Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

Please don't try and correct me about this, I have already broken down the Gentile dynasty from then to now, in Daniel on another post. I see you don't know prophesy when you read it.

Nowhere in the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi will you find reference to Rapture. Keep in mind that the apostle Peter said in 2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Peter is letting us know that the Old Testament is more surer then the New Testament.

In fact all of the prophets spoke of the Kingdom and all things pertaining to the Kingdom being here on earth. Now if God is going to take his faithful (church) to heaven before the Great Tribulation to protect them and keep them away from Armageddon, then surely the prophets would have told us of this event. Instead the prophets tell us (Isaiah 45:11-12 & 18) “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens and all their host have I commanded. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; "God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, and he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." The word of God speaks of the Resurrections, not a Rapture.

I know enough to know when Daniel was speaking of Antiochus versus the Beast of Revelation. It is apparent that you don't.

Again you miss it! There IS a reference to the rapture in the Old Covenant.

Isa 26:
19 But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

1 Thes. 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [we which are alive and remain shall be caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him [so shall we ever be with the Lord]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

In summary, Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming, when the dead in Christ will rise. That event will cause a great earthquake [Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened] which will be Paul's "sudden destruction." But when the earth begins to shake, two different groups of people get two different results: those IN CHRIST get raptured, while those in the darkness get the sudden destruction - which Paul tells us will be the start of God's wrath, and the Day of the Lord. Isaiah was prophesying this event: we will be escorted to our rooms in heaven to wait out His wrath on earth.

God's wrath is surely coming, but it is not meant for His church. We can escape His wrath if we can only believe His Word. It seems SO MANY here do not believe.

When you are left behind, remember God's word for that day will be that you will be overcome. It will not be an easy time. But, there is Luke 21:36.

 

[farout]

I know enough to know when Daniel was speaking of Antiochus versus the Beast of Revelation. It is apparent that you don't.

Again you miss it! There IS a reference to the rapture in the Old Covenant.

Isa 26:
19 But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

1 Thes. 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [we which are alive and remain shall be caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him [so shall we ever be with the Lord]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

In summary, Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming, when the dead in Christ will rise. That event will cause a great earthquake [Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened] which will be Paul's "sudden destruction." But when the earth begins to shake, two different groups of people get two different results: those IN CHRIST get raptured, while those in the darkness get the sudden destruction - which Paul tells us will be the start of God's wrath, and the Day of the Lord. Isaiah was prophesying this event: we will be escorted to our rooms in heaven to wait out His wrath on earth.

God's wrath is surely coming, but it is not meant for His church. We can escape His wrath if we can only believe His Word. It seems SO MANY here do not believe.

When you are left behind, remember God's word for that day will be that you will be overcome. It will not be an easy time. But, there is Luke 21:36.

I do agree that many no longer believe the basic tenants of the Christian faith. The Bible is for many is not completely trust worthy from beginning to end. Evolution is more believable that Genesis 1 & 2. The Resurrection of Jesus is explained away with the "swoon" theory, and a large number do not believe Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" way to heaven. Many accept marriage differently than what God has said is between a man and a woman. Friend, it never stops with just when Christ will return. There is always someone willing to say you and the Bible are wrong..

 

[keras]

And in 1948 a great miracle of God took place: Israel became a nation once again. Such a thing has never happened before in the history of this planet.

Do you really think that the State of Israel is the fulfilment of God's plan for Israel? What about the fact they reject Jesus?
In no way are the Israelis the people God wants to 'display His glory, to be a light to the nations and His witnesses'. They face judgement, as many prophesies say and only a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 4:3, Ezekiel 21:1-7
No, it will be all the Lord's righteous people, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in, who will soon occupy all of the Holy Land. Although you fail to provide scriptures for your post, I think you mean Isaiah 66:7-9 is fulfilled by the current Israel? In no way is this assumption correct. It took 50 years from the start, for the State of Israel to be declared. The great re-joining of Judah and Israel as per Ezekiel 37, is yet to happen and then the Lord will bless His people as they live in all that area given to Abraham, so long ago.

 

[Riberra]

But the truth of 2 Thes. 2 is that a departure is the ONLY thing that fits the entire context of the passage. First the THEME of the passage is THE departure or rapture or gathering.

The theme is that our gathering unto Jesus will NOT COME UNTIL (EXCEPT v3) .... Except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In clear that mean that the falling away from the faith (apostasia) AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.

Lets simplify this further for you Lamad, there is two events who must occurs BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.
-First : there will be a falling away from the faith (apostasia)
-Second:the man of sin will be revealed.



2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[iamlamad]

I have a sincere question, not intending to stir up anger, but seeking a response that is kind in nature. If and when the "gathering" happens; I can't understand exactly why a person thinks all is fine and good and bang, Jesus comes and we are taken out. I wonder don't you think things get worse and worse to a boiling point and them Jesus comes? I wonder if there is much of a difference in the start of the tribulation, and if the return of Jesus comes when it is about to get real bad? I hope you follow my point.

Again I am wanting your opinion not an argument, and I am gathering opinions not debates. I hope I am clear on my intentions. I lean on a mid-trib point.

I am convinced that in Rev. 7 John SAW the raptured church in heaven. Keep in mind, in John's narrative, he has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint or the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, yet John tells us that these "came out of great tribulation." This does NOT mean that they came out of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. What it DOES mean is what you suggested above, that things will get WORSE, not better and the murders and beheadings going on in the rest of the world will surely come here also. As the bible says, we WILL HAVE tribulation on earth, because Satan is god of this world now. All the murders of Christians in the world today come from Satan and his hatred towards believers.

None of this is the wrath or God. But His wrath WILL BEGIN the moment we are pulled off the earth. I see the rapture taking place at the 6th seal, one moment before the earthquake. John tells us that the earthquake is when God's wrath begins. John then saw the church in heaven shortly after. I also believe that the earthquake of the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction."

There are other reasons I see the rapture there, but I will not get into them now.

 

[Job8]

Do you really think that the State of Israel is the fulfilment of God's plan for Israel?

The existence of the state of Israel is a reminder to all the Preterists that God still has to deal with Israel directly. The state of Israel was founded on unbelief and Zionism while rejecting the Messiah. True enough. At the same time there are many Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel awaiting their "Messiah". At the same time there are many Messianic Jews (who believe on Jesus as Lord and Savior) in Israel who are attempting to bring Jews to Christ. At the same time, there are many Gospel ministries to Jews in Israel. At the Second Coming of Christ, Jesus will not only deal with the Jews in Israel, but He will gather all the Jews from around the world to Israel and deal with them as their Messiah, Deliverer, and Saviour. So the state of Israel is not irrelevant by any means.

 

[iamlamad]

I am not sure what your point is concerning I don't understand what love is? I am totally believing that we are to be prepared all the time. I don't know when Jesus will return. Do you? No scheme or ideology or statement of pre, mid, or post, really can be proven until it comes about. The huge issue is are you ready to endure what ever it takes?

Those great believers of the past who died just to get the Bible in our hands is a story of suffering beyond our imagination. If you haven't read some of FOXE'S BOOK OF MARTYRS you need to do so. I can't help but think that those who suffered back then, surely could thought they were in the tribulation.

Do we have the right to expect we will not endure so very great suffering in our lifetime? I fully believe we should expect suffering and if we don't then we have not had our faith proven by fire to be pure. Saying this you just might have a guess as to what my position on the tribulation is.

We certainly have a right to NOT suffer under God's wrath. Scriptures prove this. But we live in a fallen word that Satan is the god of - and he hates believers. The bible tells us we will suffer tribulation. Thank God we that live in the US have been free from much tribulation for a long time. I think that time is coming fast to a close. The US has not repented since 9/11. That tells me we will be hit again. Worse yet, if you have read "The Harbinger" you will see that the US has almost thumbed its nose at God as if to day WE DON'T NEED YOUR PROTECTION. I think Terrorists WILL hit the US again. I suspect beheadings will come to the USA.

However, soon after the rapture, the Day of the Lord and 70th week come. There we find that God's wrath is poured out. People try to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath, but that is impossible, for they are concurrent. We will not be here While God's wrath is poured out. The 70th week or "tribulation" will begin with the 7th seal and go to the 7th vial. His wrath begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment and then continues on through the entire week. That is why I know the rapture comes before the entire week.

What we will have to live through between now and the rapture remains to be seen. Its not going to get better!

 

[iamlamad]

The theme is that our gathering unto Jesus will NOT COME UNTIL (EXCEPT v3) .... Except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In clear that mean that the falling away from the faith (apostasia) AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.

Lets simplify this further for you Lamad, there is two events who must occurs BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.
-First : there will be a falling away from the faith (apostasia)
-Second:the man of sin will be revealed.



2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except there come a DEPARTING FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Falling away is a poor translation of apostasia that does not fit the context.

In clear that mean that the falling away from the faith (apostasia) AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.

You say that because you mistakenly think that the gathering is the Day of the Lord. What Paul wrote is that the DEPARTING is what comes first, before the man of sin is revealed. The Bride of Christ who will be "taken out of the way" is what is restraining. That is why the departing must come FIRST. Paul's argument is that if someone SEES the man of sin then they will KNOW they are IN the day of the Lord. Even that part of Paul's argument proves your theory wrong.

there is two events who must occurs BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.
-First : there will be a falling away from the faith (apostasia)
-Second:the man of sin will be revealed.

That is just NOT what Paul wrote. That is what YOU THINK he wrote. ONLY ONE THING must come first, and that is the departing. That is what is written. THAT DAY, that is "the Day of the Lord," cannot come except the church is "taken out of the way" or departed. That is the ONLY thing Paul says must come first. Your preconceptions cause you think think differently that what Paul wrote. Next, He did NOT write, "day of our gathering." You added that to fit your theory.

Besides it is not A departing, it is THE departing: a very special one. Could one say that about a "falling away?" There have always be some falling away and new ones coming. This just does not fit the context.

 

[Riberra]

Except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except there come a DEPARTING FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Falling away is a poor translation of apostasia that does not fit the context.

In clear that mean that the falling away from the faith (apostasia) AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.

You say that because you mistakenly think that the gathering is the Day of the Lord. What Paul wrote is that the DEPARTING is what comes first, before the man of sin is revealed. The Bride of Christ who will be "taken out of the way" is what is restraining. That is why the departing must come FIRST. Paul's argument is that if someone SEES the man of sin then they will KNOW they are IN the day of the Lord. Even that part of Paul's argument proves your theory wrong.

there is two events who must occurs BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.
-First : there will be a falling away from the faith (apostasia)
-Second:the man of sin will be revealed.

That is just NOT what Paul wrote. That is what YOU THINK he wrote. ONLY ONE THING must come first, and that is the departing. That is what is written. THAT DAY, that is "the Day of the Lord," cannot come except the church is "taken out of the way" or departed. That is the ONLY thing Paul says must come first. Your preconceptions cause you think think differently that what Paul wrote. Next, He did NOT write, "day of our gathering." You added that to fit your theory.

So,you are saying than -FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT... - that Paul is talking about in verse 3 have no relation to our gathering with Jesus mentioned in the first verse., is that right ?

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[iamlamad]

So,you are saying than -FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT... - that Paul is talking about in verse 3 have no relation to our gathering with Jesus mentioned in the first verse., is that right ?

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Since Greek texts differ on Day of Christ versus Day of the Lord, I think the best translation would be Day of the Lord, simply because that is the term Paul used in his first letter in his rapture passage.

They THOUGHT they were in the Day of the Lord, because of some letter or some prophecy. Paul's argument is to tell them they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and how to know for SURE if the Day of the Lord had come.

Since they THOUGHT they were in the day of the Lord and were very troubled in reference to the rapture and the DAY, it makes good sense that Paul had taught them the rapture comes first, before the day. They were troubled because thy were afraid they had MISSED the rapture. Paul could have just given more clear instructions on WHEN the rapture would be. He chose, lead by the Holy Spirit to instead give instructions on how to know if the DAY had come.

So, before the DAY of the Lord can begin, the departing must come first. THEN, after the church has been "taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed and then all will know that the DAY has started and they are IN IT. (Of course NOT the ones who have departed!) This part is more for those left behind and for his first readers.

This is great comfort to them, for they knew the man of sin had not yet been revealed so the DAY had not come. They were NOT in the Day of the Lord. I am quite sure they understood Paul's other meaning because he wrote, "And now you know..." They studied it until they knew what Paul was writing: it was the CHURCH that was the restraining force and it would be the CHURCH that would be taken out of the way. That is why it is THE (a very significant) departing.

And this is how Paul fulfills his THEME of the gathering. In short, Paul wrote that the DEPARTING of the church (being taken out of the way) MUST come first.

 

[Short Timer]

Nowhere in the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi will you find reference to Rapture.

Mr 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:

Mt 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Jer 16:9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.

Jer 25:10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

God was married to Israel and every time Israel backslid on God, the Spirit of God left them,

Jesus and his Bride will leave to before the devil is turned loose on Israel.

Jer 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.


Jer 16:10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, (Falling away) saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The church is getting in the same condition Israel was in when Jesus came, the falling away is evident by all the imagination of his evil heart in interpreting scripture.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Riberra]

Since Greek texts differ on Day of Christ versus Day of the Lord, I think the best translation would be Day of the Lord, simply because that is the term Paul used in his first letter in his rapture passage.

They THOUGHT they were in the Day of the Lord, because of some letter or some prophecy. Paul's argument is to tell them they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and how to know for SURE if the Day of the Lord had come.

Since they THOUGHT they were in the day of the Lord and were very troubled in reference to the rapture and the DAY, it makes good sense that Paul had taught them the rapture comes first, before the day. They were troubled because thy were afraid they had MISSED the rapture. Paul could have just given more clear instructions on WHEN the rapture would be. He chose, lead by the Holy Spirit to instead give instructions on how to know if the DAY had come.

So, before the DAY of the Lord can begin, the departing must come first. THEN, after the church has been "taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed and then all will know that the DAY has started and they are IN IT. (Of course NOT the ones who have departed!) This part is more for those left behind and for his first readers.

This is great comfort to them, for they knew the man of sin had not yet been revealed so the DAY had not come. They were NOT in the Day of the Lord. I am quite sure they understood Paul's other meaning because he wrote, "And now you know..." They studied it until they knew what Paul was writing: it was the CHURCH that was the restraining force and it would be the CHURCH that would be taken out of the way. That is why it is THE (a very significant) departing.

And this is how Paul fulfills his THEME of the gathering. In short, Paul wrote that the DEPARTING of the church (being taken out of the way) MUST come first.

Paul is not talking about a rapture to Heaven but about our GATHERING unto Jesus at HIS Coming.

What Paul told them THEN can apply to Christians of today who have been lead to believe by false teachers that Jesus can come at any time to gather them unto Him. This will happen only unto His prophesied return. Matthew 24:29-31


Paul told them than that Day of our gathereig unto Jesus will NOT COME EXCEPT there come a -departure from the faith first- and that the man of sin be releaved.


2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, BY the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


So lets use your favorite definition of the word Apostasia = a Departure (from the faith)

Our GATHERING unto Jesus SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a DEPARTURE (from the faith) FIRST , AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Short Timer]

I have a sincere question, not intending to stir up anger, but seeking a response that is kind in nature. If and when the "gathering" happens; I can't understand exactly why a person thinks all is fine and good and bang, Jesus comes and we are taken out. I wonder don't you think things get worse and worse to a boiling point and them Jesus comes? I wonder if there is much of a difference in the start of the tribulation, and if the return of Jesus comes when it is about to get real bad? I hope you follow my point.

Again I am wanting your opinion not an argument, and I am gathering opinions not debates. I hope I am clear on my intentions. I lean on a mid-trib point.

As in the days of Noah, nobody had "Tribulations" other than life's normal tribulation, marrying/giving in marriage, expecting some kind of "Future".

No doubt Noah preached to them about the coming flood, but who is going to believe a "Fool" working for 120 years building a "Ship" in the middle of the desert so big there wasn't enough oxen in the world to drag it to the nears water deep enough to float it.

Most of the world's population will be dead by the time it gets to the end of the trib, headed for complete annihilation, with no flesh surviving unless Jesus returns.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff(power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.


Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.



Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Obviously, if no flesh could survive unless Jesus returned, there's no place in this world you could hide and escape.

That only leave the Mansion in Heaven Jesus went to prepare for us.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Mighty big different between how things will be at the time of the rapture and how they will be at the second coming.

 

[Short Timer]

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Why do you dismiss the "DAY OF CHRIST" as if it has no importants in scripture as the "DAY OF THE LORD" does???

http://i27.tinypic.com/x3gy0p.jpg

 

[Riberra]

Why do you dismiss the "DAY OF CHRIST" as if it has no importants in scripture as the "DAY OF THE LORD" does???

http://i27.tinypic.com/x3gy0p.jpg

I did not dismiss , i apply the WARNING that Paul have given.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Short Timer]

I did not dismiss , i apply the WARNING that Paul have given.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You want to explain how the man of sin is not revealed until after the "HE" is "taken out of the way",

and what this "HE" represents???

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Obviously both revealing can't mean the same thing, so what's the difference between them???

 

[ivebeenshown]

Except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except there come a DEPARTING FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Falling away is a poor translation of apostasia that does not fit the context.

In clear that mean that the falling away from the faith (apostasia) AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.

You say that because you mistakenly think that the gathering is the Day of the Lord. What Paul wrote is that the DEPARTING is what comes first, before the man of sin is revealed. The Bride of Christ who will be "taken out of the way" is what is restraining. That is why the departing must come FIRST. Paul's argument is that if someone SEES the man of sin then they will KNOW they are IN the day of the Lord. Even that part of Paul's argument proves your theory wrong.

there is two events who must occurs BEFORE that the Day of our gathering with Jesus will happen.
-First : there will be a falling away from the faith (apostasia)
-Second:the man of sin will be revealed.

That is just NOT what Paul wrote. That is what YOU THINK he wrote. ONLY ONE THING must come first, and that is the departing. That is what is written. THAT DAY, that is "the Day of the Lord," cannot come except the church is "taken out of the way" or departed. That is the ONLY thing Paul says must come first. Your preconceptions cause you think think differently that what Paul wrote. Next, He did NOT write, "day of our gathering." You added that to fit your theory.

Besides it is not A departing, it is THE departing: a very special one. Could one say that about a "falling away?" There have always be some falling away and new ones coming. This just does not fit the context.

Paul did not say that "only one thing must come first" before that day, as you have just said. Paul said that the day should not come unless the 'apostasia' has come first and the 'man of sin' shall have been revealed. That is two things. Now, 'apostasia' in Greek is not used to refer to a physical 'departure', but rather it shares with the same root word used to portray the forsaking of Moses in Acts, and divorce, in the gospels of Matthew and Mark.

 

[iamlamad]

Paul did not say that "only one thing must come first" before that day, as you have just said. Paul said that the day should not come unless the 'apostasia' has come first and the 'man of sin' shall have been revealed. That is two things. Now, 'apostasia' in Greek is not used to refer to a physical 'departure', but rather it shares with the same root word used to portray the forsaking of Moses in Acts, and divorce, in the gospels of Matthew and Mark.

ANY and EVERY Greek scholar will say that only one thing must come first, and then the man of sin can be revealed. Go ahead and count how many times you see "first?" I only count one. And any translation into English tells us the same thing.

What you are missing is this: Paul did not write that after the man of sin is revealed THEN will come the DAY. NO NO NO! Paul wrote that when the man of sin is revealed, at that time it will be INSIDE the DAY...as it in will have already started.

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,
Notice verse 3: this is an exact translation from Greek: young's literal. Most of the other versions have added words. If we did add words, it would look like this:

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because - "it" or "the day of the Lord" will not be - if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

American Standard Version: for it will not be
English Revised Version it will not be,

We can only guess Paul's meaning because he left these words out. However, the correct translation of verse 2 is that the day had already come and they were inside the day. Therefore that must be the meaning for verse 3: Once the man of sin has been revealed, all will know the DAY has started and they are in it.

In fact, there is no further need to argue, for this is the EXACT order John put in in Revelation: the Day of His wrath [Day of the Lord] begins at the 6th seal, and the man of sin is revealed (the abomination event) in chapter 11. Chapter 11 is a MIDPOINT chapter, so of course the DAY will have begun 3.5 years before the man of sin is revealed. So the "day of the Lord" WILL BE, and the proof of the DAY will be the man of sin revealed: but he CANNOT be until the departing takes place first.

Take careful note: when a couple is divorce, ONE PARTY DEPARTS. If someone forsakes another, then they DEPART.
For sure Paul did not use this word in its more normal use, but in context it can mean NOTHING ELSE.
You will have to face the truth: in verse 3b the man of sin has been revealed, as proven by what he does in verse 4. Because of this proven fact, you will have to decide WHAT in verse 3a was "taken out of the way" so that this revealed could happen.

 

[iamlamad]

Paul is not talking about a rapture to Heaven but about our GATHERING unto Jesus at HIS Coming.

What Paul told them THEN can apply to Christians of today who have been lead to believe by false teachers that Jesus can come at any time to gather them unto Him. This will happen only unto His prophesied return. Matthew 24:29-31


Paul told them than that Day of our gathereig unto Jesus will NOT COME EXCEPT there come a -departure from the faith first- and that the man of sin be releaved.


2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, BY the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


So lets use your favorite definition of the word Apostasia = a Departure (from the faith)

Our GATHERING unto Jesus SHALL NOT COME , EXCEPT there come a DEPARTURE (from the faith) FIRST , AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I guess it went right over your head that you had to ADD MEANING to make your theory work!

Can you make "departure" (from the faith) fit someone being "taken out of the way?" Then can you fit "departure" (from the faith) as the event that must come first so that the man of sin is revealed in 3b?

Is this "departure" (from the faith)a VERY SIGNIFICANT one....significant enough that all would recognize it as what Paul was talking about? For example, HOW MANY must fall away before we would know it was THE falling away?

You see, you just created MORE problems!

By the way, in case you missed it: Jesus could come TOMORROW or TONIGHT for His bride. Will YOU be watching?

 

[ivebeenshown]

ANY and EVERY Greek scholar will say that only one thing must come first, and then the man of sin can be revealed. Go ahead and count how many times you see "first?" I only count one. And any translation into English tells us the same thing.

What you are missing is this: Paul did not write that after the man of sin is revealed THEN will come the DAY. NO NO NO! Paul wrote that when the man of sin is revealed, at that time it will be INSIDE the DAY...as it in will have already started.

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,
Notice verse 3: this is an exact translation from Greek: young's literal. Most of the other versions have added words. If we did add words, it would look like this:

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because - "it" or "the day of the Lord" will not be - if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

American Standard Version: for it will not be
English Revised Version it will not be,

We can only guess Paul's meaning because he left these words out. However, the correct translation of verse 2 is that the day had already come and they were inside the day. Therefore that must be the meaning for verse 3: Once the man of sin has been revealed, all will know the DAY has started and they are in it.

The coming of the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin are both referred to in the same verbal tense and are joined together with a conjunction, therefore the adverb 'first' is applied to both verbs. This applies equally to Greek and English.

Paul states that the day of the Lord will not come unless:
- The apostasy shall have come, and
- The man of sin shall have been revealed

With or without the adverb, the shared tense and the conjunction place both conditions equally as requirement for the day of the Lord to come.

In fact, there is no further need to argue, for this is the EXACT order John put in in Revelation: the Day of His wrath [Day of the Lord] begins at the 6th seal, and the man of sin is revealed (the abomination event) in chapter 11. Chapter 11 is a MIDPOINT chapter, so of course the DAY will have begun 3.5 years before the man of sin is revealed. So the "day of the Lord" WILL BE, and the proof of the DAY will be the man of sin revealed: but he CANNOT be until the departing takes place first.

'The wrath of the Lord is come' at the end of chapter 11, after the beast has made war with the saints. Revelation is a complex assembly of visions with many parallels amongst themselves and other parts of Scripture. There are many overlapping or non-sequential timelines.

Take careful note: when a couple is divorce, ONE PARTY DEPARTS. If someone forsakes another, then they DEPART.
For sure Paul did not use this word in its more normal use, but in context it can mean NOTHING ELSE.

If there is no other example in the Scriptures of 'apostasy' meaning anything other than removing oneself from something, why interpret it as oneself being removed by someone else in this one case?

You will have to face the truth: in verse 3b the man of sin has been revealed, as proven by what he does in verse 4. Because of this proven fact, you will have to decide WHAT in verse 3a was "taken out of the way" so that this revealed could happen.

Who says that the revealing of the man of sin is what Paul refers to when saying "and now that which is restraining you know, for to be revealed him in his time"? Paul writes both of the revealing of Christ and of the man of sin. Paul writes first of the day of the Lord with he revelation of Christ with his angels, and says that let no man deceive you, because it cannot happen unless certain conditions are met. Are those conditions not what is restraining Christ from being revealed in his time?