Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why would anyone think that one believes by their will? Where does that come from?

The clear point is that everyone chooses to believe what they want. It's not a matter of the will. It's a matter of the "want"."

So you don't believe in free will, but you believe in free want?

There is no reason for this very silly question. Of course there is free will, and one is free to believe whatever they want, but believing doesn't come from one's will. It comes from what one wants.

The Pharisees saw the miracles. But they didn't want a Messiah. So they chose to not believe in Him. It's that simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks. You gave excellent examples of why your view of grace is cheap. There's no power to change anyone.

Unless you can show from ANY of my posts that "there's no power to change anyone", I demand an apology for such an ignorant claim.

Grace is free. That's what I said. We can't earn it or deserve it. Do you disagree with that? I wasn't speaking of changing. I was speaking of the FACT that God's grace is free. But you like to create all kinds of smokescreens.

The power to change believers comes from the power of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible clearly indicates that people resist Him, grieve Him and quench Him. In those instances, there is NO change.

It appears the problem with Calvinism is their total lack of understanding of the mechanics of spiritual growth to maturity.

Anyway, either cite from any of my posts where I've indicated that grace is cheap or apologize.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you say there is no scripture to support Calvinimsm, you are either ignorant or disingenuous.

I will ask again, prove your claim then.

Quote any verse that teaches:
Christ didn't die for everyone
God chooses who will believe (the foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election)
All believers will grow up to maturity

If you just disagree with how Calvinism uses scripture, that's a whole other thing.

No, that IS the issue. Which I've made clear throughout my posts.

 

[Hammster]

Nope.


Nope. And it's obvious that my post wasn't carefully read. I STATED that the Father, Son and Spirit are referred to as God in many Scriptures.


That's exactly what I did, and you either missed or just ignored.

There is nothing in my post to lead anyone to the conclusion that I based the Trinity on just one verse. Your charge is fallacious.

I'll try again. There is not a verse that explains or defines the Trinity. Can we agree on that?

 

[Hammster]

Unless you can show from ANY of my posts that "there's no power to change anyone", I demand an apology for such an ignorant claim.

Grace is free. That's what I said. We can't earn it or deserve it. Do you disagree with that? I wasn't speaking of changing. I was speaking of the FACT that God's grace is free. But you like to create all kinds of smokescreens.

The power to change believers comes from the power of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible clearly indicates that people resist Him, grieve Him and quench Him. In those instances, there is NO change.

It appears the problem with Calvinism is their total lack of understanding of the mechanics of spiritual growth to maturity.

Anyway, either cite from any of my posts where I've indicated that grace is cheap or apologize.

Any post where you've said that someone can believe and never grow is indicative of cheap grace.

 

[Hammster]

I will ask again, prove your claim then.

Quote any verse that teaches:
Christ didn't die for everyone
God chooses who will believe (the foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election)
All believers will grow up to maturity


No, that IS the issue. Which I've made clear throughout my posts.

I think any honest person can see that my point is valid. I'll leave it at that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll try again. There is not a verse that explains or defines the Trinity. Can we agree on that?

No I don't. There are many verses that defines the Trinity. As I have already noted, verses that defines the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as God. I do agree that the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture. But the concept is clearly communicated.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Any post where you've said that someone can believe and never grow is indicative of cheap grace.

Once again, just another vague response. "any post where…" lol

How about instead responding to each point of mine in post #332 where I explained that grace is FREE, and not cheap.

Show from Scripture where my error is. I gave actual examples of believers who failed miserably. And didn't recover.

 

[Hammster]

No I don't. There are many verses that defines the Trinity. As I have already noted, verses that defines the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as God. I do agree that the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture. But the concept is clearly communicated.

What verse says the Father, Son, and Spirit are God, and that they are one?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I will ask again, prove your claim then.

Quote any verse that teaches:
Christ didn't die for everyone
God chooses who will believe (the foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of election)
All believers will grow up to maturity


No, that IS the issue. Which I've made clear throughout my posts."

I think any honest person can see that my point is valid. I'll leave it at that.

Once again, another huge dodge. Since there aren't any verses that teach the 3 things that Calvinists believe, of course no Calvinist can provide any such verse. That was my point.

And your response re-affirms my point.

One's point is valid ONLY WHEN one can support their claims from Scripture.

Here are some verses that support my understanding of Scripture, relative to the 3 points of Calvinism:

1. Christ died for all. Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14 and 15
2. God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21
3. I've already given Biblical examples of believers who didn't grow up to maturity.

That's how it works. Provide verses that support your view. Like I just did.

ONLY WHEN one can do that is their point valid.

Lack of specific verses means their point is not valid.

 

[Hammster]

Once again, just another vague response. "any post where…" lol

How about instead responding to each point of mine in post #332 where I explained that grace is FREE, and not cheap.

Show from Scripture where my error is. I gave actual examples of believers who failed miserably. And didn't recover.

I never said believers will not fail. And I never accused you of saying that. You should look at what I actually said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What verse says the Father, Son, and Spirit are God, and that they are one?

Really? You're not aware of the verses that describe the Father as God??? And the Son is God??? And the Spirit as God???

Well, maybe we're just too far apart to even have this discussion. The NT can be easily read through in 1 month. Unless one has lost all reason, there is no reason to assume that these are different Gods. And the Bible clearly states that "God is One".

So when one comes to these verses describing the Father, Son and Spirit as God, it is clear to the reasonable that they are all God.

But since you've indicated an unawareness of verses that say that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, I see no reason to continue this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I never said believers will not fail. And I never accused you of saying that. You should look at what I actually said.

I have. And all your reponses have been vague, or tried to change the subject by asking an irrelevant question.

 

[Hammster]

Really? You're not aware of the verses that describe the Father as God??? And the Son is God??? And the Spirit as God???

Well, maybe we're just too far apart to even have this discussion. The NT can be easily read through in 1 month. Unless one has lost all reason, there is no reason to assume that these are different Gods. And the Bible clearly states that "God is One".

So when one comes to these verses describing the Father, Son and Spirit as God, it is clear to the reasonable that they are all God.

But since you've indicated an unawareness of verses that say that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, I see no reason to continue this discussion.

You should read what I actually asked.

 

[Hammster]

I have. And all your reponses have been vague, or tried to change the subject by asking an irrelevant question.

It was clear. You believe someone can be saved and never grow. Or never be obedient. Or never listen to Christ. I never said that you believe that believers will never stumble.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You should read what I actually asked.

I did. Which is why I posted what I did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was clear. You believe someone can be saved and never grow.

I proved it from Scripture.

Or never be obedient.

When did I ever say "never be obedient"? I didn't. Those who have read my posts already know that.

Or never listen to Christ. I never said that you believe that believers will never stumble.

When did I ever say "never listen to Christ"?

Seems you've made just a lot of wild assumptions. Which you cannot substantiate.

How about Demas? Paul noted he was one of his ministry team in Col 4:14 and Philemon 1:24. And then deserted him in 2 Tim 4:10.

This isn't a matter of "never" vs "always", as you're insinuating about my views. Even King Saul was obedient at the beginning of his reign. Before he failed miserably.

The assumption that all believers will grow to maturity isn't substantiated from Scripture. Or you'd have quotes the verses by now.

 

[Hammster]

I did. Which is why I posted what I did.

If you think you did, then that's the problem. You aren't comprehending my posts. I think they are pretty simple. But maybe I should try to make them more so.

 

[Hammster]

I proved it from Scripture.


When did I ever say "never be obedient"? I didn't. Those who have read my posts already know that.


When did I ever say "never listen to Christ"?

Seems you've made just a lot of wild assumptions. Which you cannot substantiate.

How about Demas? Paul noted he was one of his ministry team in Col 4:14 and Philemon 1:24. And then deserted him in 2 Tim 4:10.

This isn't a matter of "never" vs "always", as you're insinuating about my views. Even King Saul was obedient at the beginning of his reign. Before he failed miserably.

The assumption that all believers will grow to maturity isn't substantiated from Scripture. Or you'd have quotes the verses by now.

Do you believe that someone can be converted but live their entire life like they weren't and still be saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

dup.