Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[ewq1938]

Satan has not been able to deceive all the nations during the Church Age, in one major way. Through the Gospel the nations of the world have had the truth of God's Plan of Salvation.

That's not true. Satan has actively deceived the nations to the point that there are more people in false religions than Christianity. They are so deceived they ban Christianity and promote the murders of any Christians.

As God's Plan is rejected by the peoples of the world, Satan's plan is replacing it...

You say that and at the same time claim Satan can't deceive the nations.

In the middle east our Brothers and Sisters are being tortured and murdered for our faith.

Our soldiers stationed in the middle east are being told to ignore the cries of little boys who are being sexually assaulted by those who claim to be our allies. It is satanic.

Contrary to your Amil beliefs, Satan is not bound or chained and that is why the world is in the terrible state you describe above. None of those satanic things will happen during the real Millennium when Satan is actually is bound and chained in the pit and no the chains aren't literal metal lol That's God's way of conveying how immobilized and imprisoned Satan will actually be.

.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Contrary to your Amil beliefs, Satan is not bound or chained and that is why the world is in the terrible state you describe above. None of those satanic things will happen during the real Millennium when Satan is actually is bound and chained in the pit and no the chains aren't literal metal lol That's God's way of conveying how immobilized and imprisoned Satan will actually be.

.

That sounds just about right to me, good post.

"Be alert and of sober mind.
Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"

He won't be doing too much prowling around during the thousand years of Rev.20.

 

[jerry kelso]

You are attempting to replace the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ with the modern nation of Israel.

He will be the head, not a nation made up of humans or a land made up of dirt and rocks.

It is not about Israel, Jerry.

The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ. He wrote it. John 1:1

He was the plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, not a land you called Israel.

He fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophecies, not a land called Israel.

He is the One Seed to whom the promises were made, not the many seeds which are the descendants of Jacob.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's plan dealing with the nation of Israel.

He was God's promise to Abraham, before there was a nation of Israel.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the Plan.

God sent His Son to die for us. What else do you expect Him to do?

.

baberean2,

Replacing the Lord Jesus Christ? That is the most ridiculous statement.
The Lord will be the head of the Kingdom. Israel is his chosen elect and the church is his elect as well. You might as well say you are thinking more of the church than Jesus Christ because they are going to be kings, priests and rulers in the kingdom to come.
I don't deny the bible is about Christ and the redemption plan and the restitution of all things. The perception of your thinking is almost anti-semetic. The truth is you want the church to be at the head of the nations instead of who God promised it to and that is the nation of Israel of real blood jews who are obedient to God's call.
God fulfilled the old time prophecies about the Messiah. He has not fulfilled all the old time prophecies for he has not taken over the kingdoms of the world.
You are trying so hard to make the spiritual emphasis that you forgot the physical.
You keep accusing me of things that I don't believe and I have showed you why such as there was no plan be or parenthesis. Israel was never said to have chosen God during his ministry and Christ had to die for the whole world. Now quit accusing me falsely.
God did send his son. I can expect God to stay true to his word and I know he will keep his promises for Israel like he said.
Now you still haven't and can't answer to Isaiah 2:1-4. Since you cannot prove this you have a leg to stand on. Ezekiel 36 is all about the nation where the bones come back together and Israel gathering back and Judah and Israel are the two sticks that will be joined and this has nothing to do with the church.
It is amazing how much you want to keep posting your view but you can't debunk the scriptures I gave for the proper context of the kingdom. Furthermore you keep avoiding of trying to even address Isaiah 2:1-4 because you know it is about Israel the nation and the law going forth out of Zion and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem and when this earth will learn war no more which has not happened yet. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Now you still haven't and can't answer to Isaiah 2:1-4.

Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Isa 2:2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.
(This verse is about New Jerusalem.)

(Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.)


Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Jerry,

How can this scripture be about the 1,000 year reign of Christ that you are proposing, when there is a rebellion at the end of your millennium.
The last verse proves your interpretation to be wrong.


Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Isa 2:2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.
(This verse is about New Jerusalem.)

(Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.)


Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Jerry,

How can this scripture be about the 1,000 year reign of Christ that you are proposing, when there is a rebellion at the end of your millennium.
The last verse proves your interpretation to be wrong.


Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

.

baberean2,

1. Now you have gone to spiritualizing the passage to promote your false belief.

2. The 1st verse shows Isaiah talking about JUDAH AND JERUSALEM.
This is not talking about the heavenly Jerusalem and Hebrews 11:16 has nothing to do with the earthly Jerusalem. You need to pay attention to context. Ezekiel 37 talks about the 2 sticks to be joined together is Judah and Israel. In verse 22 it says; And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel: and one kingdom shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt: and they shall dwell therein , even they and their children and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. More over I will make a covenant of peace with them. it shall be an everlasting covenant with them and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my multiply them, and will set my multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Isaiah 37:22-28.

3. Judah and Israel will no longer be two nations anymore. They won't defile themselves anymore. God will save them out of their dwelling places. their sin will be cleansed. David shall be king over them and they will be God's people. It is an everlasting covenant. How much plainer can it be?

4. You have tunnel vision because you refuse to face the truth and want to stick to the church taking Israel's place because they are spiritual Israel. Yet you want to say it is all about Christ. David being king over them is future and it goes with everything said that was eternal and conditioned by obedience and that their covenant was sure just as sure as the ordinances are sure forever. Israel will be joined by Judah in the earthly kingdom. Proper context of scripture. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You have tunnel vision because you refuse to face the truth and want to stick to the church taking Israel's place because they are spiritual Israel. Yet you want to say it is all about Christ. David being king over them is future and it goes with everything said that was eternal and conditioned by obedience and that their covenant was sure just as sure as the ordinances are sure forever. Israel will be joined by Judah in the earthly kingdom. Proper context of scripture.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the New Blood Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. It is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.

There is One People of God, based on faith in Christ.

There is One Plan of God.

There is One Flock and One Shepherd.


Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

You are taking the focus off of Christ and putting it on the nation of Israel.

You are attempting to substitute the many seeds in place of the One Seed, who is Christ.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


.

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This is the Day of the Lord,and as you should see Christ comes here,where He shall stay....If you think not,please tell me what happens after this,and where does Christ go if He's not gonna stay here...Please show scripture where He returns to Heaven after this event...........

 

[jerry kelso]

The Church of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the New Blood Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. It is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.

There is One People of God, based on faith in Christ.

There is One Plan of God.

There is One Flock and One Shepherd.


Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

You are taking the focus off of Christ and putting it on the nation of Israel.

You are attempting to substitute the many seeds in place of the One Seed, who is Christ.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


.

baberean2,

1. The new covenant was offered to Israel the nation. They had to accept Christ first in order for the kingdom to start. There was no church of jews and gentiles. Gentiles were proselyted in to Judaism to be saved. In the early church they still did not understand about one body of Christ with jew and gentiles on the same playing field. It was very limited because of gradual revelation. Peter didn't get

The Church of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the New Blood Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. It is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.

There is One People of God, based on faith in Christ.

There is One Plan of God.

There is One Flock and One Shepherd.


Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

You are taking the focus off of Christ and putting it on the nation of Israel.

You are attempting to substitute the many seeds in place of the One Seed, who is Christ.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


.

baberean2,

1. Jeremiah 31 the new covenant was made with the nation of Israel only for there was no church of jew and gentiles. Gentiles had no covenant for they were grafted in.

2. Jeremiah 31 was offered to the nation of Israel and it said the covenant was as sure as the ordinances of the moon and stars etc. which will never cease to exist. If they cease to exist then Israel will cease to exist. The ordinances are forever.

3. Israel rejected the New Covenant for the nation and their callings and covenant promises. The church started on the Day of Pentecost even though The jews of that day didn't fully understand about the body of Christ until Peter gets the vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul gets the revelation of the mystery of Christ which was the body of Jews and Gentiles in one body.

4. Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering Savior and John said, Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This is what the jews missed for they were looking for the conquering Savior without obedience to the Messiah and looking to him for forgiveness of sins.

5. Both passages of Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 say; After those day, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts: and will be their God and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity , and I will remember them no more. This could not be talking of the church or just individual lost jews. There is no scripture that the church ever heads the nations of the earth.

6. There is one people in Christ, one flock etc. but that doesn't do away with the jews covenant in the KoH. They will be saved just like anyone else, IN CHRIST because of the NEW TESTAMENT IN CHRIST BLOOD.
IN THE SPIRITUAL SEED WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST TODAY IN THE CHURCH. IN THE KINGDOM WE WILL STILL BE ALL ONE FLOCK. THERE WILL BE POSITIONS OF RULERSHIP IN DIFFERENT CAPACITIES EVEN WITH THOSE WHO WERE IN THE CHURCH AGE. AND SOME RULERS WILL BE IN A GREATER CAPACITY BECAUSE OF THEIR SERVICE TO GOD BEING MORE BECAUSE OF THEIR DEVOTION BEING IN A GREATER STEWARDSHIP OF OBEDIENCE. THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM NOT ONE FLOCK OR ANY BETTER THAN THE NEXT.

7. DO YOU THINK ONE SAINT GETTING A SEEMINGLY GREATER POSITION THAN THE NEXT IS UNFAIR AND DO YOU THINK THEY ARE NOT OF ONE FLOCK? THAT IS WHAT YOU ACCUSE THE SCRIPTURE OF SAYING. YOU ARE SAYING BECAUSE GOD HAS GIVEN THE HEAD OF THE NATIONS TO ISRAEL AND NOT THE CHURCH THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE FLOCK. SINCE THAT DON'T WORK FOR YOU, YOU GO TO IT IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST. WELL, THE KINGDOM IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST AND NO MAN CAN BUILD THE KINGDOM SPIRITUALLY OR PHYSICALLY AND HE IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY. AT THE SAME TIME, HE USES MEN AND HIS OBJECTIVE IS TO HAVE MEN RULE AND REIGN WITH HIM. WE WILL BE PERFECT IN RULING AND REIGNING IN THE KINGDOM AND WILL NOT SIN FOR WE WILL HAVE PASSED OUR PROBATIONARY PERIOD AND RULERSHIP TRAINING. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LEARNING NOW THROUGH OUR SUFFERINGS. 2 TIMOTHY 2:12.

8. God is perfect in his plan and he is in total control but man will rule and reign both jew and gentiles in their proper places and God is the one who appoints those positions.
You are being unfair in scriptural exegesis and to the nation of Israel who is the apple of God's eyes and who is the enemies according to the gospel's sake but elect and beloved for God's sakes and that their covenant is sure to receive the new covenant as a nation and it's position at the head of the nation. Judah and Israel have to be reunited and this cannot be spiritualized into the real jews and the real gentiles as some would like. One spiritual seed does not negate rulership positions and it does not make them in place of the ultimate authority of Jesus Christ who has all power and authority.

9. Now if you think it is unfair that Israel will be at the head of the nations on earth then argue with God for he said it would be that way because his promise was as sure as the ordinances he set in the sky. Are you going to say that the ordinances are not forever? I am sure you will and I am sure I know why if you do. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Now if you think it is unfair that Israel will be at the head of the nations on earth then argue with God for he said it would be that way because his promise was as sure as the ordinances he set in the sky. Are you going to say that the ordinances are not forever? I am sure you will and I am sure I know why if you do.

Jerry,

I accept fully that the Israel of God is the final objective.

Your problem is you are attempting to replace Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh.
Paul points out your error in the text below.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I accept fully that the Israel of God is the final objective.

Your problem is you are attempting to replace Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh.
Paul points out your error in the text below.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

.

1. You fail to understand the whole context of that scripture and cannot reconcile the scriptures together in harmony.

2. God made covenants through Abraham and David concerning the nation of Israel alone that were eternal and he said that he would make it no matter how many times they disobeyed they would fulfill them. The reason it could not actually happen anytime before to be exact is because that the world had not come into play and so the fulness of the gentiles could not come in.

3. In Joshua's time they obeyed God and entered into the promise land for those who would rebel against the commandment would be put to death.

4. Joshua's time was a type of Christ and the promise land fulfilled by the jews. At the same time it doesn't mean that sin didn't happen for Achan sinned and the nation couldn't defeat their enemies because they were accursed but the got rid of sin by stoning.

5. In the millennial kingdom people who are subjects of the kingdom will not necessarily believe in God but will obey the civil law. If they disobey the civil law they will be judged by the rod of Iron of Christ. This has nothing to do with having war. Even at the end of the 1000 years their will be a rebellion gathered but will automatically be killed by fire out of heaven.

6. Also, the similarity in Joshua's day of getting rid of rebels concerning Israel is Zechariah 13:9 where 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 left as the remnant.

7. The spiritual seed of the physical seed will be at the head of the nations. Zechariah 13:9, Revelation 12:13-15. There is no gentile mentioned or associated with these passages at all. You have to build up a straw man that the church takes place of Israel. If want to say that Israel will be of the church because they are saved by the blood of the lamb that is one thing. But true jewish believers will make up an actual nation of bloodline that will be at the head of the nations. There is no scripture that says any gentiles of the church will be at the head of the nations.

8. The church is not a physical nation as such as Israel. The church is a micro-organism of jews and gentiles that are everywhere and not centrally located in one geographical place as the jews are. Revelation 7 shows the man child to be out of the nation of Israel for they are of the tribes of Israel. The man child will be protected through the trumpets (Revelation 9:4). They are raptured in (Revelation 14:1-5) to Mount Sion which is the heavenly Mt. Sion. This is before the blessed dead and the wrath of God on Babylon etc.
Israel the nation will be jews who recognize Messiah and he in turn will put the law in their hearts and they will be at the head of the nations. Spiritually they are of one flock as far as salvation is concerned. These believing jews will be the generation who rules at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4. that have to do with the restitution of all things.

9. You cannot reconcile the scriptures together that prove Israel the nation will have rulership position in the kingdom according to the covenants and the fact that the church has never been said to fulfill the covenant as the head of the nations. Explain that. You are trying to prove that jews and gentiles will be at the head of the nations headquartered in Jerusalem. You have to spiritualize and do away with all the wording of prophecies of Judah and Israel have to come together to be the 2 sticks that will become one.
Because you misconstrue what was being said in Romans 2 you make this whole doctrine to rob Israel of coming back to God as a nation and steal their covenants away by putting the church in their place.
All you have done is disagree and keep beating the dead horse with a couple views that are not in context.
Can you prove that gentiles will be at the head of the nations in Jerusalem in the Kingdom? Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Can you prove that gentiles will be at the head of the nations in Jerusalem in the Kingdom?

Not in the Jerusalem on this rotten, sin-cursed world, which is not eternal.

You have a problem in logic. You claim there are eternal promises in a world that is not eternal.



Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


It is the New Jerusalem, which is now above, that will be the fulfillment of the Promises to Abraham, and David.

You are attempting to refute the fact that the New Blood Covenant Church made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together into one Body is the fulfillment of God's Plan.
It is "now" in effect.



Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


You are attempting to come up with a "back-door", Plan B, way into the kingdom outside of the Church.

The New Blood Covenant Church is the only way of salvation.



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Can I prove Jews and Gentiles grafted together will be head of the nations? I do not have to.
Jesus said it himself.


Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Not in the Jerusalem on this rotten, sin-cursed world, which is not eternal.

You have a problem in logic. You claim there are eternal promises in a world that is not eternal.



Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


It is the New Jerusalem, which is now above, that will be the fulfillment of the Promises to Abraham, and David.

You are attempting to refute the fact that the New Blood Covenant Church made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together into one Body is the fulfillment of God's Plan.
It is "now" in effect.



Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


You are attempting to come up with a "back-door", Plan B, way into the kingdom outside of the Church.

The New Blood Covenant Church is the only way of salvation.



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Can I prove Jews and Gentiles grafted together will be head of the nations? I do not have to.
Jesus said it himself.


Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

.

baberean2,

1. Revelation 20:1 Satan in chains in the bottomless pit.
Revelation 20:2 Satan bound for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:3 The reason for the binding of the devil in the bottomless pit is so he can't deceive the nations. Satan in the pit is for 1000 years and this 1000 years has to be fulfilled or finished. Then he will be loosed for a little season. This is after the 1000 years is over. Verse 7 confirms this loosing after the 1000 years. Verse 8 he goes out to deceive the nations which he hadn't been able to do for 1000 years. Verse 8 Satan goes out to deceive the nations and the deceivers surround the camp of the saints and Jerusalem which is the beloved city and God sends fire down. After this little season of loosing which is after the 1000 years Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. The beast and false prophet were there in the lake of fire before the 1000 years and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the 1000 years. The GWTJ is after the 1000 years and right before the New Heaven and the New Earth.

2. You believe that after the tribulation comes the New Heaven and the New Earth. If so how do you account for the 1000 year reign which the tribulation saints are a part of and then Satan being loosed and his deceiving the nations. Another words, when is the deceiving of the nations and the fire coming from God out of heaven? If you think it is at the battle of Armageddon then how could that be because Christ is coming out of heaven with his saints and this rebellion is fire from God out of heaven. If you try to say it is the same as Jesus destroying them with the brightness of his coming then you would have to do away with the 1000 years. You would have to do away with Satan in the pit or put it in another time such as the 1000 years as now. The tribulation saints are not ruling and reigning now because there is no mark of the beast or Antichrist etc. so how could there be a 1000 year reign now? Revelation 20 is all built around the 1000 years after the future tribulation.

3. If the future tribulation goes into the New Heaven and the New Earth then there is no 1000 years for binding and loosing Satan in and out of the pit. There is no 1000 years for ruling and reigning by the tribulation saints and their is no rebellion by Satan loosed from the pit, there is no 1000 years between the 1st and 2 resurrection and this would put the GWTJ after the New Heaven and the New Earth. Explain your 1000 years. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

If the future tribulation goes into the New Heaven and the New Earth then there is no 1000 years for binding and loosing Satan in and out of the pit. There is no 1000 years for ruling and reigning by the tribulation saints and their is no rebellion by Satan loosed from the pit, there is no 1000 years between the 1st and 2 resurrection and this would put the GWTJ after the New Heaven and the New Earth. Explain your 1000 years.

We seem to be getting somewhere now.
If a Christian died 1,000 years before the Second Coming, there is 1,000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection.

Jesus gives two types of resurrection in John chapter 5.


Joh 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection in John 5. It occurs upon faith in Christ.)

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (This is the second resurrection in John 5.)
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (This bodily resurrection occurs at the judgment of the dead.)

When does this bodily resurrection of all the dead take place?

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Christ judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)

This is confirmed by the following words of Christ.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This resurrection and judgement of the dead occurs at the 7th trumpet.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who has their names written in the Book of Life?


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life.

When are the books read?


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

We seem to be getting somewhere now.
If a Christian died 1,000 years before the Second Coming, there is 1,000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection.

Jesus gives two types of resurrection in John chapter 5.


Joh 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection in John 5. It occurs upon faith in Christ.)

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (This is the second resurrection in John 5.)
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (This bodily resurrection occurs at the judgment of the dead.)

When does this bodily resurrection of all the dead take place?

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Christ judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)

This is confirmed by the following words of Christ.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This resurrection and judgement of the dead occurs at the 7th trumpet.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who has their names written in the Book of Life?


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life.

When are the books read?


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

baberean2,

I know there are two resurrections a 1000 years apart. You believe that the second coming goes into the new heaven and the new earth. This is why there can't be 1000 years in your scenario.

The 1st resurrection is right before the 7 vials which is the wrath of God on the beast kingdom. These in the 1st tribulation martyrs are in heaven in time for the marriage supper of the lamb and will come out of heaven with Christ to do battle at Armageddon. Revelation 19:11-15.
Right after the 2nd coming of Christ and his saints have won the battle of Armageddon the 1000 years start for reigning and ruling. The rebellion at Gog and Magog is 1000 years after the 2nd coming and Satan in the pit. The GWTJ 1000 years after the 1st resurrection because it will be time for the 2nd resurrection. Then the new heaven and the new earth will be after the GWTJ which is 1000 years after the 1st resurrection.

Revelation 11:15 is not fulfillment of the kingdoms of this world it is the angels saying it in the middle of the tribulation because it is in the middle of the tribulation in the days of the 7th trumpet. For it is the time of Jacob's trouble and the last 3.5 years of the tribulation.

I have got to go to work but if you don't believe in the 1st 1000 years of the kingdom is before the New Heaven and the New Earth then you cannot possibly believe Satan is in the pit and then loosed and have the rebellion. Explain the 1000 years of Revelation 20 in detail and with the time factors. Jerry kelso

 

[ewq1938]

We seem to be getting somewhere now.
If a Christian died 1,000 years before the Second Coming, there is 1,000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection.

No because the first resurrection doesn't happen until the second coming. There is a thousand years after the second coming that is between the first and second resurrection.

 

[BABerean2]

Jerry and ewq1938,

The key to understanding the 1,000 years in Revelation chapter 20 is the same as other interpretations of scripture. We must resolve conflict.

Your interpretation produces tremendous conflict in all of the other passages that I gave in Post #533 above.
Therefore it cannot be correct.

You have to ignore or change the clear meaning of those passages to make your interpretation correct.
All of those passages agree with each other, but they do not agree with what you are saying.

The words of Jesus are clear in John chapter 5.

The first resurrection He gave in the chapter is the process of passing from death to life, upon faith in Christ.

The second resurrection He gave is the bodily resurrection of all that are in the graves at the judgment of the dead.


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

I have stated my belief on several occasions that the 1,000 years in Rev. chapter 20 is a symbol of the Church Age.
It has to be in order for all of the other passages in Post #533 to be in agreement, without any conflict.
I have also given two passages that show wicked angels bound now.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Why don't you guys tell us how to get all of the passages in Post #533 to fit your interpretation.
Go through each of them and show how they fit into your literal 1,000 year kingdom, where sin and death remain, after the Second Coming of Christ.
You keep repeating Revelation chapter 20, but never show how it fits into the other texts from the New Testament.

If you cannot show how your interpretation fits into the whole of the New Testament, without producing conflict, then your interpretation is not correct, no matter how many times you repeat it.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry and ewq1938,

The key to understanding the 1,000 years in Revelation chapter 20 is the same as other interpretations of scripture. We must resolve conflict.

Your interpretation produces tremendous conflict in all of the other passages that I gave in Post #533 above.
Therefore it cannot be correct.

You have to ignore or change the clear meaning of those passages to make your interpretation correct.
All of those passages agree with each other, but they do not agree with what you are saying.

The words of Jesus are clear in John chapter 5.

The first resurrection He gave in the chapter is the process of passing from death to life, upon faith in Christ.

The second resurrection He gave is the bodily resurrection of all that are in the graves at the judgment of the dead.


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

I have stated my belief on several occasions that the 1,000 years in Rev. chapter 20 is a symbol of the Church Age.
It has to be in order for all of the other passages in Post #533 to be in agreement, without any conflict.
I have also given two passages that show wicked angels bound now.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Why don't you guys tell us how to get all of the passages in Post #533 to fit your interpretation.
Go through each of them and show how they fit into your literal 1,000 year kingdom, where sin and death remain, after the Second Coming of Christ.
You keep repeating Revelation chapter 20, but never show how it fits into the other texts from the New Testament.

If you cannot show how your interpretation fits into the whole of the New Testament, without producing conflict, then your interpretation is not correct, no matter how many times you repeat it.
.

baberean2,

Nobody rules the kingdom until the second coming has take place and God has set up the kingdom.
The battle of Armageddon goes into the kingdom reign and this cannot be the New Heaven and the New Earth for Satan is bound in the pit at that time. Satan is not bound now. 1 Peter 5:8 He goes about to and fro like a roaring devil seeking whom he may devour. He will not be bound in the future tribulation; Revelation 12 into 13 is where Satan is giving his power, and seat, and authority to the antichrist (Revelation 13:2) He even still has access to the throne right now and accuses the brethren in the future tribulation till the middle of the tribulation when he is fighting Michael and the angels in heaven and then he is kicked out of heaven and can no longer accuse the brethren before the throne. (Revelation 12:7-10-13).

The first resurrection in Revelation 20 is a literal and physical resurrection of people who are already saved and sing the song of Moses and the lamb. Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the 7 vials are poured out as the Wrath of God on the beast Kingdom Revelation 16:1-2.

John is not the only passage to show 2 resurrections and those even in John are physical and literal for one is those who believe and the other are sinners.

The passages in 2 Peter and Jude are talking about the angels that sinned in the days when they had sexual relations with the daughters of men. I have already showed Satan is not in chains now according to these scriptures or any other scriptures. If Satan is bound now who is deceiving anyone? That is just totally ridiculous of even thinking that lot alone saying it.

Nobody said sin and death remain. There will be sinners in the kingdom for that will be for the reason of having the law. Isaiah 2:2-4, 65:20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die an hundred years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old; BUT THE SINNER BEING AN HUNDRED YEARS OLD SHALL BE ACCURSED.
PSALM 2:9 Christ rules with a rod of Iron to bring forth judgement for those who commit sins worthy of death (Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20). Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; Christ will smite the heathen who come up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Punishment and smiting and plagues is all about in judging. 1 Corinthians 15:25; he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet. He will put his enemies under his feet as far as the literal nations in the kingdom and after the 1000 years in the rebellion which is in the kingdom and before the New Heaven and the New Earth.
You are wrong that their won't be no one sinning in the kingdom. But when they do they will be taken care of with the judgement of the rod of iron. Your whole theory is unscriptural and out of context and because you want to spiritualize certain passages that can not be substantiated by scripture and cannot be reconciled. You need to quit believing such nonsense. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You are wrong that their won't be no one sinning in the kingdom. But when they do they will be taken care of with the judgement of the rod of iron. Your whole theory is unscriptural and out of context and because you want to spiritualize certain passages that can not be substantiated by scripture and cannot be reconciled.

We have already covered this ground before.
You failed to get your interpretation to match up with multiple passages, including the words of Christ in John chapter 5 and Matthew chapter 25.

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Timothy says Christ judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Christ said the hour is coming when all the dead will be resurrected and judged, both the just and the unjust.

Timothy said Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.

John said the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ at the 7th trumpet.
John also says the time of the judgment of the dead also occurs at the 7th trump.

Now deal with each of these passages and get them to line up with your interpretation.
.

 

[ewq1938]

Jerry and ewq1938,

The key to understanding the 1,000 years in Revelation chapter 20 is the same as other interpretations of scripture. We must resolve conflict.

It does no good to compare apples and oranges though.

Your interpretation produces tremendous conflict in all of the other passages that I gave in Post #533 above.
Therefore it cannot be correct.

There are no such conflicts.

The first resurrection He gave in the chapter is the process of passing from death to life, upon faith in Christ.

The second resurrection He gave is the bodily resurrection of all that are in the graves at the judgment of the dead.

That is not what we find in Rev 20. The first resurrection are those who died for Christ in the tribulation and are resurrected so they can live and reign with him for a thousand years over the nations. After that time period, then the second resurrection will happen which is a resurrection to damnation.

I have stated my belief on several occasions that the 1,000 years in Rev. chapter 20 is a symbol of the Church Age.

That would be incorrect. It's a symbol of the rod of iron reign by Christ and his resurrected saints over the unsaved nations. Nothing in Rev 20 supports your view which is why you always ignore what Rev 20 says in favor of other scriptures.

I have also given two passages that show wicked angels bound now.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Those angels are only part of the angels that followed Satan. The rest of his angels are not bound as we see in Rev 12.

Go through each of them and show how they fit into your literal 1,000 year kingdom, where sin and death remain, after the Second Coming of Christ.

You have never proven that death and sin occur in the thousand years. You have to do that instead of just asserting they are factual.

You keep repeating Revelation chapter 20, but never show how it fits into the other texts from the New Testament.

If you cannot show how your interpretation fits into the whole of the New Testament, without producing conflict, then your interpretation is not correct, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I have addressed the things you cited in this post. Go ahead and cite some more things if you want comments on them.

You posted verses from John....but as I have said to you multiple times in the past, Christ never says the resurrection of the just happens at the same time as the unjust. You ignore both Rev 20 where the dead in Christ live (resurrect first) and what Paul wrote about the dead in Christ rising FIRST. If you stand on the John verses alone, you have an incomplete understanding of the two resurrections and when they happen as well as which happens first.

 

[jerry kelso]

We have already covered this ground before.
You failed to get your interpretation to match up with multiple passages, including the words of Christ in John chapter 5 and Matthew chapter 25.

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Timothy says Christ judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Christ said the hour is coming when all the dead will be resurrected and judged, both the just and the unjust.

Timothy said Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.

John said the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ at the 7th trumpet.
John also says the time of the judgment of the dead also occurs at the 7th trump.

Now deal with each of these passages and get them to line up with your interpretation.
.

baberean2,

1. You believe the 1000 years is a symbol of the church. You have no valid scripture for that.
The church is in the 1000 year reign in rulership position around the earth for that is what we are being trained for right now. The tribulation saints will a part of the new testament saints in heaven and the old testament saints in heaven as well. But Israel the nation will be at the head of the nations and will be united with Judah where the Christ will rule with a rod of Iron.

2. You believe that the tribulation will go into the New Heaven and the New Earth for all in Revelation 20 has to be in the 1000 year reign before the New Heaven and the New Earth including the rebellion of Gog and Magog. You say that this is impossible because there won't be any sin or sinners in the kingdom. This is not true. There will be sinners in the millennial rule: Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:2-4; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:7-10.

3. Isaiah 65:20 is the scripture you said was the New Heaven and the New Earth and yet is says the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. The truth is this scripture is in the millennial kingdom which is after the tribulation when Christ and the saints will rule in the 1000 year kingdom where the law will go forth from the earthly Jerusalem with the real jewish nation of Israel united with the house of Judah where Christ was out of and will rule out that tribe which was David's tribe and it is through his name the kingdom began for Israel.

4. You are wrong as the scripture shows that there will be sin and sinners in the 1000 year reign that will be put down immediately for Christ will rule with a rod of iron with his saints.

5. The resurrections are a 1000 years apart and even if the church was in the last half of the tribulation there would still be a 1000 years before the New Heaven and the New Earth.

6. Now are you going to tell me that there won't be anyone to sin in the Kingdom of Heaven of 1000 years? Are you going to deny the truth of Isaiah 65:20 that says there will be sinners in the 1000 year reign?
Zechariah 14:17-18 shows that those who don't come to the feast of tabernacles that God will smite the heathen with a plague of no rain this will be their punishment etc. Are you going to deny this?
In conclusion, whether you interpret these scriptures as the New Heaven and New Earth or the millennial kingdom sin will be there and both of these kingdoms are after the tribulation and is not now. Are you going to deny this? Are you going to tell me that you haven't contradicted yourself? Because you clearly said their will be no sin in the kingdom and the scripture proves you wrong. Jerry kelso