Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

Revelation 15:2 clearly indicate that they -had gotten the victory over the BEAST/Antichrist because they refused to worship the AC and refused the mark .. .We know that this mean being beheaded.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


The martyred saints in Revelation 6:9-11 are the EARLY church martyrs (the Apostles and the Christians martyred by the Romans) ...but they are not those that will be slain /ie beheaded by the Antichrist mentioned in Revelation 15:2.

Wow! Finally you have written something I can agree with! Indeed, almost agree with. Those under the altar at that time were indeed the martyrs of the early church, but as time went on continued to grow. They have to wait for the final martyr of the church age. A martyr during the 70th week would NOT be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. So that group is STILL growing today.

 

[iamlamad]

Paul also says that each is raised up "in his own order", rather than in some future group event.

Nonetheless, Paul does not say "what we would rather" as you have said in error...but speaks the gospel of Christ, clearly stating that to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

Furthermore, the "Millennium" doctrine is not what the scriptures say either, but is the teachings of men...for we know that a thousand years with the Lord, is not a millennium.

Call it what you will - John wrote a thousand years, and I will not disagree with him.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 11:18 “the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets”

1 Corin 15:52 “the dead shall be raised incorruptible”
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rev 20
4... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

IN CONTEXT Paul's resurrection will be for those IN CHRIST.

 

[iamlamad]

From the text can anyone prove the seventh trumpet is not the last of a series, the last in scripture, the last of this age, the last before Jesus returns, or the “last trump” Paul referred to?

Using scripture, can anyone prove they ARE the same?

 

[iamlamad]

From the text can anyone prove Jesus is not on this earth when “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord” and “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”?

CAn anyone prove using scripture that He IS on the earth - when Revelation shows His coming LATER?

 

[iamlamad]

From Lamads post :

“Daughter, write it down. Soon the day will come and it is coming fast when I touch down and pick up My bride to deliver her home safely. “



I don't remember you ever saying Christ touches down at a pre-trib rapture?


I also find it interesting that pre-trib is so graphically described in these writings yet we do not have that luxury in the Holy Scriptures.


Just my observations.

Good point. the scriptures do not indicate any "touchdown." No football in the bible.

I have always said that God is pretrib.

 

[BABerean2]

From the text can anyone prove Jesus is not on this earth when “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord” and “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”?

CAn anyone prove using scripture that He IS on the earth - when Revelation shows His coming LATER?[/QUOTE]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Yes.
.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yet Revelation 20 makes it VERY clear there will be 2 resurrections; one for the just and one for the sinner. Why then do you choose to believe one and IGNORE the other? Of course one man will be fit BOTH resurrections, so Paul would chose a singular word.

Berean Literal Bible
having a hope in God, which they themselves also await, that there is about to be a resurrection, both of the just and of the unjust.

CAN this verse agree with what John wrote? Of course it can.

A wise man, when there is a choice of a very clear scripture on a subject, will form theory from the CLEAREST and most thorough verses, and then fill in missing pieces on lesser scriptures. Revelation is the most thorough scripture on end times. Why then do you choose to form a theory from a ONE SENTENCE passage where there are much more thorough passages?

I can also interpret Revelation 20 in a harmonious manner by pinning the "first resurrection" as what Paul said in his other letter: that in baptism we "are risen", and what Scripture says elsewhere, in Revelation if I recall correctly, that "he has made us kings and priests." For if we are indeed risen as Paul stated, and if we have indeed been made kings, then we have indeed been risen and do reign with Christ.

You see, it all comes down to HOW you read the bible. I got A's in English and I see no problem with seeing both of these scriptures saying the same thing: A resurrection for the just and A resurrection for the sinner.

I did well in English, as well as Latin, Spanish, German, and Japanese -- my point being that I have always been fascinated with languages and grammars. But this is not English primarily, it is Greek.

The Greek indicates a singular resurrection event which is for the just and the unjust both, not that 'each' of the just and the unjust will have their own resurrection events.

As Jesus said in his parable, "both good and bad" were gathered, and he who was not with the appropriate garment for the wedding was cast out.

 

[Postvieww]

From the text can anyone prove the seventh trumpet is not the last of a series, the last in scripture, the last of this age, the last before Jesus returns, or the “last trump” Paul referred to?

Using scripture, can anyone prove they ARE the same?

Lamad said in post #4782

Well, that is the way YOU read these verses. Please allow me to give you some advice: when a theory does not fit ALL scripture, instead of relegating those that a theory won't fit to symbolism or non-literal writing, it would be a great time to alter the theory instead of changing the meaning of scripture. ASk yourself: does a verse make good sense in a literal sense (such as the scriptures about the “trumpet”)? If so, LEAVE IT ALONE! It was meant to be taken literally.

Note: I changed Lamad’s words “1000 years” to "trumpet", to apply to this topic.

Great advice, you should take it yourself . When Paul says “last trump” and John lists 7 trumpets the 7th makes it last. Nice dodge . That’s more proof than you’ve offered. In the post I offered evidence what I contend is true, by comparing scripture with scripture. Trying to refute that by simply reversing the question is no answer, a dodge and a diversion from the true point. If you can’t use scripture to separate the 2 passages then it’s obvious you have no evidence they are not the same event.

.

 

[Bro.T]

All over the Book, we see Jesus coming to the earth. Nowhere do we see where he's going to take man to heaven.

(Acts 1:1-12) " The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put a Sabbath day's journey." in his own power." But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?” this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem

Why is Jesus so determined to return to the earth? (Psalm 132:13-18) “For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. His enemies’ will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish."

Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

Jesus is the God and creator of Heaven and Earth. He will rule on this earth at the time appointed. All of that, which he created on the earth in the beginning, including man, will be here when he returns.

Remember, the Lord will do nothing except he reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets. The prophets didn't speak of Rapture, and there won't be one.

 

[Short Timer]

The Greek indicates a singular resurrection event which is for the just and the unjust both, not that 'each' of the just and the unjust will have their own resurrection events.

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Second coming)

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

My Bible says the unsaved and Tares cast into hell at the second coming are not resurrected until the GWT, or after the Mill Reign is over.

 

[ScottA]

Call it what you will - John wrote a thousand years, and I will not disagree with him.

John did not disagree with God, but if you do not understand that he did not mean a millennium, then you disagree with both John and God. With God a thousand years...is NOT a millennium. 2 Peter 3:8

 

[ivebeenshown]

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Second coming)

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

My Bible says the unsaved and Tares cast into hell at the second coming are not resurrected until the GWT, or after the Mill Reign is over.

Mine says this too, and it also says that we are risen already and that we have been made kings and priests already. It also does not say that everyone who is resurrected after the 'millennial reign' is cast into hell, just that everyone whose name was not found in the book of life is cast into hell. Jesus himself states that he is coming, his reward with him, to give to every man according to his works.

 

[BABerean2]

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Second coming)

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

My Bible says the unsaved and Tares cast into hell at the second coming are not resurrected until the GWT, or after the Mill Reign is over.

We should all find it strange that those who promote the pretrib rapture doctrine, claim that Revelation 20:5 is a bodily resurrection of the dead.

This poster has attempted to "fix" his problem by adding that this is the "(Second coming)".

If it is the first bodily resurrection, as they thunder and heap condemnation on others for doubting, then there cannot be a pretrib resurrection/rapture that comes 7 years before it, because then it could not be "the first resurrection".

Somehow, some of us are able to rationalize this tremendous conflict in scripture...
.

 

[Riberra]

Where then did their spirit man go? When the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, did they think they saw a soul? The bible said SPIRIT. What part of a man's WILL (part of the soul) is visible? What part of THOUGHTS are visible? What part of EMOTIONS are visible? I am speaking of visible in the realm of the spirit. Of course NONE of these things are visible. But SPIRITS are visible. That is why those in the boat thought they saw a SPIRIT.

So it will be the SPIRITS with the souls that go to heaven.

Of course the soul and spirit of the believers goes to Heaven The point being that John never saw a - HUMAN - resurrected body from the grave in Heaven.

 

[Riberra]

Did the OT saints that Jesus resurrected, some of which appeared in Jerusalem, go to heaven with Jesus when he ascended wearing their glorified bodies????

There is no mention that they were resurrected in their glorified body rather than in their mortal body like Lazarus.
Nobody have SEEN anyone in their bodies ascending in Heaven with Jesus ....

John started to worship the angel showing him around heaven but the angel told him he was one of John's brethren from the earth.

The angel never said that he came from the Earth ....or that he was a human before...
The angel said:
I am thy fellowservant.....and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Meaning that he was sent by God to show John the things which shall come to pass... worship God not the angel/messenger.

Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

[iamlamad]

Of course the soul and spirit of the believers goes to Heaven The point being that John never saw a - HUMAN - resurrected body from the grave in Heaven.

He saw only one: Jesus Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

We should all find it strange that those who promote the pretrib rapture doctrine, claim that Revelation 20:5 is a bodily resurrection of the dead.

This poster has attempted to "fix" his problem by adding that this is the "(Second coming)".

If it is the first bodily resurrection, as they thunder and heap condemnation on others for doubting, then there cannot be a pretrib resurrection/rapture that comes 7 years before it, because then it could not be "the first resurrection".

Somehow, some of us are able to rationalize this tremendous conflict in scripture...
.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM! Why do you act so naive sometimes? We have been over this many times in this thread. "First" is only in the GREEK. Substitute "CHIEF resurrection" which is another very good translation for the Greek word and there is no conflict. This is John's meaning. There are only two, and one for the righteous. OF COURSE the resurrection for the righteous would be the greatest of the two.

 

[iamlamad]

Mine says this too, and it also says that we are risen already and that we have been made kings and priests already. It also does not say that everyone who is resurrected after the 'millennial reign' is cast into hell, just that everyone whose name was not found in the book of life is cast into hell. Jesus himself states that he is coming, his reward with him, to give to every man according to his works.

it also says that we are risen already


What do you mean by this? I certainly don't have my immortal body yet!

 

[iamlamad]

John did not disagree with God, but if you do not understand that he did not mean a millennium, then you disagree with both John and God. With God a thousand years...is NOT a millennium. 2 Peter 3:8

Can you prove such a statement by scripture? What if God PLANNED to have a thousand year (earth years) reign: how would He write it?

OF COURSE John did not disagree with God, for the Author is the Holy Spirit.