Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Adam was told that if he ate the fruit that God had forbidden he would die. He disobeyed by eating the fruit, but didn't physically die right away. Was God lying? No, of course not. Adam lived many years after the fall, but he was spiritually dead and was alienated from God, cast out of paradise. How then would he or any of his descendants be able to return to God in paradise? The spiritually dead is a slave to sin and has no desire to return to God to begin with. For the sake of argument, let's say he goes against his nature and seeks fellowship with God. How does he return? On his own merit? Never, not even close. By saying 'sorry' and 'please'? Closer, but no that doesn't cleanse or cover up the stain brought on by Adam. Accepting the gift of Christ's sacrifice? Yes almost there, but how does the spiritually dead receive such a great spiritual gift? One must be made spiritually alive again by the grace and mercy of God. The veil must be lifted and the heart must be softened by the love of God, first. Not by ANY single thing a man has, can or will ever do. Period. Only then can he understand the need and graciously accept the gift.

But you are ignoring Genesis 4:7. God tells Cain that he has the choice to do either good or evil. So Cain was not somebody who needed to be regenerated in order to choose between good and evil.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Gotta run. Be back later sometime hopefully.

May God bless you all.


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Men are without excuse. They are in Hell because of the sins they committed - plain and simple.

They are not in Hell simply because they did not respond properly to the gospel when preached to them.

They are there because of their sins. They are without excuse.

Rev 20:15 proves otherwise.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." Revelation 20:12-13

Why should one assume these books of deeds refers to sins? Jesus made a remarkable statement about it being "more tolerable" for the people of Sodom and Gomorrha than for certain cities during Jesus' time. How does that work?

The point of Jesus is that there are levels of torment. It's based on the books of deeds. I view them as whatever moral good they did. Not how much evil they did. However, I don't think it matters either way. The reason people are cast into the lake of fire is solely because their names were not written in the book of life. iow, they didn't have eternal life.

I suppose you believe that an Eskimo who lived on the North Slope of Russia in the year 950 is in Hell for not accepting the free gift of eternal life when it was preached to him.

If he didn't receive the gift, he will be cast into the lake of fire. That is exactly what Rev 20:15 says.

 

[sdowney717]

But you are ignoring Genesis 4:7. God tells Cain that he has the choice to do either good or evil. So Cain was not somebody who needed to be regenerated in order to choose between good and evil.


...

Cain just proves unregenerate hearts can not rule over or master sin, For Christ alone did crush the serpent's head.
The second man, the Lord from Heaven, Christ, does defeat Satan and sin and overcomes all things.
Cain could not overcome temptation being a natural man. And God was also not pleased with Cain's offering.

Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Adam was told that if he ate the fruit that God had forbidden he would die. He disobeyed by eating the fruit, but didn't physically die right away. Was God lying? No, of course not. Adam lived many years after the fall, but he was spiritually dead and was alienated from God, cast out of paradise. How then would he or any of his descendants be able to return to God in paradise? The spiritually dead is a slave to sin and has no desire to return to God to begin with. For the sake of argument, let's say he goes against his nature and seeks fellowship with God. How does he return? On his own merit? Never, not even close. By saying 'sorry' and 'please'? Closer, but no that doesn't cleanse or cover up the stain brought on by Adam. Accepting the gift of Christ's sacrifice? Yes almost there, but how does the spiritually dead receive such a great spiritual gift? One must be made spiritually alive again by the grace and mercy of God. The veil must be lifted and the heart must be softened by the love of God, first. Not by ANY single thing a man has, can or will ever do. Period. Only then can he understand the need and graciously accept the gift.

I have quite a few problems with what you have written here.

First, I fully believe that Adam, having communed perfectly with God was indeed very sorry and wish that he could turn back the clock on his terrible decision of eating that apple. How could one not want to return to a loving Father and the love of the Son after experiencing that perfection? I find that very odd that you would think that Adam would not want to return to God and would have been happy with his new found ability and being kicked out of the Garden of Eden where all was perfect.

Second, we are sinners and usually want to make ourselves happy with sin, but I do not think that those who have considered God would not want to believe or know that there is God. I think that there are many who wish they knew for sure if there was a God. The truth is that many do wish they had faith and belief. So, 'no desire' is an overstatement IMHO. I think in many cases there is desire there.

Third, the heart is not softened by the love of God and the veil lifted by God. The Word says that one comes to faith by hearing. By hearing the Word of God and the gospel. Hence why we PREACH the gospel and all are called to that. That is where faith comes from. So I disagree with that point that is bolded above.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Free will is merely part of one accepting or receiving Salvation, just as oxygen is a part of breathing.


....

That is not true. We could not breath without oxygen and without breathing we would all be dead.

Accepting salvation is a choice and an act of faith.

Breathing is something we MUST do, it is not a choice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Cain just proves unregenerate hearts can not rule over or master sin, For Christ alone did crush the serpent's head.
The second man, the Lord from Heaven, Christ, does defeat Satan and sin and overcomes all things.
Cain could not overcome temptation being a natural man. And God was also not pleased with Cain's offering.

Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

God says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him" (Genesis 4:7).

Okay, you are acting like the first part of this verse is not possible for Cain. But God tells Cain that if he does well shall he not be accepted? In other words, it does no good to tell someone to do good if they are not capable of it.


....

 

[nobdysfool]

Doesn't matter if you knew the name or not. Did you learn of Calvinism (even without knowing it's name) from others or from your own personal study on God's Word?

I already told you how I got it. Look at the question you asked, then my reply.

The origin of the word "should" at Eytomology Online points us to the word "shall" which includes a definition of "may."

OK, but that is not how the word was used. God doesn't usua;lly speak in possibilities or ambiguities. His Word is definite, sharp, and pointed. He says what He means, and means what He says.

You can hurl all the accusations you like at me. But I am going to say to you instead..... May the Lord's love shine upon you.

...

Not hurling accusations, just pointing out the avoidance and attempts to refocus the subject.


.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not true. We could not breath without oxygen and without breathing we would all be dead.
Accepting salvation is a choice and an act of faith.

Breathing is something we MUST do, it is not a choice.

Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense. Both are a necessity for life.

Just as every man must accept Christ in order to have eternal life (and not death), a person must also not hold their breath and refuse to take in air or they could die.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already told you how I got it. Look at the question you asked, then my reply.

I need clarification on how you got your beliefs. Are you saying you came to all 5 points of Calvinism without anyone teaching you such a thing?

OK, but that is not how the word was used. God doesn't usua;lly speak in possibilities or ambiguities. His Word is definite, sharp, and pointed. He says what He means, and means what He says.

Yes, the word "should" means what it says. John should lose weight for his honeymoon. Mary should tell her husband that she forgives him so that their marriage can heal. Jack should remove the nuts from his walk way or he is going to attract the new squirrel in town who loves to look in people's houses for food.

Not hurling accusations, just pointing out the avoidance and attempts to refocus the subject.

.

I believe it was a little more than that. But I am not dwelling on it. Peace be unto you.
And may God bless you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Cain just proves unregenerate hearts can not rule over or master sin, For Christ alone did crush the serpent's head.
The second man, the Lord from Heaven, Christ, does defeat Satan and sin and overcomes all things.
Cain could not overcome temptation being a natural man. And God was also not pleased with Cain's offering.

Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

As for Psalm 53: It is in reference to the "heathen" because verse 1 says, "the fool says in his heart there is no God."
The heathen did not generally obey and follow God. It was rare when they did so. For there are a few exceptions thru out time of certain Gentiles who did come to God, though. Rahab, and the Ninevites, etc. are two examples.


....

 

[sdowney717]

God says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him" (Genesis 4:7).

Okay, you are acting like the first part of this verse is not possible for Cain. But God tells Cain that if he does well shall he not be accepted? In other words, it does no good to tell someone to do good if they are not capable of it.


....

Consider that God is just and will not unfairly condemn the wicked, if they do turn and repent and do well.
Consider also people who are sick need a physician, they won't get better without a medical intervention.
But God is fair, He does not prevent Cain from doing good, and offers advice to Cain. Cain though is evil and shows it in what he does.
God shows kindness that is meant to lead people to repentance, yet because they are by nature evil minded or say full of evil imaginations as God testifies of them in Genesis 8, then they just do not respond to God's kindness or rebuke by coming to the light. They must be regenerated first.
Genesis 8
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Consider that God is just and will not unfairly condemn the wicked, if they do turn and repent and do well.
Consider also people who are sick need a physician, they won't get better without a medical intervention.
But God is fair, He does not prevent Cain from doing good, and offers advice to Cain. Cain though is evil and shows it in what he does.
God shows kindness that is meant to lead people to repentance, yet because they are by nature evil minded or say full of evil imaginations as God testifies of them in Genesis 8, then they just do not respond to God's kindness or rebuke by coming to the light. They must be regenerated first.
Genesis 8
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Genesis 8 is not saying that man is depraved to the point of not accepting God. It merely is saying that man has a sinful nature even in his younger years.

Also, nowhere does God tell Cain that he needs some kind of regeneration in order for him to do good. In Genesis 4:7 God is talking in the past tense of how Cain could have done good wherein he would have been accepted. God does not redirect Cain to be regenerated. Nor does God overtake Cain and force a regeneration upon him, either.


...

 

[nobdysfool]

I need clarification on how you got your beliefs. Are you saying you came to all 5 points of Calvinism without anyone teaching you such a thing?

No you don't need clarification. I was not taught by any man any of the 5 points. And I haven't even mentioned that I differ with some minor parts of them. All based on my own study and consideration of the Word, relying on God's Spirit to open the Word to me for understanding. You want to pigeonhole me for the purpose of trying to marginalize anything I say. You want to play the "guilt by association" card, and I am not going to let you. As for what I have minor disagreement with, that's none of your business.

Yes, the word "should" means what it says. John should lose weight for his honeymoon. Mary should tell her husband that she forgives him so that their marriage can heal. Jack should remove the nuts from his walk way or he is going to attract the new squirrel in town who loves to look in people's houses for food.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Are you saying that Jesus is saying that it ought to happen, but it might not? If so, you are not understanding Him at all. In this passage, the obvious meaning is that He certainly will not lose any but certainly will raise them up at the last day. Why? Because that's God's Will, as Jesus Himself says. In this passage, the word "should" speaks of certainty, not possibility.

Game, set, match.

I believe it was a little more than that. But I am not dwelling on it. Peace be unto you.
And may God bless you....

I believe it was you who made it about you. I didn't.

 

[Received]

Predestined or not, Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[FreeGrace2]

No you don't need clarification. I was not taught by any man any of the 5 points.

If not by man, then by whom? For the 5 points are not taught in the Bible. Otherwise, I'd believe them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No you don't need clarification. I was not taught by any man any of the 5 points. And I haven't even mentioned that I differ with some minor parts of them.

Well, people can have false visions of Jesus, people can have false interpretations of the Bible, and people can even be guided by a spirit in who they think is God into a certain belief that is not Biblical. We have to remember that there are deceptive spirits out there besides just humans, too. These are fallen angels. So how do we keep ourselves free from error in reading the Bible? There are several ways to check to see if a person's interpretation is of God.

#1. Continual Prayer for the understanding.
#2. Context. Does your view on a verse fit the chapter, book, and over-all picture of the Bible?
#3. Cross references (Comparing Scripture with Scripture objectively)
#4. Can a real world example be made out of such a belief?
#5. Does such a belief support God's goodness, morality, or justice? Can you explain God's goodness?
#6. How does such a belief effect your life? Has such a belief led you into a deeper righteousness? Do people see you as loving?
#7. Does the original Hebrew and Greek meaning also line up with the English?
#8. Did you examine the fruits of the churches that hold your belief?
#9. Have you ever read testimonies of those who used to believe in such a belief but are now strongly against it?

All based on my own study and consideration of the Word, relying on God's Spirit to open the Word to me for understanding. You want to pigeonhole me for the purpose of trying to marginalize anything I say. You want to play the "guilt by association" card, and I am not going to let you. As for what I have minor disagreement with, that's none of your business.

I believe at some point you confirmed what you wanted to hear and see in your study by what others said. Most people who just pick up a Bible and read it do not generally come to believe in Calvinism on their own. Especially if they are praying and seeking the true meaning with the help of the Spirit. In other words, people do not learn of Calvinism generally unless a Calvinist tells them about it.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Are you saying that Jesus is saying that it should happen, but it might not? If so, you are not understanding Him at all. In this passage, the obvious meaning is that He certainly will not lose any but certainly will raise them up at the last day. Why? Because that's God's Will, as Jesus Himself says. In this passage, the word "should" speaks of certainty, not possibility.

But the word "should" does not suggest a certainty, though. It suggests a possibility. I already provided examples of how that word is used to suggest a possiblity. So you cannot dismiss it out of hand when that word can actually mean that. I say this because if Jesus did force people against their will to believe or not to believe then there would be no point of having a creation whereby man would live by faith. Also, both the Old and the New Covenant is chocked full of Commands from God to man. These Commands would be useless information if God were to just force us to all believe a certain way automatically.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, happy holidays everyone.
And may God bless you all.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense. Both are a necessity for life.

Just as every man must accept Christ in order to have eternal life (and not death), a person must also not hold their breath and refuse to take in air or they could die.


....

But that is not what you said.

I think though that I see where you meant to go with it, so I'm cool with that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Predestined or not, Merry Christmas to everyone!

Merry Christmas to you brother!

And to all here on this thread!