Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

If New Covenant salvation was an if then thing, then why is Romans 8:30 written as a completed work of God?

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Scripture does not say it this way as a future work of God.
30 Moreover whom He predestines, these He also calls; whom He calls, these He also justifies; and whom He justifies, these He also glorifies.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi brother,
I'll try to answer your question. But first, I'll ask you a question? Where does the Bible declare that salvation is a completed action when we enter the family of God? Our salvation was a realized objective. A sovereign God has designed the salvation package according to His perfect character.

I'm a sister

The 'salvation package' you speak of does not exist.

Sanctification is the process of us becoming more like Jesus Christ. This is a process that never ends as long as we are alive.

Justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that we receive when we are saved. This justification is Jesus Christ GIVING US HIS righteousness. This is NOT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That meets the demand for holiness by God the Father, Christ's righteousness that is IMPUTED to us by Jesus Christ.

How we know that salvation is a realized objective is because we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, God Himself.

Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a “first installment” to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit’s presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-seal.html

 

[Jesus First]

Of course they are bearing good fruit.
This though is exactly what those who are made good trees do, they bear good fruit.
Matthew 12:33
[ A Tree Known by Its Fruit ] “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a treeis known by its fruit.
So who makes the tree?
Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

For all those who teach that a good tree can bear bad fruit, why do you teach the opposite of Christ??
Good tree bears good fruit Bad tree bears bad fruit.
So salvation can not be lost, else the good tree would be bearing bad fruit.
It is that the bad trees just stay bad unless Christ makes them the good tree, and THEN they only bear good fruit, they never become bad trees. And never will a good tree bear bad fruit. It is so simple really, if you would just yield to the truth of election only grace salvation and not works.

Brother Sdowney717,

My bad. I thought you were in John 10.

We agree that good trees bear fruit. We disagree on some of the elements.

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

I'm a sister

The 'salvation package' you speak of does not exist.

Sanctification is the process of us becoming more like Jesus Christ. This is a process that never ends as long as we are alive.

Justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that we receive when we are saved. This justification is Jesus Christ GIVING US HIS righteousness. This is NOT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That meets the demand for holiness by God the Father, Christ's righteousness that is IMPUTED to us by Jesus Christ.

How we know that salvation is a realized objective is because we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, God Himself.

Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a “first installment” to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit’s presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-seal.html

I'm sorry. You are my sister! Thanks for responding so gracefully.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The ONLY way one can be saved is to believe in Christ. And since we are saved by grace, we are also kept by that very grace.

We didn't earn, nor deserve salvation. And we therefore cannot "earn" or deserve loss of salvation. That's what grace is all about.


This is confusing relationship with fellowship. They are not the same.

Grace (Salvation) is something that Jesus does accomplish. Both in Justification (Initial salvation) and in Sanctification (Continued salvation) by allowing Christ to do the good work in you (When you submit to Him).

Oh, and having a relationship is fellowship.
Having a relationship, or fellowship is salvation. No relationship and no fellowship with Christ means no salvation. For Christ is the source of a person's eternal life or salvation.

Do you actually need verses to prove to you that you need to abide in Christ in order to be saved?


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Grace (Salvation) is something that Jesus does accomplish. Both in Justification (Initial salvation) and in Sanctification (Continued salvation) by allowing Christ to do the good work in you (When you submit to Him).

...

Grace is 'unmerited favor'. Salvation is our being reconciled once again (as it was before the fall of Adam) back to God.

So, it is by God's unmerited favor (grace) to us (because it is not something we CAN EARN, but only be given) that we are given salvation (being reconciled back to God and that we will spend eternity with Him in heaven).

This salvation is given to us when we are justified, given the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the Holy One.

As part of salvation, we are given the Holy Spirit as a seal or guarantee of our future inheritance in Christ. It is our down payment of our inheritance, in Christ, as I have said above.

Sanctification is the good things that God produces in us (fruit of the Spirit) when we love and are obedient to God in love and thankfulness for what He has given us.

So. there is no Salvation, Initial Salvation and Continued Salvation. That does not exist.


What I wrote above is what happens.

 

[Jesus First]

I'm a sister

The 'salvation package' you speak of does not exist.

Sanctification is the process of us becoming more like Jesus Christ. This is a process that never ends as long as we are alive.

Justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that we receive when we are saved. This justification is Jesus Christ GIVING US HIS righteousness. This is NOT OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That meets the demand for holiness by God the Father, Christ's righteousness that is IMPUTED to us by Jesus Christ.

How we know that salvation is a realized objective is because we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, God Himself.

Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: The Holy Spirit is referred to as the “deposit,” “seal,” and “earnest” in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated “earnest” in these passages is arrhabōn which means “a pledge,” that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a “first installment” to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit’s presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-seal.html

Sister ToBeLoved,

Where does the Bible declare that justification is a one-time, completed action event? The Bible must determine our theology if we are to be correct. This means that I can be wrong and the website you provided can be wrong. But how does God define justification in the New Testament?

If you were to perform a search in the New Testament for the words, just, justify, justified, justification, etc., and you pretended to read the Bible for the first time, how would the Bible and the Holy Spirit identify this subject? These are answers between you and God. We will soon stand before God (beginning with me) and God's Word properly understood is never in error.

The priesthood of the believer makes each one of us accountable directly before God. The Bereans were commended because they searched the Scriptures to determine if what they heard was truth.

In Christ and for His glory!

 

[Jesus First]

To us who are being saved is a completed work. Paul is describing the process for those who become saved due to the power of God..

Brother Sdowney,

It doesn't say, were saved (past tense), but "being saved". The word "being" here describes an ongoing state. This is grammar 101 (I say this respectfully). If there are no grammar rules, the Bible can say whatever one wants.

In Christ!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that is the scripture you were quoting, Matthew 13:41-42? So you used this parable to say that someone can walk away from their salvation in CHrist in post #1508, so how do you explain using that scripture then to prove that point? I'm missing something.

How do you judge most people if they have the fruit of the Spirit? Most of us are not around most other people enough to really know. That's why people 'play good' to seem like they have fruit. So are you just buying in to their doing this? Because the Pharisee's seemed to everyone but Jesus to have much fruit.

Not really. Jesus and the apostles were able to know who were false and true by their deeds. There was no such thing as a believer who thought they were saved by trusting in Jesus while they lived an immoral life.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sister ToBeLoved,

Where does the Bible declare that justification is a one-time, completed action event? The Bible must determine our theology if we are to be correct. This means that I can be wrong and the website you provided can be wrong. But how does God define justification in the New Testament?

If you were to perform a search in the New Testament for the words, just, justify, justified, justification, etc., and you pretended to read the Bible for the first time, how would the Bible and the Holy Spirit identify this subject?

Romans 3:21–26
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God jput forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:18–19
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not really. Jesus and the apostles were able to know who were false and true by their deeds.

...

They were together a lot back then because the number of believers was fairly small.

But we do not live in small communities like that anymore. And population is very dense now compared to then. How many people to one square mile now compared to then? So yes, they did know the churches and others who were believers well, but we do not really now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But that is the scripture you were quoting, Matthew 13:41-42? So you used this parable to say that someone can walk away from their salvation in CHrist in post #1508, so how do you explain using that scripture then to prove that point? I'm missing something.

The parable of the Sower ties into it. There are two who understood the Word and received it with joy; however, they fell away due to different reasons (one fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the cares or the riches of this life).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 3:21–26
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God jput forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:18–19
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is obviously not talking about ALL Law whatsoever. This is talking about the Law of Moses because if you were to do a keyword search at Blue Letter Bible, you would see that the words "circumision" or "circumise" appear in the book of Galatians and Romans as a part of the context of talking about the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses).

The Commands or Laws in the New Covenant are binding for a believer today. Christians are not lawless individuals.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They were together a lot back then because the number of believers was fairly small.

But we do not live in small communities like that anymore. And population is very dense now compared to then. How many people to one square mile now compared to then? So yes, they did know the churches and others who were believers well, but we do not really now.

Sorry, that is just not in the Bible. God wants us to live like Jesus did and like His apostles did. God's Word does not change according to the times. His holiness is forever unchanging.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

The parable of the Sower ties into it. There are two who understood the Word and received it with joy; however, they fell away due to different reasons (one fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the cares or the riches of this life).


....

It was not clear what you were saying. That is why I looked up the context of the verse you were using.

So how does the Parable of the Sower tie into it exactly? Please share scripture with it, in context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Of course the Bible teaches clearly that a believer can fall away from the faith. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the Bible teaches that those who have fallen away lose their salvation. That assumption is very common, but is not taught in Scripture.

Instead, the Bible teaches that WHEN one believes in Christ they are placed in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5."

You missed my point completely. This isn't the issue. Obviously the Bible says that people fall away from the faith. The issue is to prove from Scripture that falling away from the faith results in loss of salvation.

That is NOT found anywhere in Scripture.

Really? So a person who was once on fire for God and did many great things for the Lord and had a deep walk with Him for many years and then later commits suicide because of tragedy in his family is saved?

Just as I said, you've missed my point completely. But since you asked, is there any verse in the Bible about a believer who commits suicide and loses salvation? Of course NOT.

In fact, just the opposite: King Saul literally fell on his own sword the day after a meeting with Samuel, who told him that he would join Samuel the next day. And we all know exactly where Samuel resided; Paradise.

Sorry, I just don't see support of people falling away from the faith as being saved.

There is NO support for falling away from the faith losing salvation.

I said this:
"This seems to be a word game. Whether salvation is "lost", or "forfeited" results in the EXACT SAME CONDITION: going to hell. And I don't play word games. Your statement is internally contradicted."
It's not a word game. There is a difference. For one is a choice to rebel against God and the other is a loss that is outside your control.[/QUOTE]
This makes no sense. Losing salvation and forfeiting salvation results in the EXACT SAME THING.

How can losing salvation be "outside your control"?? That makes no sense. How is salvation EVER in our own control. God is the Source of our salvation. He alone gives salvation and His gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

For example: If a man ran thru a forest and a branch ripped his pocket letting loose all the change that was within it (without him realizing it), he would have lost that change. But if that same man took change from out of his pocket and threw it willingly into the forest, he is forfeiting that change of his own free will choice.

Why would anyone try to equate salvation to "loose change"?? Salvation isn't some object that can be lost.

But, tell me how one can lose salvation by running thru your fantasy forest and ripping your pocket. Is that where you keep your salvation; in your pocket??

In other words, salvation is not forced upon you. We still have free will to believe or not to believe after we have accepted Jesus Christ.

This is where you are in great error. There are zero verses about walking away or falling away from our faith resulting in loss of salvation.

God is not a respecter of persons. Just because a person says they believe in Jesus Christ does not really mean anything if they have no real fruit in their life that Christ lives within them (See James 2:17, and 2 Corinthians 13:5).

It's never been about what one SAYS they believe. It's ALWAYS been about what one BELIEVES, not SAYS.

And the Bible disagrees with you. For all who name as if they part of Christ's kingdom who work iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels at the End of the Age and cast into the fire to be destroyed (Matthew 13:41-42).

What does "all who name as if they part of Christ's kingdom" mean?

Here are the verses:
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If this is a blanket statement about who gets in and who doesn't, then all the verses about believing in Christ are wrong. Just look at the context of the whole text, not just those 2 verses. All of it is about the difference between believers and unbelievers.

I said this:
"Again, there is no evidence in any of these verses about the "potential" of losing/forfeiting their salvation."

But what if the Bible actually says that?

Then prove it by quoting any verse that says so. That's how one proves their view.

Would you be willing to change if that was the case?

Until I see a verse that says so, there is no reason to believe it.

For there are many verses in the Bible that tell us a person can be saved for a time and then be unsaved.

OK, you're on. Show me any verse that says that and I'll have to believe it.

 

[sdowney717]

Brother Sdowney717,

My bad. I thought you were in John 10.

We agree that good trees bear fruit. We disagree on some of the elements.

In Christ!

BUT do you agree with Christ that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit?
And a bad tree cannot bear good fruit?
Or do you beleive trees switch from ba

Brother Sdowney,

It doesn't say, were saved (past tense), but "being saved". The word "being" here describes an ongoing state. This is grammar 101 (I say this respectfully). If there are no grammar rules, the Bible can say whatever one wants.

In Christ!

Romans 5:9 “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God”
Clearly justification by HIS blood has occurred as a past event in the life of the believer. Yet we will be saved from wrath also in the future.

To say such a thing implies it is His blood not our deeds that justified us. Clearly only an elect person would retain justification, which is what a born of God person is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry, that is just not in the Bible. God wants us to live like He did and like His apostles did. God's Word does not change.


...

I did not say God's Word has changed. I asked you how you feel that you know someone so well that you can tell if they have significant fruit of the Spirit unless they are your very close family or friends?

That is what I asked, because you said that the apostles could tell and so should we, but I explained that people do not live in small communities so we are around each other all the time. Back then, they did not commute in cars to work and then commute home. Take their kids to school on a school bus. Rent homes instead of own land. Surely you can see this.

So it is a question of how you feel that you know most people well enough to know their fruit of the Spirit, because many people put on their 'church face' or 'religious face' and that might not be genuine or not.

So how do you know?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Grace is 'unmerited favor'. Salvation is our being reconciled once again (as it was before the fall of Adam) back to God.

So, it is by God's unmerited favor (grace) to us (because it is not something we CAN EARN, but only be given) that we are given salvation (being reconciled back to God and that we will spend eternity with Him in heaven).

This salvation is given to us when we are justified, given the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the Holy One.

As part of salvation, we are given the Holy Spirit as a seal or guarantee of our future inheritance in Christ. It is our down payment of our inheritance, in Christ, as I have said above.

Sanctification is the good things that God produces in us (fruit of the Spirit) when we love and are obedient to God in love and thankfulness for what He has given us.

So. there is no Salvation, Initial Salvation and Continued Salvation. That does not exist.


What I wrote above is what happens.

The Scriptures say that Grace is unmerited favor when you first come to Him. However, the Scriptures also say we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, though, too. Why all the trembling if there is no fear by some grace that is unmerited your whole life?


...

 

[sdowney717]

The Scriptures say that Grace is unmerited favor when you first come to Him. However, the Scriptures also say we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, though, too. Why all the trembling if there is no fear by some grace that is unmerited your whole life?


...

That has to do with the fact that God is holy and all powerful and if you read further it says He is at work within you, which is an awesome thing to contemplate, so then have reverent fear and trembling.