fear or laziness that keeps you from studying the applicable Old Testament scriptures which James based his decision on?

If you can't find them, I will gladly help.

I've read the Bible, and understand well enough you aren't going to pull the wool over my eyes and tell me that the practice of circumcision means something that it doesn't. I fully reject Christian doctrinal help from anyone who rejects Paul, as I contend rejecting Paul is rejecting Jesus himself.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm pretty much through after that, Paul's Gospel of Grace IS what Christianity is about and those who throw him under the bus I want no part of their thinking and I strongly suggest anyone else who rejects Paul rejects the Grace of God and that rejection has one the center of their salvation and not Jesus himself.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

This isn't a serious analogy, one could easily equate "grace" with the ease of keeping these simple instructions compared to the ones that are equated by those who scream "cheap grace" and "lawlessness" compare the rules you demand compliance to and see how many are left off the plane in the lobby of the airport.... or even not even allowed in the terminal.
BTW Grace isn't license to sin, and loving your neighbor and God isn't lawlessness because doing so one is a "law unto themselves". Paul goes to lengths to encourage Christians to do right, instead of focusing on doing "not wrong" (the law).

Grace (unmerited favor) is only the ticket given to you without having to pay for it (the opportunity to board the plane)

You still have to walk your happy little self over there, and for that you'll need some help, enter the Torah and the Holy Spirit (the instructions and the power to keep them).

 

[HebrewVaquero]

I've read the Bible, and understand well enough you aren't going to pull the wool over my eyes and tell me that the practice of circumcision means something that it doesn't. I fully reject Christian doctrinal help from anyone who rejects Paul, as I contend rejecting Paul is rejecting Jesus himself.

If you think I reject Paul, you've been reading my posts with the same preciseness you read the Scriptures with.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Grace (unmerited favor) is only the ticket given to you without having to pay for it (the opportunity to board the plane)

You still have to walk your happy little self over there, and for that you'll need some help, enter the Torah and the Holy Spirit (the instructions and the power to keep them).

I'm sorry but your analogy fails, as the act of going to an airport and boarding a plane doesn't even begin to compare to living your life under the Law. It is akin to saying if I do right for just one day I'm good, and this is the argument you are making of "lawlessness" as one day isn't good enough.

 

[Sophrosyne]

If you think I reject Paul, you've been reading my posts with the same preciseness you read the Scriptures with.

I'll let others decide.... as I'm not here to change your mind but rather those who read what you and I have said they can decide for themselves.