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Philosophical arguments against the existence of God

Ana the Ist

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Note*

I am under no obligation to provide a theodicy in order to rebut the argument of the logical incompatibility of the existence of God and the existence of this world.

If someone wants to start a separate thread on what morally sufficient reasons God might have for creating this world, then I will offer some responses there.

Wow...I somehow missed this. No, you don't have to provide a theodicy in order to rebut a logical argument against a perfect creator god. You will, however, have to either show the flaw in the logical argument (simply saying "I don't understand" doesn't show a flaw in the argument...it shows a flaw in your understanding)...or you will have to create your own logical arguments which explain (in this case) the existence of flaws in god's creation while allowing for a perfect god.
 
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anonymous person

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But it's your red herring! You brought up "morally sufficient reasons."
I sure did.

A theodicy is distinct from a defense. In order to rebut an argument which aims to show that there is no logically possible way for God to coexist with the bible, or malaria, or any other thing someone may wish to claim is a "flaw", all I have to do is highlight the fact that in order for one's argument to go through, they would have to show that God could not possibly ha e a reason for allowing such things to exist.

Period. This is me asking the person presenting the argument to shoulder the burden, and do what they must do. It is not up to me to present a theodicy explaining how God's plan entails this or that perceived flaw or demonstrating that in fact certain reasons are God's reasons.

But I have been charitable and presented a couple possibilities, which, as long as they are logically possible, show that the argument does not go through.
 
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anonymous person

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Wow...I somehow missed this. No, you don't have to provide a theodicy in order to rebut a logical argument against a perfect creator god. You will, however, have to either show the flaw in the logical argument (simply saying "I don't understand" doesn't show a flaw in the argument...it shows a flaw in your understanding)...or you will have to create your own logical arguments which explain (in this case) the existence of flaws in god's creation while allowing for a perfect god.
The flaw in your argument once again, is that it attempts to prove too much.

You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God would have for allowing for example, what you claim to be an "unclear" text or "malaria" or other "flaws" to exist in a world He actualizes.

What the flaw is is really irrelevant. Heck, just lump them all together and call it "flaw world".

You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God could have for allowing "flaw world" to exist.

The closest thing I have seen from you in the way of an argument is the claim that God is perfect and being perfect necessarily means that a perfect being could have no possible reason for creating "flaw world".

God, therefore in your mind, is a being who can't create a world with "flaws". So it is clear that this whole endeavor is just question begging. You start out by assuming what you are trying to prove.

That is the problem with your argument. It is question begging.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I sure did.

A theodicy is distinct from a defense. In order to rebut an argument which aims to show that there is no logically possible way for God to coexist with the bible, or malaria, or any other thing someone may wish to claim is a "flaw", all I have to do is highlight the fact that in order for one's argument to go through, they would have to show that God could not possibly ha e a reason for allowing such things to exist.

Period. This is me asking the person presenting the argument to shoulder the burden, and do what they must do. It is not up to me to present a theodicy explaining how God's plan entails this or that perceived flaw or demonstrating that in fact certain reasons are God's reasons.

But I have been charitable and presented a couple possibilities, which, as long as they are logically possible, show that the argument does not go through.
This entire thread is shifting the burden. Your rebuttal so far amounts to nothing more than "God works in mysterious ways." That's a platitude, not a rebuttal.
 
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anonymous person

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You bring up "morally sufficient reasons", but are not willing to explain them?

Sort of tells us something, don't ya think?

Red herring. Ref. my post where I said I would address this in a separate thread.
 
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HitchSlap

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I do believe God is perfect. That does not mean I believe God can't possibly have morally sufficient reasons for creating a world wherein malaria exists, for example.
Which is why secular morality is better than the morality of the god described by men in the bible.
 
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HitchSlap

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You bring up "morally sufficient reasons", but are not willing to explain them?

Sort of tells us something, don't ya think?
I haven't been keeping up, has he explained what WLC means when he uses the term "morally sufficient?"
 
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Ana the Ist

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But I have been charitable and presented a couple possibilities, which, as long as they are logically possible, show that the argument does not go through.

You haven't shown any "possibilities" to be logically possible. All you've put forth is an empty claim.

One could easily counter-claim that your "possibilities" aren't logically possible.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The flaw in your argument once again, is that it attempts to prove too much.

You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God would have for allowing for example, what you claim to be an "unclear" text or "malaria" or other "flaws" to exist in a world He actualizes.

What the flaw is is really irrelevant. Heck, just lump them all together and call it "flaw world".

You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God could have for allowing "flaw world" to exist.

The closest thing I have seen from you in the way of an argument is the claim that God is perfect and being perfect necessarily means that a perfect being could have no possible reason for creating "flaw world".

God, therefore in your mind, is a being who can't create a world with "flaws". So it is clear that this whole endeavor is just question begging. You start out by assuming what you are trying to prove.

That is the problem with your argument. It is question begging.

Lol you start off saying that the problem of my argument is that it "tries to prove too much". I've never heard that before, but it certainly doesn't...you haven't shown us otherwise either.

Then, you end your post saying that my argument's problem is that it "begs the question"...it certainly doesn't. You haven't shown what question it "begs" nor how it begs that question either. This claim, like the previous one, can be dismissed since you haven't logically shown either of them.

Let's look at some of your claims here anyways...

You said, "You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God would have for allowing..."

No I wouldn't. God could have a hundred "good reasons" for creating a flaw...it would still be a flaw. A perfect creator cannot logically create flaws...if he did, he wouldn't be perfect.

You said this, "What the flaw is is really irrelevant. "

It's relevant to the point that it must actually be a flaw in his creation...like inefficiency. The flaws cannot be something that I just personally dislike, for example, but rather must be genuine imperfections in god's creation.

You said this, "You would have to show that there are no possible reasons God could have for allowing "flaw world" to exist."

No...I wouldn't. I simply have to show that they are flaws. A perfect creator god cannot create flaws. In the case of his message to mankind...I demonstrated it's inefficiency.

You said this, "The closest thing I have seen from you in the way of an argument is the claim that God is perfect and being perfect necessarily means that a perfect being could have no possible reason for creating "flaw world"."

I'm pretty sure I didn't make this claim...but I could be wrong. Link me to the post where I said this or something similar.

You said this, "God, therefore in your mind, is a being who can't create a world with "flaws". So it is clear that this whole endeavor is just question begging. You start out by assuming what you are trying to prove."

Your first sentence is correct...except that this is logically true, not just true "in my mind". In fact, it's so painfully obviously true...I didn't realize that I had to explain it to you. However, when you asked me to prove this true...I did. I'll give you an analogy though, since now it appears that you struggled with my two-step logical proof....

...imagine that we have a machine which makes toasters. Every 10th toaster it makes is horribly broken (flawed). Is this machine "perfect" at making toasters? Or is this machine flawed at making toasters?

Now, since you seem to be under the mistaken impression that "good reasons" for a flaw will change this argument....I'll modify the example above to include a "good reason" for those flawed toasters.

...imagine our toaster-making machine has been sabotaged by one of the factory workers. Is that a "good reasons" for why this machine makes flawed toasters? You betcha...it easily explains the flawed toasters. Does this change the fact that toasters are flawed? Of course not... Is our sabotaged toaster making machine perfect at making toasters? Or is it still flawed at making toasters?

It's still flawed...not perfect. Can a logically perfect creator god make flawed creations? Nope...because he would then be imperfect at creating. If he has really good reasons for making his flaws....are they still flaws? Yup, always will be.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This entire thread is shifting the burden. Your rebuttal so far amounts to nothing more than "God works in mysterious ways." That's a platitude, not a rebuttal.

Shifting the burden...and shifting the focus of the discussion.

You may have noticed that I haven't even proposed the flaw in god's creation that malaria exhibits. In spite of this, AP has decided that there are "sufficient moral reasons which explain the flaw (whatever that flaw is...I haven't explained it yet lol)

That's a full topic shift...away from the flaw of inefficiency in god's message...to some flaw malaria presents which has yet to be even explained.

So, of course, he cannot explain what those morally sufficient reasons are....he doesn't even know what they're supposed to explain yet. That's why he needs someone else to come and make a thread explaining the flaw created by malaria. He's put the cart before the horse.
 
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zippy2006

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I think I've addressed (2) here.

Why suppose God's approach is suboptimal?

Knowing the best way in which to reach any individual recipient, we would expect him to be able to form a relationship with anyone, whatever their initial disposition. If they were created with a disposition that forever precludes them from forming a relationship with their creator, then who else is to blame for this other than their creator?

This all relates to the central idea that, "If not everyone is Christian, then God has not done his part." The person possessing free will is to blame. (They were not created with a disposition that forever precludes them from forming a relationship with their creator.)

God can't force someone to have a relationship with him any more than you can force a woman to love or marry you. Relationships are bidirectional by nature.

In relation to (3), I'm not sure whether Ana is committed to saying that scripture is the sole means of communication. It is simply the case in point at the moment.

If there is another means then her conclusion does not follow. If God is successfully communicating with individuals in non-Scriptural ways then ineffective Scriptural communication is not a showstopper.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Why suppose God's approach is suboptimal?



This all relates to the central idea that, "If not everyone is Christian, then God has not done his part." The person possessing free will is to blame. (They were not created with a disposition that forever precludes them from forming a relationship with their creator.)

God can't force someone to have a relationship with him any more than you can force a woman to love or marry you. Relationships are bidirectional by nature.



If there is another means then her conclusion does not follow. If God is successfully communicating with individuals in non-Scriptural ways then ineffective Scriptural communication is not a showstopper.

The answer to your first question lies in the existence of multiple interpretations of the bible and multiple denominations of christianity. Optimal would be a situation where only one of each of these exists.

How do you come to the conclusion that the "person possessing free will is to blame"? After all...they are the intended audience of god's message...are they not?
Either lack of clarity exists in the bible...or it doesn't. What would you expect to see if it does? What would you expect to see if it doesn't?


It seems that you've missed the point behind what I'm saying....

You suggested that god might be successfully communicating with people in other ways than the bible. This only strengthens my case that the bible contains flaws.

Suppose god can speak directly to someone...and there is no lack of clarity at all. It would be far more effective/efficient then if god delivered his message to mankind in this way instead of a 2000 year old book.
 
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anonymous person

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The answer to your first question lies in the existence of multiple interpretations of the bible and multiple denominations of christianity. Optimal would be a situation where only one of each of these exists.

How do you come to the conclusion that the "person possessing free will is to blame"? After all...they are the intended audience of god's message...are they not?
Either lack of clarity exists in the bible...or it doesn't. What would you expect to see if it does? What would you expect to see if it doesn't?


It seems that you've missed the point behind what I'm saying....

You suggested that god might be successfully communicating with people in other ways than the bible. This only strengthens my case that the bible contains flaws.

Suppose god can speak directly to someone...and there is no lack of clarity at all. It would be far more effective/efficient then if god delivered his message to mankind in this way instead of a 2000 year old book.
Zippy and I view humans differently than you do.

We view humans as people who can love. As people who can reject love. As people who can love God and reject Him.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Zippy and I view humans differently than you do.

We view humans as people who can love. As people who can reject love. As people who can love God and reject Him.

I see humans the same way.
 
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