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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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BABerean2

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That is EXACTLY what the text says. So why to so many not believe it as written?


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



2Ti 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Because all of the other passages say otherwise...
.
 
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Riberra

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'We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

No waiting :)
If they are absent from the body ....what "part" of the believers in Christ goes to Heaven ?Hint ...their SOULS. Think about it !
 
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ivebeenshown

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Right: one for the just and one for the unjust.

Why don't you just believe John in Rev. 20? Or do you just spiritualize it away?
On the contrary, Paul said "a resurrection (singular) there shall be of both just and unjust." He does not say "of each," but "of both."
 
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iamlamad said in post 4738:

First, only those IN CHRIST put on immortality. Later the Old Testament saints.

Actually, all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are already part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

iamlamad said in post 4738:

After the 1000 years, the sinners get raised.

That's right, if you mean unsaved people.

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). It is only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) that the rest of the dead (of all times) will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4741:

He is coming first FOR His saints. Since you don't believe that, you will not be ready or watching, and WILL be left behind.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4756:

Do you really think Jesus will harvest PEOPLE with a sickle? We used to harvest corn that way! That part of Rev. 14 is SYMBOLIC and prophetic of future events.

That's right, in that Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

-

Before Jesus returns, Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4761:

I have not done it, but my guess is, if we let 11 5th graders read this passage, they would all come to the same conclusion.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
 
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ivebeenshown said in post 4750:

Paul stated in Acts that he believed there shall be one resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:15 And {I} have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Compare the similar:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).
 
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Douggg

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John saw the souls of those beheaded by the Antichrist only in Revelation 15 NOT in Revelation 6:9 at the opening of the 5 Th seal.

Revelation 15King (KJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
It doesn't say beheaded in Revelation 15.. It does indicate that they were martyred.

All of the horses of the apocalypse precede the fifth seal - so those are martyred saints in Revelation 6:9 as well.
 
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BABerean2 said in post 4768:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

BABerean2 said in post 4768:

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).
 
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Riberra

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It doesn't say beheaded in Revelation 15.. It does indicate that they were martyred.
Revelation 15:2 clearly indicate that they -had gotten the victory over the BEAST/Antichrist because they refused to worship the AC and refused the mark .. .We know that this mean being beheaded.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

All of the horses of the apocalypse precede the fifth seal - so those are martyred saints in Revelation 6:9 as well.
The martyred saints in Revelation 6:9-11 are the EARLY church martyrs (the Apostles and the Christians martyred by the Romans) ...but they are not those that will be slain /ie beheaded by the Antichrist mentioned in Revelation 15:2.
 
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ScottA

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What we would 'rather' have happen and what God intends, aren't the same thing.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 goes on to say we must remain acceptable to Him and it is only at the Judgement of Lord, that we receive what is due to us. Thinking the righteous dead go to heaven before the end of the Millennium conflicts with plain scripture.
Paul also says that each is raised up "in his own order", rather than in some future group event.

Nonetheless, Paul does not say "what we would rather" as you have said in error...but speaks the gospel of Christ, clearly stating that to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

Furthermore, the "Millennium" doctrine is not what the scriptures say either, but is the teachings of men...for we know that a thousand years with the Lord, is not a millennium.
 
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1 Corin 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Rev 10:6 “Rev 10:6 “that there should be time no longer”

1 Corin 15:24 “Then cometh the end”


I Corin 15:24 “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”

Rev 11:15 “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ”



1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1 Corin 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery”

Rev 10:7 “the mystery of God should be finished”


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1 Corin 15:52 “at the last trump”

Rev 11:15 “And the seventh angel sounded”


1 Corin 15:52 “the dead shall be raised incorruptible”

Rev 11:18 “the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets”


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,


6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


Rev 10:6 “that there should be time no longer”

1 Corin 15:24 “Then cometh the end”


7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 10:6 “that there should be time no longer”

Rev 10:7 “the mystery of God should be finished”

1 Corin 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery”


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded

1 Corin 15:52 “ at the last trump”


Rev 11:15 “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord”

1 Corin 15:24 “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”


16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 11:18 “the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets”

1 Corin 15:52 “the dead shall be raised incorruptible”



Can anyone use scripture to separate these two passages without using the phrases “nothing requires that” “John’s God given timeline” or “if you had ears to hear” ?


From the text can anyone prove these are not the same event?


From the text can anyone prove the seventh trumpet is not the last of a series, the last in scripture, the last of this age, the last before Jesus returns, or the “last trump” Paul referred to?


From the text can anyone prove Jesus is not on this earth when “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord” and “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”?


Can anyone offer scripture to prove the dead should be judged before Christ returns?


Can anyone with scripture separate, “the resurrection of the dead” “Then cometh the end” and “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God” “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power” from “Christ's at his coming” in the passage 1 Corin 15:20-24?


Can anyone with scripture show “Then cometh the end” “the mystery of God should be finished” “that there should be time no longer” are not statements of finality that refer to the same event?
 
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Ah! You THINK "false prophet" because what was written does not agree with your false theories. I get that. Everything in that post is backed up by scripture, rightly divided. He is coming first FOR His saints. Since you don't believe that, you will not be ready or watching, and WILL be left behind. Have you counted up how many times Jesus told us to WATCH? Just what are you watching for?

Proving what something is NOT does not prove what it IS.
ANYONE can put scriptures together to make them SEEM to say something. If you could find your theories in the New Testament, someone might believe them.

By the way, we do agree on n2thelight.

From Lamads post :


“Daughter, write it down. Soon the day will come and it is coming fast when I touch down and pick up My bride to deliver her home safely. “



I don't remember you ever saying Christ touches down at a pre-trib rapture?


I also find it interesting that pre-trib is so graphically described in these writings yet we do not have that luxury in the Holy Scriptures.


Just my observations.
 
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You are going to be SO SHOCKED when your "impossible" takes place. However, you will only get to see it, not participate.

You forgot the words of Jesus: "With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

I have an idea: why not just believe John 14: that Jesus went to heaven to prepare HOMES in heaven. That is what a normal reading tells us. And that He will come back, get those watching for Him and take them to the places prepared. I have not done it, but my guess is, if we let 11 5th graders read this passage, they would all come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe Peter?
1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Do you believe Hebrews?
Hebrews 12:22
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 11:
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Do you believe Paul?

Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;


John 13:36
Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
WHERE did Simon Peter follow Jesus?


Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
WHERE did they come from?


Jesus said our reward is in heaven. I guess you will not get to see yours.

Lamad said:
You are going to be SO SHOCKED when your "impossible" takes place. However, you will only get to see it, not participate.

You forgot the words of Jesus: "With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

I have an idea: why not just believe John 14: that Jesus went to heaven to prepare HOMES in heaven. That is what a normal reading tells us. And that He will come back, get those watching for Him and take them to the places prepared. I have not done it, but my guess is, if we let 11 5th graders read this passage, they would all come to the same conclusion.

I believe Jesus is preparing “that great city” right now or maybe He is already finished, who knows. In eternity that will be on the new earth. On your time line there will only be a 7 year stay in heaven. 7 years compared to eternity is only a small blip.

Do you believe Peter?

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You seem to imply Peter meant our eternal reward is eternity in heaven. Even if your time line were correct, it will only be 7 years at most.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Our eternal inheritance will be on the new earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inheritall things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Do you believe Hebrews?

Hebrews 12:22

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


That “heavenly Jerusalem” will on the new earth in eternity.

Hebrews 11:

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Yes it is a heavenly city prepared there and will be brought down to the new earth.

Do you believe Paul?

Colossians 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;


True out hope is now in heaven , but our eternity will not be up there.

John 13:36

Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

WHERE did Simon Peter follow Jesus?


In death Peter followed the risen savior to heaven, his soul is there now.

Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

WHERE did they come from?


They will return from heaven with Jesus at the second coming. Nothing in the text states they are resurrected glorified saints. They are the souls of them that have gone on through death.


Jesus said our reward is in heaven. I guess you will not get to see yours.

Our reward will come with Him.

Isaiah 62:11 Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Jesus also said this:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Your post does not prove pre-trib.
 
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Can you explain why John saw only the SOULS of DEAD believers in Heaven in His VISION ?Souls are not resurrected yet.
John saw no humans in their resurrected/changed bodies in Heaven ....but , only their SOULS .

Did the OT saints that Jesus resurrected, some of which appeared in Jerusalem, go to heaven with Jesus when he ascended wearing their glorified bodies????

John started to worship the angel showing him around heaven but the angel told him he was one of John's brethren from the earth.

Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


There must be a reason that John saw only the resurrected bodies of the martyrs reunited with their souls to reign (the 12 apostles Matthew 19:28) and the other martyrs being priests with Jesus HERE on the EARTH (Revelation 20:4-5)....Think about it !!!

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

You know anything about "Farming", planting/watering/growing/reaping crops???

If you did and were knowledgeable of the scripture you see that the world is a field that God planted and is going to harvest according to the type of crop and the season for it's harvest, which is not the same for all crops.

"Barley" is a crop planted in the fall and harvested in the spring after which "Wheat" is planted to grow through the summer, harvested in the fall, but the field is not totally harvest, some is left to be "Gleaned" of the "poor".

Le 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

OT saints was the Barley crop planted and Firstfruit of the Barley crop harvested when Jesus ascended.

Jesus was the "Corn of wheat" planted that became the "un-leaven Bread of life" and "sprouted above ground" on the "Third day", the HG was sent to "Water" (doctrine/lead/guide/teach) the crop until the "Firstfruit harvest of Wheat" at the "Rapture", but the field is not totally reaped by Jesus, God will glean the field of those "Spiritually Poor" after the Rapture. (Trib period)

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and (Spirit) poor, and blind, and naked:



Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Mt 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Ya'll problem is like Israel problem, that is you think you know more about the scriptures that you actually do, and being ignorant you reject the "Truth" of the scriptures,

And without "Ears to hear" you don't have a "Second witnesses" (HG) to "Bear witnesses" to the "Truth".

That's what the scriptures mean when it says: "He that is of God, hears God", not necessarily the person speaking.

It's also what "poor" means, Spirit poor.

"Farming"
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg


 
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iamlamad

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Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



2Ti 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Because all of the other passages say otherwise...
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Well, that is the way YOU read these verses. Please allow me to give you some advice: when a theory does not fit ALL scripture, instead of relegating those that a theory won't fit to symbolism or non-literal writing, it would be a great time to alter the theory instead of changing the meaning of scripture. ASk yourself: does a verse make good sense in a literal sense (such as the scriptures about the 1000 years)? If so, LEAVE IT ALONE! It was meant to be taken literally.
 
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iamlamad

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If they are absent from the body ....what "part" of the believers in Christ goes to Heaven ?Hint ...their SOULS. Think about it !
Where then did their spirit man go? When the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, did they think they saw a soul? The bible said SPIRIT. What part of a man's WILL (part of the soul) is visible? What part of THOUGHTS are visible? What part of EMOTIONS are visible? I am speaking of visible in the realm of the spirit. Of course NONE of these things are visible. But SPIRITS are visible. That is why those in the boat thought they saw a SPIRIT.

So it will be the SPIRITS with the souls that go to heaven.
 
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iamlamad

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On the contrary, Paul said "a resurrection (singular) there shall be of both just and unjust." He does not say "of each," but "of both."
Yet Revelation 20 makes it VERY clear there will be 2 resurrections; one for the just and one for the sinner. Why then do you choose to believe one and IGNORE the other? Of course one man will be fit BOTH resurrections, so Paul would chose a singular word.

Berean Literal Bible
having a hope in God, which they themselves also await, that there is about to be a resurrection, both of the just and of the unjust.

CAN this verse agree with what John wrote? Of course it can.

A wise man, when there is a choice of a very clear scripture on a subject, will form theory from the CLEAREST and most thorough verses, and then fill in missing pieces on lesser scriptures. Revelation is the most thorough scripture on end times. Why then do you choose to form a theory from a ONE SENTENCE passage where there are much more thorough passages?

You see, it all comes down to HOW you read the bible. I got A's in English and I see no problem with seeing both of these scriptures saying the same thing: A resurrection for the just and A resurrection for the sinner.
 
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