Philosophical arguments against the existence of God

[anonymous person]

The Earth started having earthquakes billions of years ago. How did sin cause those earthquakes?

I never said the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in earthquakes that happened 4 billion years ago.

I never said that. You are attacking a strawman.

 

[Loudmouth]

I never said the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in earthquakes that happened 4 billion years ago.

I never said that. You are attacking a strawman.

That's exactly what you said. From a previous post:

I know why earthquakes exist and what causes them.

From CARM

Sin has affected the world in that there are floods, earthquakes, storms, etc. These are the result of an imperfect world with sin running through it. When Adam fell, the world was affected by his fall. Adam represented all of the created order since he was given dominion over it by God. Therefore, when Adam rebelled, he took the world with him in his fall, and as the Scripture says, it awaits its own deliverance:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now," (Rom. 8:20-22).
​

Earthquakes have been occurring for billions of years.

 

[quatona]

I never said the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in earthquakes that happened 4 billion years ago.

I never said that. You are attacking a strawman.

Maybe you could eventually explain what you meant here, then:

I know why earthquakes exist and what causes them.

From CARM

Sin has affected the world in that there are floods, earthquakes, storms, etc. These are the result of an imperfect world with sin running through it. When Adam fell, the world was affected by his fall. Adam represented all of the created order since he was given dominion over it by God. Therefore, when Adam rebelled, he took the world with him in his fall, and as the Scripture says, it awaits its own deliverance.

So why do earthquakes exist and what causes them?

 

[anonymous person]

You have claimed that God is perfectly moral. Finding a single instance of God acting immoral disproves that the God you have defined exists.

I have shown multiple instances of God being described as acting immorally. This disproves the God you defined earlier.

1. If the God written about in the Bible is recorded as having acted immorally, then this God does not exist.
2. The God written about in the Bible is recorded as having acted immorally.
3. Therefore, this God does not exist.

This modus ponens is logically valid.

Please defend premise one and two.

 

[Loudmouth]

1. If the God written about in the Bible is recorded as having acted immorally, then this God does not exist.
2. The God written about in the Bible is recorded as having acted immorally.
3. Therefore, this God does not exist.

This modus ponens is logically valid.

Please defend premise one and two.

Already did. You agreed that God is defined as morally perfect, and omnipotent to boot.

I showed God punishing descendants for the actions of their ancestors. I also showed God calling for genocide, including the slaughter of babies. Both of these are immoral actions.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No I don't agree with your reasoning.
I see no reason to think God could have no morally sufficient reason for creating a world wherein free moral agents choose evil as opposed to good.

Also, remember that this world is not the end of God's design. It is a part of it. The end has yet to be actualized, i.e. the end wherein free moral agents live eternally with God. An existence devoid of suffering and evil and pain.

Who said anything about free moral agents?

 

[anonymous person]

Maybe you could eventually explain what you meant here, then:

So why do earthquakes exist and what causes them?

There is a distinction between the occurrence of natural events which occurred before Adam's creation and those which occurred after Adam sinned.

The shifting of tectonic plates prior to the creation of Adam (here I am thinking of the various plates being arranged and put into place by God as a part of the pre-Adamic creation process) is not the result of Adam sinning, for Adam had yet to be created.

The shifting of tectonic plates after the fall were not due to God's creative purposes, for the creation of the earth had already been completed and was indeed "good", but rather, they were the result of the world being subjected to the devastating consequences of sin.

Global Consequences
As noted above there was an initial effect of sin that afflicted the newly created earth (e.g., thorns and thistles). It is scarcely realized, however, what a cataclysmic effect the Flood of Noah’s day had upon our planet. Subterranean “fountains” yielded vast and violent explosions of water. Combined therewith was an outpouring deluge from the “windows of heaven” (Genesis 7:11). Megatons of violent upthrusts of water and debris came from the bowels of the earth. Rain descended in unimaginable torrents for forty days and nights.

The composition of the ancient earth was radically affected. Global and continental temperature zones were altered, and varying pressure systems created an environment that facilitated hurricanes and tornados. Land mass arrangements became unsettled and earthquakes followed in their wake. The violent features of today’s earth have their ultimate origins in the catastrophic events of Genesis 6-8.

There is ample geologic and archaeological evidence of an ancient earth significantly different from today’s planet. Geologists testify to the early uniform climate of the earth as revealed by the fossil record—of both plants and animals (Rehwinkel, 1951, 1-54). Even skeptics concede that at a point in the ancient past the earth had a “mild and constant climate” and “the elements of that world were in perfect balance” (Jastrow, 1977, 69).

 

[quatona]

No I don't agree with your reasoning.
I see no reason to think God could have no morally sufficient reason for creating a world wherein free moral agents choose evil as opposed to good.

Also, remember that this world is not the end of God's design. It is a part of it. The end has yet to be actualized, i.e. the end wherein free moral agents live eternally with God. An existence devoid of suffering and evil and pain.

If evil coming into being is prerequisite for God´s final task (to create a world without evil) coming to pass (which is in itself already a funny proposition ), then the existence of evil is good from God´s perspective.
Whereas if it is not necessary for creating a world without evil, your argument fails.

 

[anonymous person]

Who said anything about free moral agents?

I did obviously.

 

[quatona]

There is a distinction between the occurrence of natural events which occurred before Adam's creation and those which occurred after Adam sinned.

The shifting of tectonic plates prior to the creation of Adam (here I am thinking of the various plates being arranged and put into place by God as a part of the pre-Adamic creation process) is not the result of Adam sinning, for Adam had yet to be created.

The shifting of tectonic plates after the fall were not due to God's creative purposes, for the creation of the earth had already been completed and was indeed "good", but rather, they were the result of the world being subjected to the devastating consequences of sin.

You forgot to explain how sin makes tectonic plates move.

Global Consequences

As noted above there was an initial effect of sin that afflicted the newly created earth (e.g., thorns and thistles). It is scarcely realized, however, what a cataclysmic effect the Flood of Noah’s day had upon our planet. Subterranean “fountains” yielded vast and violent explosions of water. Combined therewith was an outpouring deluge from the “windows of heaven” (Genesis 7:11). Megatons of violent upthrusts of water and debris came from the bowels of the earth. Rain descended in unimaginable torrents for forty days and nights.

The composition of the ancient earth was radically affected. Global and continental temperature zones were altered, and varying pressure systems created an environment that facilitated hurricanes and tornados. Land mass arrangements became unsettled and earthquakes followed in their wake. The violent features of today’s earth have their ultimate origins in the catastrophic events of Genesis 6-8.

There is ample geologic and archaeological evidence of an ancient earth significantly different from today’s planet. Geologists testify to the early uniform climate of the earth as revealed by the fossil record—of both plants and animals (Rehwinkel, 1951, 1-54). Even skeptics concede that at a point in the ancient past the earth had a “mild and constant climate” and “the elements of that world were in perfect balance” (Jastrow, 1977, 69).

You still haven´t explained how sin moves tectonic plates or causes floods.

 

[Loudmouth]

There is a distinction between the occurrence of natural events which occurred before Adam's creation and those which occurred after Adam sinned.

The shifting of tectonic plates prior to the creation of Adam (here I am thinking of the various plates being arranged and put into place by God as a part of the pre-Adamic creation process) is not the result of Adam sinning, for Adam had yet to be created.

That shifting would have produced earthquakes, just as they do now.

The shifting of tectonic plates after the fall were not due to God's creative purposes, for the creation of the earth had already been completed and was indeed "good", but rather, they were the result of the world being subjected to the devastating consequences of sin.

Global Consequences

As noted above there was an initial effect of sin that afflicted the newly created earth (e.g., thorns and thistles). It is scarcely realized, however, what a cataclysmic effect the Flood of Noah’s day had upon our planet. Subterranean “fountains” yielded vast and violent explosions of water. Combined therewith was an outpouring deluge from the “windows of heaven” (Genesis 7:11). Megatons of violent upthrusts of water and debris came from the bowels of the earth. Rain descended in unimaginable torrents for forty days and nights.

The composition of the ancient earth was radically affected. Global and continental temperature zones were altered, and varying pressure systems created an environment that facilitated hurricanes and tornados. Land mass arrangements became unsettled and earthquakes followed in their wake. The violent features of today’s earth have their ultimate origins in the catastrophic events of Genesis 6-8.

There is ample geologic and archaeological evidence of an ancient earth significantly different from today’s planet. Geologists testify to the early uniform climate of the earth as revealed by the fossil record—of both plants and animals (Rehwinkel, 1951, 1-54). Even skeptics concede that at a point in the ancient past the earth had a “mild and constant climate” and “the elements of that world were in perfect balance” (Jastrow, 1977, 69).

And that is all made up.

 

[anonymous person]

If evil coming into being is prerequisite for God´s final task (to create a world without evil) coming to pass (which is in itself already a funny proposition ), then the existence of evil is good from God´s perspective.
Whereas if it is not necessary for creating a world without evil, your argument fails.

The existence of evil is permitted and God accomplishes His will through the evil free moral agents commit. This does not mean everything that happens is good. It means that God is big enough to take into account the free choices free moral agents will make and so order providence that His purposes will be accomplished while preserving our freedom.

Just because God uses something to achieve His ends doesn't make that something good. In fact, the life of Joseph who was a type and foreshadowing of Christ's and illustrates this point beautifully. Joseph had been betrayed into the hands of slave traders by his brothers and sold into slavery. God used Joseph to ultimately save the lives of many from famine and did so by allowing him to be sold into slavery. In fact Joseph told his brothers that while they meant what they did for evil, and indeed it was, God meant it for good.

Of course Christ's death at the hands of sinners is the chief example of this concept.

 

[anonymous person]

You forgot to explain how sin makes tectonic plates move.


You still haven´t explained how sin moves tectonic plates or causes floods.

I don't know. Maybe one day God will tell me or show me. If not, I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.

 

[anonymous person]

That shifting would have produced earthquakes, just as they do now.

I will take your word for it. I am not confident enough to speak about how similar the effects of the shifting of tectonic plates 4 billion years ago are with the effects of tectonic plates shifting today.

I can happily take your word that the pre-Adamic shifting produced effects similar to effects produced by tectonic shifts today. This does nothing to show that the quakes we now experience are not the result of the creation being subjected to corruption.

And that is all made up.

That's your judgment to make.

 

[Loudmouth]

I will take your word for it. I am not confident enough to speak about how similar the effects of the shifting of tectonic plates 4 billion years ago are with the effects of tectonic plates shifting today.

I can happily take your word that the pre-Adamic shifting produced effects similar to effects produced by tectonic shifts today. This does nothing to show that the quakes we now experience are not the result of the creation being subjected to corruption.

It all comes down to parsimony. We already have a natural process that has been producing earthquakes for billions of years. No need to invent a fantasy about other causes for which you have no evidence.

 

[Loudmouth]

The existence of evil is permitted and God accomplishes His will through the evil free moral agents commit.

That would be immoral. We stop criminals. It is immoral to just let a murder happen in front of you and do nothing about it, especially when stopping the murder would cost you next to no effort or harm.

 

[anonymous person]

It all comes down to parsimony. We already have a natural process that has been producing earthquakes for billions of years. No need to invent a fantasy about other causes for which you have no evidence.

The account of the fall of Adam and Eve and paradise being lost was not written to explain why we have earthquakes. I think this would go without saying.

 

[anonymous person]

That would be immoral. We stop criminals. It is immoral to just let a murder happen in front of you and do nothing about it, especially when stopping the murder would cost you next to no effort or harm.

I get what you're saying but we are not God. Plain and simple.

But that aside, we sometimes do permit suffering and evil so that some greater good can be achieved. I think that if we, being as limited as we are by virtue of our finitude can recognize the value in this, then a God who is infinite most certainly can so order providence to bring about a greater good from our evil and suffering.

 

[Loudmouth]

The account of the fall of Adam and Eve and paradise being lost was not written to explain why we have earthquakes. I think this would go without saying.

There was not a global flood a few thousand years ago. We have the geologic record to prove it.

Remember the massive earthquake and tsunami that killed so many people around the Indian ocean just a few years back? That wasn't caused by any flooding or any other such nonsense. It was caused by the steady movement of one plate being thrust under another plate. This is driven by the movement of the mantle below the crust and by the increased density of the leading edge of the plate as a result of millions of years of cooling (i.e. cold slab pull).

 

[Loudmouth]

I get what you're saying but we are not God. Plain and simple.

We don't have to be God in order to determine if an action is immoral.

But that aside, we sometimes do permit suffering and evil so that some greater good can be achieved. I think that if we, being as limited as we are by virtue of our finitude can recognize the value in this, then a God who is infinite most certainly can so order providence to bring about a greater good from our evil and suffering.

God couldn't bring about greater good without evil? Then God is not omnipotent. As shown previously, God is defined as being omnipotent. God's existence has been disproven.