I have a question directed towards Muslims

[ianb321red]

What if one's standard of judgement does not come from the Bible?

Yes - definitely open to that approach. What other standard(s) would you advocate or suggest?

 

[Robban]

Having investigated this issue previously, I actually would argue that it is questionable whether Muhammad even existed as an historical figure.

And even if he did exist, he was meant to be illiterate.

For me, Islam is a total man-made invention and a false religion - although it does still have some truth in it which is enough to deceive people.
I think the Quran can be clearly shown to be drawing/ and prolifically plagiarising from numerous prevalent sources - Hindu myths, Jewish Midrash tales, Zorastrian writings and Gnostics gospels such as Barnabas (which is virtually universally considered to be fake).

The main "proof" however, is what the Quran says about Isa/ Jesus and the differences versus our bible. I do not see how any right-minded person, can consider the Quranic account of Isa/ Jesus as even remotely plausible when you consider who wrote the account, when it was written, where it was written and what evidence supports what was written. If you consider the biblical accounts along the same lines (who, when, where etc etc) you'd have to be very optimistic to think that the Islamic account is anything other than something lifted from one of the aforementioned Gnostic gospels.

"M" probably lived why would there be doubt?

Here is the thing to consider, does Isis/Isil represent him and his way/teaching/example?

Is there anything to say that they do not?

Was it forced conversion from day one?

Btw I know zero about Islam, just the name turns me off.

Sure you can meet briefly muslims who are polite and friendly,
what is so remarkable about that.

Germany in the thirties, German Jewry had nice friendly nieghbours too,
but it was an about turn suddenly, and they informed on them,
and did not want anything to do with them.

Point being, a whole people can turn overnight more or less,
specially with gangs of SA on the streets.

Of course the SA were gotten rid of in the night of the long knives,
they had done their part.

Back to the post so as not to wander too much.

Are Isis/Isil the real McCoy?

 

[Arthra]

Back to the post so as not to wander too much.
Are Isis/Isil the real McCoy?

I would suggest that "Isis/Isil is more an attempted exploitation and distortion of the religion. Resorting to terrorism and killing innocents I would suggest cannot be justified... Consider the following:

The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend. - Qur'an 41:34

112 And whoso committeth a delinquency or crime, then throweth (the blame) thereof upon the innocent, hath burdened himself with falsehood and a flagrant crime. - Qur'an 4:112

"...never try to strengthen your power, position and prestige by shedding innocent blood. Such murders instead of making your position strong will not only considerably weaken it but may also transfer your power totally, taking it away from you and entrusting it to somebody else."

(Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh)

 

[Robban]

I would suggest that "Isis/Isil is more an attempted exploitation and distortion of the religion. Resorting to terrorism and killing innocents I would suggest cannot be justified... Consider the following:

The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend. - Qur'an 41:34

112 And whoso committeth a delinquency or crime, then throweth (the blame) thereof upon the innocent, hath burdened himself with falsehood and a flagrant crime. - Qur'an 4:112

"...never try to strengthen your power, position and prestige by shedding innocent blood. Such murders instead of making your position strong will not only considerably weaken it but may also transfer your power totally, taking it away from you and entrusting it to somebody else."

(Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh)

Well depends what they consider a good deed, if it is slaying anyone who refuses to convert,
One thing I find puzzling is, if the US are so powerful how come they do not finish them off?
Or at least round them up and deport them to the South pole, they may cool down.

I had a couple of Ukrainians staying with me, some years back now,
we were talking about this and that,
and we drifted into a Christian v muslim more or less talk.
They pointed out that Paul did mission trips to Turkey and introduced Christianity,
but today Turkey is Islam.
Of course I know not the ins and outs of it.

 

[ianb321red]

"M" probably lived why would there be doubt?

There is a very serious doubt if you start to ask and investigate this issue seriously. This is of course not a question many people would ask though!

There may have been some sort of historical figure called "Muhammad" who taught a form of monotheism, but whether this figure was who Muslims claim he is - a prophet of God who received the perfect word from God, I am 100% sure this person did not exist.

The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.
But even in the Quran, he is mentioned just 4 times, and of those 4 mentions - 3 appear to be referring to a title.
By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.

So we have arguably nothing outside of the Quran about Muhammad, and arguably next to nothing about Muhammad inside the Quran.

So why would anyone think he DID exist??

 

[Robban]

There is a very serious doubt if you start to ask and investigate this issue seriously. This is of course not a question many people would ask though!

There may have been some sort of historical figure called "Muhammad" who taught a form of monotheism, but whether this figure was who Muslims claim he is - a prophet of God who received the perfect word from God, I am 100% sure this person did not exist.

The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.
But even in the Quran, he is mentioned just 4 times, and of those 4 mentions - 3 appear to be referring to a title.
By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.

So we have arguably nothing outside of the Quran about Muhammad, and arguably next to nothing about Muhammad inside the Quran.

So why would anyone think he DID exist??

I do not know Ian, I do not know.

I'm not even sure I have seen a Koran in real

life let alone pick one up and open it.

I do not believe that stoning someone to death means stoning someone to death either, not literaly absolutely not, it is absurd, horrific.

But such is the condition of man we are born with an evil inclination,

but we also have be given the ability to reason too,

so that we can overcome the evil inclination.

and choose Life.

 

[smaneck]

delete

 

[smaneck]

Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common as far as origin--both based on Christianity and started by one man who claimed to have been given a revelation by an angel.
I think there are contradictions in the Quran, especially about whether there should be compulsion in religion.

Islam is not based on Christianity, although the Qur'an affirms that Jesus is the Messiah. Muhammad had very little contact with Christians in fact. And virtually any Abrahamic religion starts with a man having a revelation. Maybe next time it will be a woman.
The verse regarding there being no compulsion in religion is not a contradiction, it is basic to Islam.

As for CARM.

 

[smaneck]

MARY's daddy was HELI (Luke 3:23- Luke is believed to be the geneology of Mary, traced through her husband. Matthew is Joseph's line).

Nice try making excuses for the contradictions in the Biblical genealogies, but the Bible doesn't say this.

 

[smaneck]

I recognize that sometimes apparent contradictions actually have an explanation that harmonizes them. That's why I'm asking--I want to hear from someone who has studied the Quran so I can learn how good of a harmonization they can offer. If you know the Quran, could you explain how its message harmonizes regarding freedom of religion?

I won't read anything from CARM because I know how they distort things so you will have to show me where you think the verse "There is no compulsion in religion" contradicts anything else.

 

[smaneck]

Having investigated this issue previously, I actually would argue that it is questionable whether Muhammad even existed as an historical figure.

Historians no longer believe that Muhammad was 'born in the full-light of history' as they once did, but there is still more evidence that Muhammad was a historical figure than there is for the existence of Christ.

And even if he did exist, he was meant to be illiterate.

I think the Quran can be clearly shown to be drawing/ and prolifically plagiarising from numerous prevalent sources - Hindu myths

What would anyone in Arabia know about Hindu myths?

,

Jewish Midrash tales, Zorastrian writings and Gnostics gospels such as Barnabas (which is virtually universally considered to be fake).

Uh yeah, the Gospel of Barnabas is a fake. It was written centuries after the Qur'an and could hardly have influenced it.

The main "proof" however, is what the Quran says about Isa/ Jesus and the differences versus our bible.

If you applied the same standard to Jesus as you are to Muhammad, why would you even think Jesus exists?

 

[smaneck]

The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.

What evidence do you have outside of the Bible that Jesus even existed?

By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.

Not sources that are contemporary with Jesus. As for the ones written afterwards, we have those for Muhammad as well.

So why would anyone think he DID exist??

For the same reason you think Jesus exist. However, this thread has been taken out of the debate forum so you really should be discussing it elsewhere.

 

[drstevej]

What evidence do you have outside of the Bible that Jesus even existed?

1:1 I glorify God even Jesus Christ, who hath thus made you wise; for I perceived that ye were perfected in immovable faith, as though ye were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ in flesh and in spirit, and firmly fixed in love in the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with regard to our Lord, that he was truly of the race of David according to the flesh, the Son of God according to the will and power of God; truly born of a virgin; baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him;

1:2 truly nailed for us unto the cross in the flesh in the time of Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch; from the fruit of which cross are we, even from his divinely blessed passion, that he might raise up a sign unto the ages, by means of the resurrection, even unto the saints and them that believe in him, whether they be among the Jews or the Gentiles, in one body of his church.
The Epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 1:1-2

And for others see: https://www.probe.org/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources-2/

 

[smaneck]

1:1 I glorify God even Jesus Christ, who hath thus made you wise; for I perceived that ye were perfected in immovable faith, as though ye were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ in flesh and in spirit, and firmly fixed in love in the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with regard to our Lord, that he was truly of the race of David according to the flesh, the Son of God according to the will and power of God; truly born of a virgin; baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him;

1:2 truly nailed for us unto the cross in the flesh in the time of Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch; from the fruit of which cross are we, even from his divinely blessed passion, that he might raise up a sign unto the ages, by means of the resurrection, even unto the saints and them that believe in him, whether they be among the Jews or the Gentiles, in one body of his church.
The Epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 1:1-2

That's your evidence? That a Christian saint believed it was so? Early Muslims believed in Muhammad as well? How does that provide more historical evidence for Jesus than we have for Muhammad?

 

[ianb321red]

Historians no longer believe that Muhammad was 'born in the full-light of history' as they once did, but there is still more evidence that Muhammad was a historical figure than there is for the existence of Christ.

Depends what you mean - do you mean the Muhammad as prophet who received the final word from God, or do you mean someone called Muhammad who started the Islamic religion?

What would anyone in Arabia know about Hindu myths?

Hinduism pre-dates Islam, so this is not a difficult concept. It is fairly easy to identify aspects of the Quran derived from eastern religions like Hinduism and Zorastrianism.

Uh yeah, the Gospel of Barnabas is a fake. It was written centuries after the Qur'an and could hardly have influenced it.

Again, not a difficult concept - many of the later translations of the Quran have re-worked some of the Barnabas content in.

If you applied the same standard to Jesus as you are to Muhammad, why would you even think Jesus exists?

Why would I think Jesus didn't exist?

 

[smaneck]

Depends what you mean - do you mean the Muhammad as prophet who received the final word from God, or do you mean someone called Muhammad who started the Islamic religion?

The Qur'an calls Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets but it never said He received the final word from God.

Hinduism pre-dates Islam, so this is not a difficult concept.

There is no evidence it reached Arabia.

It is fairly easy to identify aspects of the Quran derived from eastern religions like Hinduism and Zorastrianism.

What aspect is derived from Hinduism?

Zoroastrianism, yes. The same aspects that had already been adopted by Judaism and Christianity.

Again, not a difficult concept - many of the later translations of the Quran have re-worked some of the Barnabas content in.

A translation cannot be the Qur'an.

Why would I think Jesus didn't exist?

By applying the same standard you are applying to Muhammad.

 

[ianb321red]

What evidence do you have outside of the Bible that Jesus even existed?

The Quran?

Not sources that are contemporary with Jesus. As for the ones written afterwards, we have those for Muhammad as well.

How do you define "contemporary with Jesus" exactly?

For the same reason you think Jesus exist. However, this thread has been taken out of the debate forum so you really should be discussing it elsewhere.

But that's clearly not true - are you suggesting that we can understand to them same level about Muhammad from the main text of Islam the Quran, that we can about Jesus from the main text of Christianity?

 

[ianb321red]

The Qur'an calls Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets but it never said He received the final word from God.

So who wrote the Quran and how was it received from god?

There is no evidence it reached Arabia.

What aspect is derived from Hinduism?

There are around a dozen Arabic fables that are in the Quran - for example, Surah 2:65 and 7 163-166 (about people being turned in to apes) was a contemporary myth

Zoroastrianism, yes. The same aspects that had already been adopted by Judaism and Christianity.

For example?

A translation cannot be the Qur'an.

So what is the source(s) of the accounts of Isa in the Quran?

By applying the same standard you are applying to Muhammad.

So, you need to define who Muhammad actually is then

 

[smaneck]

The Quran?

We are talking about historical evidence, remember?

How do you define "contemporary with Jesus" exactly?

Someone who lived during Jesus' time but was not one of the writers of the NT. For instance, if we had something from Pontius Pilate, King Herod or the Sanhedrin that supposedly tried him.

But that's clearly not true - are you suggesting that we can understand to them same level about Muhammad from the main text of Islam the Quran, that we can about Jesus from the main text of Christianity?

The Qur'an at least is contemporary with Muhammad. We now have fragments that can be dated to Muhammad's own time. The Gospels on the other hand, are more like ahadith.

 

[smaneck]

Well depends what they consider a good deed, if it is slaying anyone who refuses to convert,

Killing people who don't convert is a direct violation of the shariah. That's not to say it never happened but it happened a good deal less in Islam than it did in Christianity.

One thing I find puzzling is, if the US are so powerful how come they do not finish them off?
Or at least round them up and deport them to the South pole, they may cool down.

Finish who off? All Muslims? Most of them don't need cooling off, and the ones who do belong in prison.

They pointed out that Paul did mission trips to Turkey and introduced Christianity,

but today Turkey is Islam.
Of course I know not the ins and outs of it.

The Seljuk Turks invade Anatolia (Turkey without Turks) around 1000 A.D., around the same time as they invade Abbasid territory. Conversion proceeded slowly from there as did the adoption of the Turkish language by those who previously spoke Greek. There was still a significant Christian minority in Turkey until well into the 19th century. It was the growth of Turkish nationalism and the secularism of the Young Turks Revolt that eventually led to the genocide of substantial Christian populations there. The final blow was the exchange of Greek and Turkish populations at the end of WWI.