Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[BABerean2]

1. Are you purposely staying in the dark or do you just not understand context?
Israel as a nation has not a part of the election because they were blinded. The nation had already rejected Jesus in his ministry. Matthew 23:37-39

2. The KoH concerning Israel was not being in offered in the early church because Christ told his disciples to their question about him restoring the kingdom at that time and he said it was not for them to know that which only the father hath put in his own power.

3. We know after Calvary that the program with God was the church of jews and gentiles in one body. This is why they were not to be concerned about their position in the kingdom according to their covenants. Jesus never said they would not fulfill their covenant at all.

John Darby's doctrine cannot be defended, because it quickly falls apart when we look at what it claims, compared to what is actually written in God's Word.
The following is just one of many examples.

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are one in the same kingdom...


Mat_19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

There are not two separate kingdoms and two separate peoples under the New Covenant.
The people of the New Covenant are made up of all races grafted together, through faith in Christ.

You are attempting to rebuild the middle wall of separation, broken down at the Cross.

Jesus did not come to be a king, only to the nation of Israel.

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.


Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

He came about 2,000 years ago, not to offer a kingdom to the nation of Israel, but to be the Savior of the whole world.

When He returns, Christ will be the king of the whole planet, not just the nation of Israel.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

John Darby's doctrine cannot be defended, because it quickly falls apart when we look at what it claims, compared to what is actually written in God's Word.
The following is just one of many examples.

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are one in the same kingdom...


Mat_19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

There are not two separate kingdoms and two separate peoples under the New Covenant.
The people of the New Covenant are made up of all races grafted together, through faith in Christ.

You are attempting to rebuild the middle wall of separation, broken down at the Cross.

Jesus did not come to be a king, only to the nation of Israel.

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.


Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

He came about 2,000 years ago, not to offer a kingdom to the nation of Israel, but to be the Savior of the whole world.

When He returns, Christ will be the king of the whole planet, not just the nation of Israel.

.

baberean,

1. You are grasping at straws because you refuse to believe in the context.
This has nothing to do with what you call John Darby's doctrine. I don't follow John Darby but I do believe in using proper hermeneutics and proper history and how God dealt with men under covenants and in a stewardship known as a dispensation.

2. You know I do not believe in everything a dispensationalist so quit bringing up Darby or any other giving the impression that I believe in them instead of what the scripture says and proper hermeneutics.

3. The KoH is different in one physical geographical sphere of the whole universe. The KoG physical is all of the universes planets and everything else contained in it.

4. Because the KoH is contained it can be said as the KoG physical universal. The KoH is eternal and once the son turns this KoH over to the Father who gave it to him the KoG will be all in all in harmony.

5. There has to be an understanding of the KoH on earth because it is about earth and not the rest of the universe and there are differences that I will explain later but I don't have time right now to give but it will explain the differences and why they are important to understand.

6. There is only one kingdom in the church era and that is the kingdom of his dear son of who Paul said we are translated in which has to do with the spiritual KoG. Outside of that is that this geographical sphere today is in abeyance. It is not to present the kingdom reign today for no one is reigning as will be in the millennial kingdom.

7. I am not rebuilding the middle wall of separation. That is your words and not mine and not mine belief. In the kingdom we will all be one but that has no bearing on Israel and their covenants anymore than the churches covenant promises to rule and reign in other capacities of the universe that Israel as a nation basically will not have.

8. Israel rejected the new covenant and those individual jews that got saved in the early church were a part of the church and not the earthly calling of Israel for that will not come into play till the tribulation.
Christ will be over the universe which includes the earth and Israel happens to be the place where he will touch down on the Mount of Olives and he will destroy those nations of the world at Armageddon that are trying to destroy his brethren the elect Physical Israel. Isaiah 2:2-4. You have no leg to stand on in scripture or logic. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You have no leg to stand on in scripture or logic. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

You are promoting a doctrine that John Darby brought to America about 150 years ago.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught the doctrine at the time of the Revolutionary War.

The video below shows the original source of the doctrine.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You are promoting a doctrine that John Darby brought to America about 150 years ago.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught the doctrine at the time of the Revolutionary War.

The video below shows the original source of the doctrine.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

baberean,

1. I will watch the video but let it be known you are promoting a doctrine that is hermeneutically wrong and is not rightly dividing the word of truth. I could say you promote amillennialism so what. The truth is that you do not understand proper jewish truth and plain biblical scriptures from the old testament and new testament that prove the covenants of Israel are forever.

2. I have given a few scriptures that these covenants are eternal and there is not one scripture you can produce to prove otherwise. I have shown that they are eternal in destiny but are conditioned by obedience to God as a nation and I have shown scriptures that prove God has not forgotten them and he will still make the covenant good because their gifts and callings are without repentance.

3. You cannot produce one solid scripture that says Israel as a nation will not fulfill their covenant which is eternal. You cannot produce one solid scripture that say the church has taken Israel's place in their covenant of the land of Israel and more or that the church will be the leaders in the capitol of Jerusalem and from the land of Israel.

4. It is your burden to show true scripture in context that what the scriptures say that I have given is wrong. You have disagreed but largely that is it. Explain your belief about the details of the kingdom even though I most likely know what you are going to say. I'll be waiting. Jerry Kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

1. Israel is still a physical descendant of Abraham. The gentiles were never a physical descendant of Abraham and are not now. What part of this don't you understand?

Today's Nation-State of Israel is MULTI ETHNIC, MULTI RELIGIOUS, MULTI RACIAL, DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR.
The Pre Desolation HEBREW THEOCRACY of Israel was NONE of those things.
What part of that don't you understand?

11. If you think the church is going to be the nation over the kingdoms of the world and the capitol of the world explain how this will be. Jerry kelso

It already is:
Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

What part of "All POWER" don't you understand?

 

[BABerean2]

You cannot produce one solid scripture that says Israel as a nation will not fulfill their covenant which is eternal. You cannot produce one solid scripture that say the church has taken Israel's place in their covenant of the land of Israel and more or that the church will be the leaders in the capitol of Jerusalem and from the land of Israel.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (They broke the IF-Then contract.)


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(The promises were made to only 1 seed. It could not be any clearer. Paul plainly says the promises were not made to the many seeds. You are trying to replace the One Seed, Jesus Christ, with the many seeds.)


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (You are attempting to say that Paul is wrong in this verse.)


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (He is now the mediator of the New Covenant, which is based on better promises.)


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (There is only one covenant now in effect.)



Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(Here we have descriptions of Israel found in the Old Testament, applied to the Church...)
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Today's Nation-State of Israel is MULTI ETHNIC, MULTI RELIGIOUS, MULTI RACIAL, DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR.
The Pre Desolation HEBREW THEOCRACY of Israel was NONE of those things.
What part of that don't you understand?



It already is:
Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

What part of "All POWER" don't you understand?

parousia70,

1. Obviously, we are not in the tribulation yet or pre-tribulation time. The time of Jacob's trouble will not be until the 2nd half of the tribulation. Daniel 12:1, Isaiah 66:7-8, Revelation 11:2-19; Revelation 12, 13-19.
What part of Zion travailing for her children and becoming a nation born in one day in the last days do you not understand.

2. All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. God always had authority over heaven and earth. Satan still controls the governments of the world through evil and sinful men.
We are to make disciples of all nations, but this has nothing to do with ruling and reigning in the kingdom to come. 2 Timothy 2:12; if ye suffer, ye shall reign. We are learning rulership through trials and tribulations that we suffer for God. What part of context don't you understand?

3. 1 Chronicles 28; Romans 11:29, Isaiah 9:6-7; 66:7-8; Zechariah 14:16-17, 20, 21, Isaiah 2:2-4. The covenants are eternal with Israel and it is conditioned by obedience and they will have a generation that will obey from the nation and will fulfill the covenants of Abraham and David specific to Israel. Messianic believers believe in Israel's callings and covenants will be fulfilled. These are jewish christians in the church that believe in the new covenant. What part of the truth don't you understand? Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (They broke the IF-Then contract.)


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(The promises were made to only 1 seed. It could not be any clearer. Paul plainly says the promises were not made to the many seeds. You are trying to replace the One Seed, Jesus Christ, with the many seeds.)


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (You are attempting to say that Paul is wrong in this verse.)


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (He is now the mediator of the New Covenant, which is based on better promises.)


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (There is only one covenant now in effect.)



Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(Here we have descriptions of Israel found in the Old Testament, applied to the Church...)
.

1. I have already explained Jeremiah 31:34. If you want to give into real "ifs" look at verse 36 which says, "IF" those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. This shows that the Israel will eventually obey the Lord because the ordinances are forever. Prove this wrong.

2. I have already explained the context of the scriptures you have given. The problem is that you don't understand the overall context.

3. Jesus Christ is the foundational root of which no one can survive without. Romans 9:8 is true because the true Israel is the believing jew. The essence of the olive tree as the body of Christ belief which you are basically saying still doesn't dismiss the fact of Israel fulfilling their covenants in the big picture and in this context. Paul said in Romans 10:1; Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. He is talking about the nation and not the individual jew.

4. Romans 11:1 Paul ask the question, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid, For I also an an Israelite. of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Verse 2; God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Paul is talking about the nation which God foreknew. God didn't foreknow the nation of Israel just to bring the Messiah to fruition but to establish the covenant of the Abraham and David which refers to the land and the kingdom. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth will happen when Israel obeys. Paul never preached the KoH message to the church as Jesus did in the context of the jews promises of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenant.

5. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and the new covenant is built on better promises and it is the only one in covenant just like the old covenant was in force until Calvary. Hebrews 8:6-7 and Hebrews 9:16-17.

6. Galatians 6:16 can be seen in 2 ways upon the wording and some believe Galatians was originally a part of Hebrews.

7. Do you believe that Israel will be at the head of the nations? The berean bible church believes that. Are you a berean or not or something else? If you are of the new covenant theology then do you believe that Jesus taught the death, burial and resurrection message to come to God in the same sense as after the cross? Do you believe Israel will be at the head of the nations in the kingdom and if not who will be? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Do you believe Israel will be at the head of the nations in the kingdom and if not who will be?[/QUOTE]

Jesus Christ.

It is all about the Son of God, and not anything else.

He is the One Seed to whom the promises were made.

Some people say God has not fulfilled all of His promise to the Jewish people.

He sent them His Son to live a perfect sinless life, and to die a torturous death on the Cross, to pay for the sins of every Jew and every Gentile.

What more could anyone ask for?

He did not say... "It is almost finished..."

He did not say... "It is finished except for the promises to Israel..."

He said...



John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

.

 

[parousia70]

This shows that the Israel will eventually obey the Lord because the ordinances are forever. Prove this wrong.

No need to prove that wrong, but easy to prove your interpretation wrong.

Israel as a nation already obeys the lord. The ONLY National Israel to survive past AD70 in covenant with God are the Nazarenes. In times of great apostasy, Israel is carried on ONLY through the faithful remnant and not through the wicked ones. In contrast, You claim the wicked ones carried on past 70AD as God's Covenanted True Israel, instead of the faithful remnant that scripture teaches is TRUE Covenanted Israel.

 

[Hazrus]

I really don't understand the preoccupation with ethnic jews by Christians today. Surely we are all clear from Romans 11 and pretty much all of Hebrews that the Church is Israel today?

 

[BABerean2]

I really don't understand the preoccupation with ethnic jews by Christians today. Surely we are all clear from Romans 11 and pretty much all of Hebrews that the Church is Israel today?

If you want to understand it, take a look at the following sources...

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

About 150 years ago John Nelson Darby brought modern Dispensational Theology to America.
It claims there are two peoples of God and two plans of God, the Church which is God's eternal heavenly people and Israel, which is God's eternal earthly people. They also claim the Church is only a "parenthesis" in God's dealing with Israel.

The old classic version, even claims that after the pretrib removal of the Church, God will go back to dealing with Israel under the now obsolete Old Sinai covenant during a future 70th week of Daniel, by placing a manmade "gap" in Daniel chapter 9, not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

This system of interpretation has now come to dominate the evangelical Church in America, having been taught to future pastors by seminaries like Dallas Theological.

If you dare to speak against it, personal attacks will be coming in your direction...

 

[jerry kelso]

Jesus Christ.

It is all about the Son of God, and not anything else.

He is the One Seed to whom the promises were made.

Some people say God has not fulfilled all of His promise to the Jewish people.

He sent them His Son to live a perfect sinless life, and to die a torturous death on the Cross, to pay for the sins of every Jew and every Gentile.

What more could anyone ask for?

He did not say... "It is almost finished..."

He did not say... "It is finished except for the promises to Israel..."

He said...



John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

.

baberean2,

1. Jeremiah 31 was not fulfilled with the nation of Israel at Calvary because they rejected the message and they had to obey in order to receive. Matthew 4:17: Jesus said, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. This was talking about the physical kingdom reign.

2. If you don't believe in the physical kingdom for Israel at the head of the nations then you don't believe the scripture is true. That context is connected to the kingdom era of peace. The law will go out of Zion and the word of the Lord from jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

3. Even if you don't believe in the millennium as the 1st 1000 years of the kingdom you do believe in the everlasting kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Either way Israel will be at the head of the nations because Isaiah 2 has never happened yet and we still have wars and the law is not going out from Zion. Either you believe the scripture or you don't. This is as plain as the nose on your face.

4. Acts 1:6-7 the disciples asked the Lord, Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom and Jesus said It was not for them to know the times and the seasons. Even after this, Peter saw similar signs of the kingdom on the Day of Pentecost with the speaking in tongues and that is why he said it was similar to that time. If you read Joel's prophecy this happens and it has to happen with Israel, but it happens with the curse being lifted off of creation. Acts 3:19; Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the time of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Peter was seeing this signs of the kingdom and he connected it with Israel and the end times.

5. Believe the scripture when it says Israel will be at the head of the nations according to Isaiah 2:1-4 or not? Can you prove that the law has gone out of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem and that Christ has judged the nations and that there is war no more today? These things are connected with the Kingdom era and with the nation of Israel. Are you going to deny the truth of a plain statement and context of this scripture? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

No need to prove that wrong, but easy to prove your interpretation wrong.

Israel as a nation already obeys the lord. The ONLY National Israel to survive past AD70 in covenant with God are the Nazarenes. In times of great apostasy, Israel is carried on ONLY through the faithful remnant and not through the wicked ones. In contrast, You claim the wicked ones carried on past 70AD as God's Covenanted True Israel, instead of the faithful remnant that scripture teaches is TRUE Covenanted Israel.

parousia70,

1. Today Israel is still out of covenant and does not obey the Lord as a nation. Many of them are atheists and others still have the veil over their head which Paul talks about was in his day.

2. The nation of Israel obeyed the Lord and eventually went into the promised land with Joshua didn't they?

3. I never claimed the wicked ones carried on past 70AD as God's covenanted true israel instead of the faithful remnant. Why do you keep making up things I never said and accusing me of saying them. Do you mind telling me that?
The wicked ones are still physical Israel and I did say that but I didn't say they carried on as true Israel. How could they carry on as true Israel spiritually if they were not saved?

4. Isaiah 2:1-4 shows that Israel will be at the head of the nations of the world and the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. This has never happened.
The Lord will judge the nations and the people on earth will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. The caliphate of the muslims like ISIS and others are lifting up their sword all the time against many nations. War is more prevalent than ever. This shows that Isaiah was talking about the end of times and the nation of Israel will be at the head of the nations for Jerusalem is in Israel. Are you going to deny the plain statement of scripture and the context of it? Give me a break! Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

1. Today Israel is still out of covenant and does not obey the Lord as a nation. Many of them are atheists and others still have the veil over their head which Paul talks about was in his day.

None of them have any verifiable link to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.

They have no more valid a claim to that title of the re constitution of the Hebrew Nation than does Japan, or Nicaragua, or Australia.... New Guinea...Seattle....

2. The nation of Israel obeyed the Lord and eventually went into the promised land with Joshua didn't they?

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JOSHUA INTO THE PROMISED LAND!!
THE REST WERE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE IN THE WILDERNESS!!!

Did you catch that fact Jer?

The Same thing happened in the First Century!!!

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JESUS INTO THE NEW COVENANT, AND THE REST WERE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.

The Exodus from the bondage of Egypt and subsequent 40 year wandering in the desert fully pre figured the 1st century Exodus from the bondage of the Old Covenant and subsequent 40 year span leading up to the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

Instead, you have it as the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Did the disobedient, disbelieving sons follow Joshua and enter the promised land?

Did the Disobedient sons who did not follow Joshua into the land have ANY claim to the name "Israel" over and above, or even along side in par, to the faithful remnant that followed Joshua into the Land?

No?

Then how can you claim the disobedient sons who did not follow Jesus into the Promised New Covenant have any claim to the name Israel over and above, or even along side in par, to the faithful remnant who did follow Israel's Messiah the Christ?

3. I never claimed the wicked ones carried on past 70AD as God's covenanted true israel instead of the faithful remnant. Why do you keep making up things I never said and accusing me of saying them.

Your Joshua example proves otherwise.

There is no ISRAEL today apart from those who followed Christ into the promised new covenant, just as there was no Israel in Joshua's day apart from those that followed Him into the promised land.

The wicked ones are still physical Israel and I did say that but I didn't say they carried on as true Israel. How could they carry on as true Israel spiritually if they were not saved?

There is no Physical Israel, in any genetic sense, today.

 

[jerry kelso]

None of them have any verifiable link to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.

They have no more valid a claim to that title of the re constitution of the Hebrew Nation than does Japan, or Nicaragua, or Australia.... New Guinea...Seattle....



DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JOSHUA INTO THE PROMISED LAND!!
THE REST WERE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE IN THE WILDERNESS!!!

Did you catch that fact Jer?

The Same thing happened in the First Century!!!

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JESUS INTO THE NEW COVENANT, AND THE REST WERE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.

The Exodus from the bondage of Egypt and subsequent 40 year wandering in the desert fully pre figured the 1st century Exodus from the bondage of the Old Covenant and subsequent 40 year span leading up to the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

Instead, you have it as the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Did the disobedient, disbelieving sons follow Joshua and enter the promised land?



Your Joshua example proves otherwise.

Tere is no ISRAEL today apart from those who followed Christ into the promised new covenant, just as there was no Israel in Joshua's day apart from those that followed Him into the promised land.



There is no Physical Israel, in any genetic sense, today.

parousia70,

1. You don't comprehend very well. Joshua took the nation into the promised land and they were the ones that obeyed.

2. In the tribulation all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25) Zechariah 13:9 says that 2/3 of the rebels of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 will be the remnant who will come through the fire. In Revelation 12 were believers because the dragon which is satan goes to make war on them. When the 2 Witnesses are resurrected in the last of the tribulation and the remnant sees them being resurrected and glorifies God.


3. The sun clothed woman is the nation of Israel and they are protected from satan for 1260 days or 3/5 years till the end of the tribulation where they will be united together with the remnant to receive the kingdom.

4. So there will be more than the remnant receiving or believing who will receive the kingdom.
As far as no physical nation of Israel I must ask, what world do you live in? Israel is well alive and has been since 1948. The physical nation has nothing to with spiritual Israel and just because there is a spiritual Israel doesn't mean that there is not a physical nation of Israel. Quit being ridiculous.

5. By the way you still haven't answered to Isaiah 2:1-4. Try! Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

1. You don't comprehend very well. Joshua took the nation into the promised land and they were the ones that obeyed.

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JOSHUA, the rest were DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.
Prove me wrong.

2. In the tribulation all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25) Zechariah 13:9 says that 2/3 of the rebels of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 will be the remnant who will come through the fire.

So in your view that's not really ALL Israel is it, if 2/3 don't make it., Right?

As far as no physical nation of Israel I must ask, what world do you live in? Israel is well alive and has been since 1948.

Modern Secular multi ethnic Democratic Israel has no verifiable relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.

The Mormon church has just as valid a claim to be the re constitution of the pre desolation Hebrews (and it's a claim they make) as does Modern Israel.

They are both claimants without warrant.

Prove me wrong.

5. By the way you still haven't answered to Isaiah 2:1-4. Try! Jerry kelso

It speaks of the Church of course, the Israel of God, the Promised New Covenant reality.

When was the last time A Christian Church went to war with another Christian Church?

This reality only exists for those in the new covenant...for outside are dogs, sorcerers, liars, fornicators etc....

Again, you have the disobedient ones as heirs to these promises, contrary to the scriptural teaching.

 

[jerry kelso]

ONLY THE BELIEVING REMNANT FOLLOWED JOSHUA, the rest were DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.
Prove me wrong.



So in your view that's not really ALL Israel is it, if 2/3 don't make it., Right?



Modern Secular multi ethnic Democratic Israel has no verifiable relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.

The Mormon church has just as valid a claim to be the re constitution of the pre desolation Hebrews (and it's a claim they make) as does Modern Israel.

They are both claimants without warrant.

Prove me wrong.



It speaks of the Church of course, the Israel of God, the Promised New Covenant reality.

When was the last time A Christian Church went to war with another Christian Church?

This reality only exists for those in the new covenant...for outside are dogs, sorcerers, liars, fornicators etc....

Again, you have the disobedient ones as heirs to these promises, contrary to the scriptural teaching.

parousia70,

I've answered enough of your questions more than once. You answer to Isaiah 2:1-4 and prove that it has already happened or that it won't happen again. Prove that it has nothing to do with the end times. If you don't I will know you have no answer. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

I've answered enough of your questions more than once.

You have done no such thing. you have avoided every scriptural challenge I have laid before you.
I'm confident our readers can see who's view is solidly grounded in scripture and who's is not.

 

[jerry kelso]

You have done no such thing. you have avoided every scriptural challenge I have laid before you.
I'm confident our readers can see who's view is solidly grounded in scripture and who's is not.

parousia70,
Are you trying to convince yourself? I have not avoided your scriptures but you don't like my answers and that is true.
You answer to Isaiah 2:1-4 and prove that it has nothing to do with Israel as the head of the nations in the kingdom; that is if you believe that you are so solidly grounded in scripture and I am not. Jerry kelso