Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[BABerean2]

You posted verses from John....but as I have said to you multiple times in the past, Christ never says the resurrection of the just happens at the same time as the unjust.

Really...

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


hour- G5610


ὥρα

hōra

ho'-rah

Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.


all- G3956


πᾶς

pas

pas

Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Maybe you think Timothy was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Maybe you think John was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.


If the words "hour" and "all" mean what they normally mean in John chapter 5, it destroys your doctrine.
The other two witnesses confirm that this is the correct interpretation.

You are building your doctrine on one passage of difficult interpretation.

There are three or more passages which conflict with your interpretation.
Therefore, your interpretation cannot be correct.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Really...

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


hour- G5610


ὥρα

hōra

ho'-rah

Apparently a primary word; an "hour" (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.


all- G3956


πᾶς

pas

pas

Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Maybe you think Timothy was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Maybe you think John was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.


If the words "hour" and "all" mean what they normally mean in John chapter 5, it destroys your doctrine.
The other two witnesses confirm that this is the correct interpretation.

You are building your doctrine on one passage of difficult interpretation.

There are three or more passages which conflict with your interpretation.
Therefore, your interpretation cannot be correct.

.

baberean2,

1. John 5 is saying that there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. The hour is coming and that is true that these events will take place. This cannot be at the same time because the just is resurrected 1000 years before the unjust. Even if you say the 1000 years is God's time as one day as a 1000 years and vice versa they would not be at the same exact time.

2. John 5:25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS, WHEN THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD; AND THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE.
The hour is coming and now is was in the Messiah's ministry spoken by him. The hour is coming and now is was in Jesus day and still he hasn't come to raise the just and the unjust. This would be contradictory if you take it as literal as happening in Christ day at that very moment. This means that verse 28 is not a time factor for the 2 resurrections happening at the same time.
3. The order of resurrection doesn't matter whether it is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib because it will be before the 1000 years. The last people resurrected are the tribulation saints and that is before the 7 vials of the Wrath of God are poured out on the beast kingdom and the battle of Armageddon. So whether you couple the church being resurrected with them or not it still is not the New Heaven and the New Earth that begins after the battle of Armageddon and the tribulation.

4. I have already proven you wrong about sinners not being in the kingdom for they will be, but they will be put down immediately. Isaiah 65:17; Psalm 2:6-9. All of the 1000 years in Revelation 20 have to be before the New Heaven and the New Earth. This is why the Son of God has to reign in order to put down all his enemies and rid sin and death once and for all literally. Jesus has all authority and power in heaven and earth and God has always been in total control overall but this doesn't mean Satan has not had control of the nations otherwise they would not have to be taken over. Revelation 11:15. You need to learn proper context and proper reconciling all the scriptures together to find the truth on a subject. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

John 5:25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS, WHEN THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD; AND THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE.
The hour is coming and now is was in the Messiah's ministry spoken by him. The hour is coming and now is was in Jesus day and still he hasn't come to raise the just and the unjust. This would be contradictory if you take it as literal as happening in Christ day at that very moment. This means that verse 28 is not a time factor for the 2 resurrections happening at the same time.

It is all about context and confirmation from other passages...


Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(This is clearly a spiritual resurrection, based on faith in Christ.)

Joh 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
(This happened during the time of Christ to those who followed Him. It is again speaking of spiritual resurrection.)

Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(This is future tense and has to be a bodily resurrection of all those in the grave, because that is what the text says.)

Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Timothy confirmed that Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.



2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

John says the judgment of the dead occurs at the 7th trump.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

You have got two other witnesses which confirm your interpretation is wrong, especially Timothy, which you have completely ignored up to this point...

.

 

[ewq1938]

Really...

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again, you misread that verse inserting that the two resurrections happen at the same time when Paul and Rev 20 show there is time inbetween. Why do you ignore those passages?

2Ti 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Maybe you think Timothy was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.

No, I think you are. Christ will judge the living and the dead but it has nothing to do with the final judgment to hell fire. This is a different judgement where the living are judged to immortality and are resurrected to the glorified body, and the dead are judged not to receive this. A thousand years later Rev 20 tells us they will be bodily resurrected (back to their mortal bodies) and will be judged by the Father to eternal death, called the second death.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Maybe you think John was confused about the timing of the judgment of the dead.

See above.

If the words "hour" and "all" mean what they normally mean in John chapter 5, it destroys your doctrine.

No, it doesn't no matter what the word means. Scripture states the two resurrections happen at different times but you always avoid commenting on those passages.

You are building your doctrine on one passage of difficult interpretation.

You build your doctrine on two passages which you misunderstand, and then you ignore other passages that contradict your doctrine.

There are three or more passages which conflict with your interpretation.
Therefore, your interpretation cannot be correct.

That's incorrect as I have shown multiple times. I won't continue to repeat everything over and over just to see you ignore it again.

 

[ewq1938]

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

John says the judgment of the dead occurs at the 7th trump.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

You have got two other witnesses which confirm your interpretation is wrong, especially Timothy, which you have completely ignored up to this point...

.

Your error is that you don't understand there will be more than one judgment. One at the second coming, and one over a thousand years later.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous. Exactly what Daniel 7 and Rev 20 also show.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but According to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

 

[BABerean2]

Christ does not address time in this

Really...

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Your claim here will not hold water.

He did not say He would set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left 1,000 years later...

.

 

[dfw69]

Your error is that you don't understand there will be more than one judgment. One at the second coming, and one over a thousand years later.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous. Exactly what Daniel 7 and Rev 20 also show.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but According to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

Good post ..I would only add that daniel 7:9 is Jesus...not God ...all.judgement is given to Christ...John 5:22

Jesus will sit on the great white throne to judge the dead....every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord

 

[ewq1938]

Good post ..I would only add that daniel 7:9 is Jesus...not God

Jesus is God I think you meant God the Father. But, it is the Father there:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The ancient of days is not Jesus because Jesus is the son of man and he approaches the ancient of days:


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

...all.judgement is given to Christ...John 5:22

At that time but not on judgment day.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Here Peter also addresses that time when the Father judges "according to every man's work"...that's the great white throne judgement day, the last day. See how it is exactly what we find on judgment day:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here Jesus is distinct from the other one called "God the Judge of all". Often writers will refer to God meaning the Father and mention Jesus separately to make clear the use of "God" meant "God the Father" not "God the son".

We see that here as well:


This is God the Father because verse 22 will distinguish Jesus separately:


Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

compare to this:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God" and "they were judged every man according to their works"

Clearly it is the Father judging in Rev 20.



Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here John refers to the Father as "God" and Jesus as "Christ". Though Christ is God, in the book of Revelation John will refer to the Father as God, and the Son by other titles. This is how we know who is who.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God the Father does the judging here.

Jesus will sit on the great white throne to judge the dead....

He will be there but the Father will be judging not Jesus.

every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord

That's at the second coming not the great white throne judgment.

 

[jerry kelso]

It is all about context and confirmation from other passages...


Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(This is clearly a spiritual resurrection, based on faith in Christ.)

Joh 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
(This happened during the time of Christ to those who followed Him. It is again speaking of spiritual resurrection.)

Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(This is future tense and has to be a bodily resurrection of all those in the grave, because that is what the text says.)

Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Timothy confirmed that Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.



2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

John says the judgment of the dead occurs at the 7th trump.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

You have got two other witnesses which confirm your interpretation is wrong, especially Timothy, which you have completely ignored up to this point...

.

baberean2,

I have to go to work but I'll be back in the morning.
You are mixed up about your resurrections but this doesn't dismiss the fact that the 1000 year reign and everything that happens in Revelation 20 is associated with it and it has to happen right after the battle of armageddon and end with the rebellion of Gog and Magog before Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and the GWTJ and the New Heaven and the New Earth. I have already proved you were wrong about sinners being in the kingdom and I have proved by scripture that the 1st 1000 years of the KoH reign is before the New Heaven and the New Earth. Of course you haven't addressed that and you can't because you have already said that there won't be any sinners in the kingdom. Isaiah 65:20 proves you wrong.
Because of the fact that you are wrong about this point the timing of the resurrection has no bearing on the 1000 years because the last ones resurrected are the tribulations saints who don't take the mark of the beast and this is before the last 7 vials are poured out. Are you going to deny this? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Of course you haven't addressed that and you can't because you have already said that there won't be any sinners in the kingdom. Isaiah 65:20 proves you wrong.

If we place the verse in its proper context, we see that the verse follows the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Therefore, your interpretation cannot be correct.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(The former heavens and earth will not be remembered.)

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. (You cannot have sin and no weeping at the same time.)

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The verse is actually saying that no matter how old a person is, they can be cursed by their sins and not be a part of the kingdom. Only those not in sin can be in the kingdom.

Again, your interpretation causes conflict with the context of the passage.

.

 

[dfw69]

Jesus is God I think you meant God the Father. But, it is the Father there:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The ancient of days is not Jesus because Jesus is the son of man and he approaches the ancient of days:


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.



At that time but not on judgment day.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Here Peter also addresses that time when the Father judges "according to every man's work"...that's the great white throne judgement day, the last day. See how it is exactly what we find on judgment day:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here Jesus is distinct from the other one called "God the Judge of all". Often writers will refer to God meaning the Father and mention Jesus separately to make clear the use of "God" meant "God the Father" not "God the son".

We see that here as well:


This is God the Father because verse 22 will distinguish Jesus separately:


Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

compare to this:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God" and "they were judged every man according to their works"

Clearly it is the Father judging in Rev 20.



Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here John refers to the Father as "God" and Jesus as "Christ". Though Christ is God, in the book of Revelation John will refer to the Father as God, and the Son by other titles. This is how we know who is who.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God the Father does the judging here.






He will be there but the Father will be judging not Jesus.




That's at the second coming not the great white throne judgment.

I don't doubt that both will be there ...working as one

 

[ewq1938]

I don't doubt that both will be there ...working as one

Do you now agree that it's the Father sitting on the throne and judging in Dan 7:9 and not Jesus? Keep in mind Jesus doesn't even show up until after it's written that "judgment was set" and "the books were opened".

 

[Jan001]

No he doesn't. He is using a thousand years, no less or more, same with the day, one day not two or 500.

You only believe the thousand years is figurative. There is no such indication that it is however.​

Time never ends because there is an eternity of time, with a new fruit each month on the tree of life.

Not immediately as there is a war to fight and some other things to do first. Also, that judgment is not the same one found in Rev 20 because there is no separating the good and the bad since they had been earlier by Christ.

Yes, the time is coming that the saved will be raised FIRST as Paul writes, then Rev 20 tells us a thousand years passes, then after that the "rest of the dead" will be resurrected and judged. If you don't consider all the scriptures pertaining to the resurrections then you won't be able to see the entire picture.​

​

Perhaps we will get into another discussion some day.
Shalom

 

[jerry kelso]

If we place the verse in its proper context, we see that the verse follows the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Therefore, your interpretation cannot be correct.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(The former heavens and earth will not be remembered.)

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. (You cannot have sin and no weeping at the same time.)

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The verse is actually saying that no matter how old a person is, they can be cursed by their sins and not be a part of the kingdom. Only those not in sin can be in the kingdom.

Again, your interpretation causes conflict with the context of the passage.

.

baberean2,

1. 1/3 elect of Israel remnant will come through the fire and 2/3 will be cut off in the tribulation. Zechariah 13:9. This along with the sun clothed woman in Revelation 12 which is the Nation of Israel preserved in the wilderness through the tribulation will all be saved through the tribulation and preserved to receive the kingdom. This is not the church.

2. Israel the nation has to be purged from sin to receive their covenant to receive the covenant. It is eternal and will happen. Isaiah 54: 5. The maker and Lord of hosts is Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; and the God of the whole earth.

3. Verse 6 talks about Israel a wife of youth, in a small moment they were forsaken but with the Lord of Hosts great mercies will he gather them and hid his face but with everlasting kindness he'll have mercy on them, saith the Lord thy Redeemer. He is coming to redeem the nation of Israel in the tribulation.

4. Verse 9: For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth: so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Verse 10: For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. This is speaking of Physical Israel and not the church. Israel's covenant is forever just as sure as the promise of no flood such as Noah's which covered the whole earth again.

5. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. Isaiah 65:9 This is Israel and Judah which Ezekiel 37 says Israel will come back from the graves for they are dead and shall be regathered and brought together with Judah as the 2 sticks. This is not the church. This is not spiritual Israel. The church is not dead and does not to be revived and where will they regathered out of? Isaiah says that Israel will be recovered the 2nd time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros, and from Cush and from Elam and from Shinar and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. This is to gather Israel and Judah for an ensign for the nations. Israel will be at the head of the nations with the law going forth from the earthly Mt. Zion. This is not the church and this is not the heavenly Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem will come down to earth and not till after the tribulation and the first 1000 years of the earthly kingdom.

6. Isaiah was looking at the kingdom for Israel and the new heavens and the new earth and switches back and forth many times. He speaks of creating New Heavens and the New Earth and things will not be remembered and in the earthly Jerusalem it will be a little of the same because all will be peace in the millennial kingdom. However, in the 1st 1000 years there will be sinners in heart and will be accursed. In the days of the New Heaven and the New Earth there will be no more sinners.

7. Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron and he comes forth from the rod of Jesse and the lineage of David concerning the physical posterity and the kingdom (Isaiah 11:1,4, Isaiah 9:6-7). Isaiah 11:4: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

8. The Messiah will rule with a rod of Iron from physical Israel in the millennial kingdom. The smiting of the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked is not talking about the Day of the Lord in the battle of Armageddon but judging in the kingdom. If it was the New Heaven and the New Earth there would be no reason of Christ ruling with a rod of Iron. There would be no reason to bring a plague to those who do not obey the law and come to the feast of tabernacles Zechariah 14:16-19. The Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles, verse 18. Heathens are sinners. This is not the new heaven and the new earth. The millennial kingdom is different in nature which is called the KoH from the New Heaven and the New Earth which will be called the KoG for the KoH will be given back to the father from the son so God will be all in all and the KoG will be in complete harmony spiritually and physically.

9. Physical Israel at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4), Christ and the saints old and new and Israel and the Church will rule with a rod of Iron (Psalms 2:9, Isaiah 11:4), The millennial kingdom and the new heavens and the earth will be 1000 years apart. When death is completely done away with which won't be until the GWTJ which is before the New Heaven and the New Earth and not after. (Revelation 20).

10. 1 Corinthians 15 says that Christ has to rule over the earth until his enemies are put under his feet. If it was the New Heaven and the New Earth ruling and reigning he could not put his enemies under his feet because all will be peace completely and death will not be there at all. Yes the KoH reign has to happen so his enemies will be put under his feet and so he can give the kingdom in the New Heaven and the New Earth back to the father so God will be all in all known as the KoG. The KoG is universal but the KoH is the physical earth that is sin and has to be brought back in harmony with the universal KoG. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

1. 1/3 elect of Israel remnant will come through the fire and 2/3 will be cut off in the tribulation. Zechariah 13:9. This along with the sun clothed woman in Revelation 12 which is the Nation of Israel preserved in the wilderness through the tribulation will all be saved through the tribulation and preserved to receive the kingdom. This is not the church.

The first part of the passage is a history lesson...

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(This occurred when Herod the Great killed the male babies, in an effort to kill the Messiah.)

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(This is the birth and death of Christ. He destroys the wicked with the rod of Iron, based on the 2nd Psalm.)



Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The potter destroys the pots with the iron rod. He does not correct them.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The Church)


Act_14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

.

 

[dfw69]

/

 

[jerry kelso]

The first part of the passage is a history lesson...

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(This occurred when Herod the Great killed the male babies, in an effort to kill the Messiah.)

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(This is the birth and death of Christ. He destroys the wicked with the rod of Iron, based on the 2nd Psalm.)



Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The potter destroys the pots with the iron rod. He does not correct them.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The Church)


Act_14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

.

baberean2,

1. Your history lesson is used as an historical context and that is nothing used but it doesn't fit the time factor of the tribulation. Revelation 1:19. Revelation 12:17 says remnant of her seed and this denotes a birth and the 144,000 are raptured as the manchild to the heavenly Mt. Sion. Revelation 14.

2. The testimony of Jesus are Jewish believers who believe in the New Covenant.
You have skated the scriptures I gave you that proved your whole scenario between the millennial kingdom and the new heaven and the new earth and above all the scriptures that show physical Israel who will believe and God will forgive their sins so they can receive the kingdom. I also showed that Christ will rule the nations with a rod of iron and punish people who will not obey and who he will smite with a plague and the rod of his mouth, etc.

3. Psalm 2:8; Christ will give Israel the HEATHEN WHICH ARE SINNERS AND THOSE WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE. Like a potter's vessel like a potter doesn't mean they will come to God. They have to obey God so they won't perish in verse 12.

4. You are wrong again and cannot reconcile the scriptures that show the difference between the millennial kingdom and the new heaven and the new earth and between Israel and the true church of their respective rulership positions in the kingdom with your view which doesn't agree with 1 Corinthians 15:25-28. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Psalm 2:8; Christ will give Israel the HEATHEN WHICH ARE SINNERS AND THOSE WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE. Like a potter's vessel like a potter doesn't mean they will come to God. They have to obey God so they won't perish in verse 12.

4. You are wrong again and cannot reconcile the scriptures that show the difference between the millennial kingdom and the new heaven and the new earth and between Israel and the true church of their respective rulership positions in the kingdom with your view which doesn't agree with 1 Corinthians 15:25-28.

Jerry,

You continue to transfer what belongs to Christ to the modern descendants of Jacob.

It is Christ that is found in the 2nd Psalm, not Israel.

You have attempted to get a 1,000 year reign out of the New Heavens and New Earth from Isaiah chapter 65.

You continue to try and divide God's people, but Christ says you are wrong in the verse below.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds/ Covenant Confusion/ Ignoring the Book of Hebrews/ doctrine is not scriptural, based on the words of Christ above.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You continue to transfer what belongs to Christ to the modern descendants of Jacob.

It is Christ that is found in the 2nd Psalm, not Israel.

You have attempted to get a 1,000 year reign out of the New Heavens and New Earth from Isaiah chapter 65.

You continue to try and divide God's people, but Christ says you are wrong in the verse below.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds/ Covenant Confusion/ Ignoring the Book of Hebrews/ doctrine is not scriptural, based on the words of Christ above.

.

baberean2,

I gave you a clear scripture that says Israel will inherit the covenant forever as head of the nations and that they will be reunited with Judah and the two sticks shall be one. This means all Israel will be saved.
All you have given is a straw man of spiritual Israel and built a whole doctrine around it. So I am not the one transferring what belongs to Christ for Christ is the one who will be the overall king of the earth and rule with his elect of Israel because he promised that he would. Strike one for you.

2. Psalm 2 is a know fact that it is about Christ and the kingdom which is the Davidic. Verse 7; I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Luke 1:32; He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. Verse 33; And he (Messiah) shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
To say there is no connection to the Davidic covenant and the nation of physical Israel is a willful ignoring of plain scripture and what the covenants are really about. Strike two for you.

3. I am not attempting to get a thousand years out of the New Heaven and the New Earth. What you fail to realize is the truth of the scriptures that there will be sinners in the millennial kingdom of which I gave. Since there will not be sin in the New Heaven and the New Earth and it is a literal statement it can only harmonize with the scriptures on the millennial kingdom. This is the only way there can be no contradictions. Strike three and you are out.

4. I am not trying to divide the people of God but I am trying to show the true context of the redemptive plan of God.

5. John 10:16: The other sheep of the fold was the lost jew and the lost gentile and they became one at Calvary when the walls of separation were broken down. This doesn't have anything to do with the covenant of Israel and the David covenant and their position at the head of the nations. That is like saying so and so is ruling here in a greater position or a particular position and that isn't right because it is all about Christ. That is ridiculous. Who do you think is going to rule with Christ at the head of the nations? You say it is heavenly Jerusalem but there is no scripture that says that or implies that. It says that the nations that are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the KINGS OF THE EARTH do bring their glory and honour into it. There will be Kings on earth where Israel will be the head of the nations.

6. You can disagree and be somewhat right in your own context but you cannot be right in the biblical context and you cannot reconcile the scriptures together to harmonize.
This is what happens when one spiritualizes scriptures instead of believing plain scriptures and total context overall. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You can disagree and be somewhat right in your own context but you cannot be right in the biblical context and you cannot reconcile the scriptures together to harmonize.
This is what happens when one spiritualizes scriptures instead of believing plain scriptures and total context overall.

You are advocating a plan of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

All who will be saved after the Cross, will become part of the Church.
The New Covenant Church was announced by Jeremiah in the Old Testament at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is found spoken of by Christ in His own words.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

This New Covenant is "now" in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


There is now no other plan of Salvation.
Paul warned that we are to preach no other plan.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan, as is taught by some Dispensationalists.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the Plan.
.