Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Short Timer]

John did not disagree with God, but if you do not understand that he did not mean a millennium, then you disagree with both John and God. With God a thousand years...is NOT a millennium. 2 Peter 3:8

Definition of millennium

• : a period of 1,000 years
  

 

[ScottA]

Can you prove such a statement by scripture?

I gave it to you, it's 2 Peter 3:8

What if God PLANNED to have a thousand year (earth years) reign: how would He write it?

By Peter's explanation, I should think He would have written it as "a day."

 

[Short Timer]

The angel never said that he came from the Earth ....or that he was a human before...
The angel said:

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Angels are not "Brothers" to "Sons of Son" i.e. "Prophets".

 

[iamlamad]

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth. Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.

(Acts 1:1-12) " The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put a Sabbath day's journey." in his own power." But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem

Why is Jesus so determined to return to the earth? (Psalm 132:13-18) “For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. His enemies’ will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish."

Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

Jesus is the God and creator of Heaven and Earth. He will rule on this earth at the time appointed. All of that, which he created on the earth in the beginning, including man, will be here when he returns.

Remember, the Lord will do nothing except he reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets. The prophets didn't speak of Rapture, and there won't be one.

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth. Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.

Readers beware: This is NOT A TRUE STATEMENT.

1 Peter 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

And of course John 14.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said in post #4782

Well, that is the way YOU read these verses. Please allow me to give you some advice: when a theory does not fit ALL scripture, instead of relegating those that a theory won't fit to symbolism or non-literal writing, it would be a great time to alter the theory instead of changing the meaning of scripture. ASk yourself: does a verse make good sense in a literal sense (such as the scriptures about the “trumpet”)? If so, LEAVE IT ALONE! It was meant to be taken literally.

Note: I changed Lamad’s words “1000 years” to "trumpet", to apply to this topic.

Great advice, you should take it yourself . When Paul says “last trump” and John lists 7 trumpets the 7th makes it last. Nice dodge . That’s more proof than you’ve offered. In the post I offered evidence what I contend is true, by comparing scripture with scripture. Trying to refute that by simply reversing the question is no answer, a dodge and a diversion from the true point. If you can’t use scripture to separate the 2 passages then it’s obvious you have no evidence they are not the same event.

.

That is not proof AT ALL! Paul did not say "last in scripture." You add meaning to what Paul wrote.

Paul wrote his text before John wrote his. Indeed, at Paul's pretrib rapture, that "last trump" will be the final trumpet of the church age, for the moment of the rapture the door will close and the church age will be OVER.

Can anyone prove by scripture that the door closing is NOT the closing of the church age?

 

[Short Timer]

Mine says this too, and it also says that we are risen already and that we have been made kings and priests already. It also does not say that everyone who is resurrected after the 'millennial reign' is cast into hell, just that everyone whose name was not found in the book of life is cast into hell. Jesus himself states that he is coming, his reward with him, to give to every man according to his works.

Jesus judges the Righteous who return with him for "Rewards" at the second coming, but the "rest of the dead" (unsaved) stay dead until the GWT.

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: .... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Short Timer]

We should all find it strange that those who promote the pretrib rapture doctrine, claim that Revelation 20:5 is a bodily resurrection of the dead.

This poster has attempted to "fix" his problem by adding that this is the "(Second coming)".

If it is the first bodily resurrection, as they thunder and heap condemnation on others for doubting, then there cannot be a pretrib resurrection/rapture that comes 7 years before it, because then it could not be "the first resurrection".

Somehow, some of us are able to rationalize this tremendous conflict in scripture...
.

That's because you don't know the difference between a Rapture and a Resurrection,
In a Rapture, people leave the earth
In a Resurrection, they return to earth,

and it doesn't matter where they come from, deathbed, grave, heaven or hell.

All deceased, OT/Rapture Saints under the altar all return from Heaven with Jesus, unsaved dead stay dead,

so nobody is Resurrected from a grave in the First resurrection.

 

[ivebeenshown]

it also says that we are risen already


What do you mean by this? I certainly don't have my immortal body yet!

The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 does not depict them receiving immortal bodies, but Paul did say we are risen with Christ and John did say Christ has made us priests and kings.

 

[keras]

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth. Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.

Readers beware: This is NOT A TRUE STATEMENT.

1 Peter 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
And of course John 14.[/QUOTE Iamlamad]

It is you, Lamad who makes untrue statements!
1 Peter 1:4 refers to our rewards, kept in heaven that Jesus will bring with Him at His Return.
Hebrews 11:16 and John 14 both refer to the New Jerusalem that we see will come down to earth at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-2

The fact is; you can't give even one scripture saying God will take people to heaven to live, even for a short time. You have been proved wrong in your assertions time and again, but you continue to push the false theory of a pre-trib rapture. Why do that? Wouldn't it be sensible to just wait and see what will happen?

 

[Short Timer]

When Paul says “last trump” and John lists 7 trumpets the 7th makes it last. Nice dodge . That’s more proof than you’ve offered. In the post I offered evidence what I contend is true, by comparing scripture with scripture. Trying to refute that by simply reversing the question is no answer, a dodge and a diversion from the true point. If you can’t use scripture to separate the 2 passages then it’s obvious you have no evidence they are not the same event.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (Voice) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,

Only the "Voice of Jesus" can call people from the grave, which is why Jesus himself must come, and receive us to himself, we meet Jesus in the air, not angels.

archangel= Chief Angel.

Ge 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream,
Ge 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, (House of God)

Ge 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Ge 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:

In the rapture, graves open, at the second coming no graves open, all departed Righteous souls are in heaven and return with Jesus, unsaved stay dead.

At the second coming all the angels reap are "living people", not dead people, the tares are cast into hell and the "Wheat" still alive go on to enter the MK and repopulated the earth.

The "Last trump" of Jesus's voice is when the "HE" (HG, the voice of Jesus) is "Taken out of the way" at the "Fulness of the Gentiles" and then that wicked is revealed.

 

[Riberra]

Of course the soul and spirit of the believers goes to Heaven The point being that John never saw a - HUMAN - resurrected body from the grave in Heaven

He saw only one: Jesus Christ.

That's right ,
John 3:13
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.


Jesus was God in the flesh....not an ordinary human like you and me.

John 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[keras]

All deceased, OT/Rapture Saints under the altar all return from Heaven with Jesus, unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is Resurrected from a grave in the First resurrection.

And you ST, fail to read what your Bible actually says, in your haste to support the false pre-trib rapture.
Revelation 20:4....I saw the souls of the martyr's.....they were resurrected and reigned with Jesus.....
Jesus brings the souls, kept under the Altar, of all those killed for their faith at His Return. Their bodies are resurrected from the grave and reunited with their souls.

 

[Short Timer]

iamlamad said: ↑
What if God PLANNED to have a thousand year (earth years) reign: how would He write it?

By Peter's explanation, I should think He would have written it as "a day."

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

A day with God is a thousand years, nobody has lived a thousand years since sin enter the world,

"All" have "died in the day" they sinned.

But for the saved, they will come back and live a thousand years (7th day) with Jesus and "Not die",

proving he removed "All" of their sins.

 

[Riberra]

Angels are not "Brothers" to "Sons of Son" i.e. "Prophets".

The ANGEL was sent by God to reveal a prophecy to John.

That ANGEL ,John and the OT Prophets are -brethren- because of their commun mission of sharing God's pophecies ....not by their lineage.

 

[Short Timer]

And you ST, fail to read what your Bible actually says, in your haste to support the false pre-trib rapture.
Revelation 20:4....I saw the souls of the martyr's.....they were resurrected and reigned with Jesus.....
Jesus brings the souls, kept under the Altar, of all those killed for their faith at His Return. Their bodies are resurrected from the grave and reunited with their souls.

My Bible says their souls are in heaven under the altar, and "White robes" (glorified bodies) are given to them and Jesus returns to the earth "From Heaven"..."WITH" all his saints.

How can they come with Jesus if they still here on earth in a grave????

 

[iamlamad]

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth. Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.

Readers beware: This is NOT A TRUE STATEMENT.

1 Peter 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
And of course John 14.[/QUOTE Iamlamad]

It is you, Lamad who makes untrue statements!
1 Peter 1:4 refers to our rewards, kept in heaven that Jesus will bring with Him at His Return.
Hebrews 11:16 and John 14 both refer to the New Jerusalem that we see will come down to earth at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-2

The fact is; you can't give even one scripture saying God will take people to heaven to live, even for a short time. You have been proved wrong in your assertions time and again, but you continue to push the false theory of a pre-trib rapture. Why do that? Wouldn't it be sensible to just wait and see what will happen?

Can you prove with scripture any of these statements? God called His city a HEAVENLY city. Indeed, when we go there it will be a heavenly city.
Believers have an inheritance in heaven and it is RESERVED IN HEAVEN for them. This does not say it will be transported down to them. You have to ad lib that part.

Then again, you can never prove by scripture that John 14 is not about God taking us to heaven - because that is exactly what it says.

Then again, you will MISS the marriage and supper in heaven. The Bride won't because she will already be there.

 

[Short Timer]

The ANGEL was sent By God to reveal a prophecy to John.
They are -bethrens- because of their commun mission of sharing God's pophecies ....not by their lineage.

They're brothers because they are both "Sons of God" and being "Prophets", makes them brothers or Sons of God.

which angels can never be, or even hinted at being.

 

[Riberra]

My Bible says their souls are in heaven under the altar, and "White robes" (glorified bodies) are given to them and Jesus returns to the earth "From Heaven"..."WITH" all his saints.

White robes represent the righteousness of saints....that is not the glorified bodies that they will receive at the resurrection of the Saints from their graves unto the Coming of Jesus after the Tribulation.
Revelation 19:8
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

How can they come with Jesus if they still here on earth in a grave????

The Soul/Spirit of the believers in Jesus goes to Heaven when we die .That is that "part" that Jesus will bring with Him to be reunited with the body left in the grave at His return after the Tribulation. At this moment the dead in Christ will rise incorruptible in their glorified body...to be caught up and gathered together with those in Christ still alive and changed into their glorified body to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air...

 

[Short Timer]

Can you prove with scripture any of these statements? God called His city a HEAVENLY city. Indeed, when we go there it will be a heavenly city.
Believers have an inheritance in heaven and it is RESERVED IN HEAVEN for them. This does not say it will be transported down to them. You have to ad lib that part.

Then again, you can never prove by scripture that John 14 is not about God taking us to heaven - because that is exactly what it says.

Then again, you will MISS the marriage and supper in heaven. The Bride won't because she will already be there.

Hay IamIamad,

I'm going to build a hunting cabin on my "Father's property" and when it's build "I will come again" and pick you "UP", so don't look for anyone else, just me.

Oh, the horn on my truck is broke, but that's OK I can shout so loud you'd think it was a "Trumpet" waking the dead.


I've always thought it kinda strange how you can say something in normal everyday language and nobody has any problem understanding what you said or meant,

but put the same thing in scripture and people can twist it up until there's not a grain of truth left in it.

Sure bring home what God said about the scriptures only revealed to those who had "ears to hear".

 

[Riberra]

They're brothers because they are both "Sons of God" and being "Prophets", makes them brothers or Sons of God.

which angels can never be, or even hinted at being.

That is the point .That ANGEL sent by God have the mission to show the prophecy to John...that's all.