Sabbath guidance

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68797286, member: 235244"]

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down" Is 66:23

Lev 23: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.


Also referenced - quoted on page 1 of this thread
Oct 23, 2015 #4

Acts 15
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Luke 4
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

Acts 17
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,[/QUOTE]

This verse of ISA 66 is a prophecy of the last days on earth, not in heaven,

A point long after the cross according to John in Rev 21

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down" Is 66:23

Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

saying that monthly and weekly is when mankind will gather to worship God.

Indeed - every Sabbath... and every New moon... because at that Rev 21 point - there are TWO creation events for Earth - not just the one in Genesis 1:2-2:3

details matter.

No text in the entire Bible says "from one Sabbath to another shall all come to worship - but not on Sabbath just weekly" nothing like that is found in the entire Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Lev 23: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Should we ignore that your context proves that the first day of the week was also for holy convocations?

Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Typical stunt

Nice stunt - you swapped out the first day of the yearly feast - and turned it into "first day of the week" -

The bait-and-switch you are using is less convincing when we read the actual text instead of your "first day of the week" insert.

Lev 23
5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”

Better not let "Open Heart" catch you trying out that 'stunt'

 

[disciple1]

Greetings brothers and sisters,

I'm looking for advice and recommendation for how my family should be spending our Sabbath day. I met a Christian family that literally starts Saturday evening with no tv, video games, or work until Sunday night. I felt convicted in how I spend my Sabbath day.

We attend an OPC church that has a morning and evening service which we go to and after morning service is fellowship lunch. Rarely do I have to work but sometimes I do, being military. My wife is a stay at home mom so her primary job is the home and kids. Her job is never ending. Between services and fellowship is a relaxing day, trying to rest and focus on God.

Is this sufficient? What else should we be doing? Do I hire help to relieve my wife from her work on Sunday?

You don't obey the Sabbath nor do you need to.
Romans chapter 7
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
acts chapter 13
38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be reveled.
Galatians 2:18 (CJB) Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.
complete jewish bible
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Romans 8

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Heb 11
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Rev 14:12
"the Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

 

[Cribstyl]

Lev 23: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.



Nice stunt - you swapped out the first day of the yearly feast - and turned it into "first day of the week" -

The bait-and-switch you are using is less convincing when we read the actual text instead of your "first day of the week" insert.

Lev 23
5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”

Better not let "Open Heart" catch you trying out that 'stunt'

My point is; this is exactly what you're presenting as truth. You appear to be highlighting that "holy convocation" means a day of worship. My post was to show that other days than Sabbaths were also holy convocations. You still have not shown any scriptures commanding worship on the Sabbath.

 

[Gary the Kid]

The Day was changed from the last to the first, Why??? Maybe there are 2 claiming to be God. Unless you use your street smarts the dark side will fool you every time. Some even look forward to going into the FIRE.......you know to purify.............Right......They will get out.......Tomorrow..........
Old Heaven, New Heaven, Old Earth, New Earth, Old Testament, New Testament, Old God, New God, Old Sabbath, Lords Day, Saul, Paul...........So did Jesus go to Heaven or Hell (today in Paradise) right after the cross. Choices, Choices...........Remember the Movie Passion and they showed the ugly kid with Satan...........why? Think Mel Gibson thought that little kid up........not quite...........Street Smarts.........

 

[BukiRob]

Not everything on Sabbath has to be worship. Good family activities are fine.

The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath....

The principle is to REST. If Sabbath ceases to be a delight then you are doing something wrong. It is about family and rest....

 

[Meowzltov]

The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath....

The principle is to REST. If Sabbath ceases to be a delight then you are doing something wrong. It is about family and rest....

I sooooo agree!

 

[BobRyan]

Just a small quibble here. The above refers to the "Lord's Day" not the Sabbath Day.

They are the same day - Saturday -- the 7th day of the week

According to Christ in Mark 2:28
And according to Isaiah 58:13
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, The Holy Day of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

 

[BobRyan]

Just a small quibble here. The above refers to the "Lord's Day" not the Sabbath Day.

The early Christian Church was originally no more than another branch of Judaism. They worshipped in temple and synagogue with their Jewish brothers and sisters.

That is true - hence James' statement in Acts 15

In some rare cases, they constituted the majority and were able to control the order of service, readings and such.

We never see gentiles taking over Jewish synagogue worship services or changing their day of worship to week-day-1 on any sort of weekly basis or for any synagoge

The custom arose that these Jewish-Christians would meet again on the day (our Sunday) following the Sabbath for a service on their own.

Just not in the actual Bible

 

[JackRT]

That is true - hence James' statement in Acts 15



We never see gentiles taking over Jewish synagogue worship services or changing their day of worship to week-day-1 on any sort of weekly basis or for any synagoge



Just not in the actual Bible

I was not talking about gentiles. I thought it obvious that I was speaking of the original Jewish Christians.

 

[Meowzltov]

They are the same day - Saturday -- the 7th day of the week

Wrong. We've been through all this. Sigh*

 

[BobRyan]

No - in fact I am right.

We have indeed been through all of this and it was proven and found to be irrefutable.

sigh*

 

[BobRyan]

Just a small quibble here. The above refers to the "Lord's Day" not the Sabbath Day.

The early Christian Church was originally no more than another branch of Judaism. They worshipped in temple and synagogue with their Jewish brothers and sisters. In some rare cases, they constituted the majority and were able to control the order of service, readings and such. However, in most cases they were a minority and could not insist on their own readings or rituals. The custom arose that these Jewish-Christians would meet again on the day (our Sunday) following the Sabbath for a service on their own. Tensions rose within the Jewish community until about AD90 when the rabbinical council of Jamniah decided upon the scriptures that would be permissible for use in synagogue services. This effectively ended Christian participation in Sabbath synagogue worship. They did however in most cases continue the tradition of the Sunday services. This eventually became the norm and was in fact made law by Constantine. In due course theology was invented to justify the change.

I was not talking about gentiles. I thought it obvious that I was speaking of the original Jewish Christians.

You stated that these early Christians were using the term "Lord's Day" for week day 1 - -when no Bible text supports it.

And you argue this idea for those early Christians " They did however in most cases continue the tradition of the Sunday services" -- when in fact we see no sunday-after-sunday services at all in the NT

 

[faroukfarouk]

Greetings brothers and sisters,

I'm looking for advice and recommendation for how my family should be spending our Sabbath day. I met a Christian family that literally starts Saturday evening with no tv, video games, or work until Sunday night. I felt convicted in how I spend my Sabbath day.

We attend an OPC church that has a morning and evening service which we go to and after morning service is fellowship lunch. Rarely do I have to work but sometimes I do, being military. My wife is a stay at home mom so her primary job is the home and kids. Her job is never ending. Between services and fellowship is a relaxing day, trying to rest and focus on God.

Is this sufficient? What else should we be doing? Do I hire help to relieve my wife from her work on Sunday?

Hi; in the end part of the issue is the extent to which the individual Christian feels convicted, ultimately because of dispensational truth. While some people teach that the believer is under the law, that there is little significant difference between Israel and the church, others would strong hold in the light of many Scriptures that the believer is actually not under the law and the Sabbath (gloriously acknowledging the Lord Jesus as the firstfruits of them that slept is another matter!). Hebrews 7.12 says that the law was changed and Hebrews 7.19 says that what we now have is better than the law.

And so some people won't even use an oven on a Lord's Day (which is not the Jewish Sabbath in any case) and instead eat cold food, in case the oven uses electricity and someone at a power station has to work.

And others feel that cooking for the family and friends after a church service is a great, God honoring way to show love and hospitality.

And some people won't look at TV on a Sunday.

And others have derived benefit from TV videos of Adrian Rogers and others ministering to profit.

And some people feel that policing other people's dress codes and jewelry is their great mission in life.

And others will happily receive their faith based tattoo if their artist is free on a Sunday.

The issue is not ramming the law down other people's throats.

The issue is God honoring edification.

Romans 14 is the believer's great charter of liberty. Not to abuse it. But to use liberty for God's glory as the Lord individually convicts.

God bless your family.

 

[BobRyan]

Man made tradition says that God's commandments can be ignored/bent/edited/downsized/tweaked but Christ claims that sola-scriptura testing will easily debunk that idea.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Sticking with "sola scriptura" then ... the only day for the Lord's Day -- is "the Holy Day of the Lord" Is 58:13 the "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

Notice that if you claim that you must honor your parents just as God said in Exodus 20:13 - no one calls it "legalism". But if you claim that Ex 20:8-11 remains unbent and refused to delete/edit/modify the Word at that point - well then every word-editing word-bending idea known to man may well show up claiming that NOT bending God's word would be wrong/sin/legalism/denying grace.

How instructive that even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" admit that the Sabbath Commandment still applies to the saints and has been applicable since Eden.

 

[Bob S]

Man made tradition says that God's commandments can be ignored/bent/edited/downsized/tweaked but Christ claims that sola-scriptura testing will easily debunk that idea.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Sticking with "sola scriptura" then ... the only day for the Lord's Day -- is "the Holy Day of the Lord" Is 58:13 the "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

Notice that if you claim that you must honor your parents just as God said in Exodus 20:13 - no one calls it "legalism". But if you claim that Ex 20:8-11 remains unbent and refused to delete/edit/modify the Word at that point - well then every word-editing word-bending idea known to man may well show up claiming that NOT bending God's word would be wrong/sin/legalism/denying grace.

How instructive that even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" admit that the Sabbath Commandment still applies to the saints and has been applicable since Eden.

Hi Bob, I have been going through all the posts in this thread and what Gil would like to know is how he should observe Sunday. He didn't ask for your proof texts Sabbath Bible study, but since you have stated your "proof texts" PTs over and over in the thread it behooves me to rebut them so as to not cause Gil to believe things that are not the real truth.

Lets start with Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

This is one of the favorite PTs of SDAs and to the unfamiliar would seem to be what you try to make it. The fact is that John didn't put a "10" in front of commandments. This is so with all but the SDA OT references and the writings before the New Covenant. In fact John tells us, without any doubt, in another letter just what God's commandments for Christians are 1JN3:

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

So my brother, your PTs concerning commandments are nowhere, in the writings after the Cross, refer to the 10. Commandments now refer to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

In 2Cor 3:7-11 Paul establishes John's statement in 1Jn3. Christians are not subject to the 10. We have the greater law of Love. 2Cor3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! The 10 have been replaced with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The 10 commandments, given only to Israel, were temporary until Jesus. Gal 3: 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. You have no bases to tell Christians they have to observe any day.


All of my study is neatly tied up with Jesus statement in Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you have any idea what Jesus was saying? Well, SDAs should take heed because what you are doing demanding that all of us have to keep the law given to Moses. There were 613 laws in the old covenant. Jesus said not one jot or one tittle would disappear from the law. Adventists must believe not all has been fulfilled because you demand only keeping the 10 plus the clean meat laws and your modified false tithing system. Either you believe in keeping all the law or you believe Jesus fulfilled the law and we are now under the New covenant of Grace and we observe what is written in JN3, the Lord's Supper, spreading the Gospel to all the World and not forsaking assembling ourselves together.

I pray this helps you and any other person who is willing to take the time to study it. In Christ, Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob, I have been going through all the posts in this thread and what Gil would like to know is how he should observe Sunday. He didn't ask for your proof texts Sabbath Bible study

"Sabbath Guidance" may not be a request for the Bible study on the actual Bible Sabbath in your thinking -- but that cannot be said of all of us here on this board.

I think we all can see that point clearly.

Greetings brothers and sisters,

I'm looking for advice and recommendation for how my family should be spending our Sabbath day. I met a Christian family that literally starts Saturday evening with no tv, video games, or work until Sunday night. I felt convicted in how I spend my Sabbath day.

You could argue that he is talking bout "his own" man-made-tradition "Sabbath day" in saying "my Sabbath day" - and not "GOD's Sabbath day" -- not "the Bible Sabbath" -- which does work since he is talking about week-day-1 as if that is what the Bible was talking about.

But I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that a discussion on the actual BIBLE teaching about Sabbath was requested and not simply "making stuff up" as we go.

 

[BobRyan]

Lets start with Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

This is one of the favorite PTs of SDAs and to the unfamiliar would seem to be what you try to make it.

It is possible I suppose that you are trying to quote something I posted just then. Not sure where.

I usually quote Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" - but I have no objection to those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The "Commandments of God" according to Romans 7 and James 2 do in fact include the TEN Commandments as illustrated by Paul in Eph 6:2 -- this is irrefutable.

In fact John tells us, without any doubt, in another letter just what God's commandments for Christians are 1JN3:

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

John tells us that LOVE for God and for fellow Christians - is shown by "KEEPING God's Commandments" this is HOW we know that we LOVE God and love others.

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The point remains.

In 2Cor 3:7-11 Paul establishes John's statement in 1Jn3. Christians are not subject to the 10.

1 John 3 is not helping your case against the Commandments of God - the LAW of God.

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

All of my study is neatly tied up with Jesus statement in Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you have any idea what Jesus was saying? In the remainder of that chapter Jesus always MAGNIFIES the LAW in each example He gives of it - never downsizes/deletes it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bob S]

It is possible I suppose that you are trying to quote something I posted just then. Not sure where.

I usually quote Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" - but I have no objection to those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The "Commandments of God" according to Romans 7 and James 2 do in fact include the TEN Commandments as illustrated by Paul in Eph 6:2 -- this is irrefutable.



John tells us that LOVE for God and for fellow Christians - is shown by "KEEPING God's Commandments" this is HOW we know that we LOVE God and love others.

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The point remains.




1 John 3 is not helping your case against the Commandments of God - the LAW of God.

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

All of my study is neatly tied up with Jesus statement in Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you have any idea what Jesus was saying? In the remainder of that chapter Jesus always MAGNIFIES the LAW in each example He gives of it - never downsizes/deletes it.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob, Sorry I confused you with Rev 12. I didn't look to confirm chapters 12 or 14. both are referring to commandments. Both do not have a 10 in the verse, so that makes it an assumption when people say it is referring to the 10. As I wrote in my post John is telling us in 1Jn 3 what the commandments Christians are subject to: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

John it in those verses in chapter 3 nails in down as to how we are to relate to Jesus will. He completely is in harmony with Paul's writings concerning the law. In fact this is what clinched it for me when I was a SDA. We can debate over Col 2, Paul's attending Sabbath services and many other questionable verses, but 1Jn is as plain as the nose on my face. When John writes commandments he is referring to 1Jn3. The early Christians knew that they were not under the old Covenant that was given only to the Israelites. Paul wrote in 2Cor 3 that the 10 Commandments were temporary. How can anyone who has had this explanation deem it any other way. A person must be brainwashed beyond help. All we can do is pray for them.

Now to James. I was very confused about James as are SDAs until I was asked to teach James in our Sunday School class. My study had me going back to Paul's writings concerning works. Was the Bible contradicting itself? The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Paul's writings were dealing with works of the law. James, on the other hand was referring to works as in good deeds. Faith without good deeds is dead. Feeding the famished is not a direct command from the law. It is a result of loving our fellow man and providing good deeds. The wonderful works that SDAs do in their hospitals around the World are not works of the law. Those works are done because SDAs love their fellow man.

I contend that In chapter 2 of James he is referring to the Royal Law as being our love for our fellow man and not the 10 commandments that has nothing to do with love. Read them. They were God's instructions to the Israelites about duty. The commands to love are found in the Book of the Law in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Israelites didn't have to love in order to keep the 10. I don't have to love someone in order not to steal from them.

You tell me I am losing my case because Jn 3 is telling us that sin is transgression of the law. What law brother? As you can read John didn't leave us helpless as to what he meant. Law and commandments are interchangeable. Read Deuteronomy 6:1-3

If as you seem to be suggesting "law" means the old covenant law then you have to deal with 613 laws ( as per Hebrew scholars). Lets be reasonable here. In Acts 15 gentiles who never were under the old covenant law were being instructed as their new Christian duty to: abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. From all of those 613 commands in that council there were only 4 things required. of them. We have to be very careful as to what we write and make sure we are referring to the truth.

If you are referring to sin as transgressing the 10 commandments then you are in deeper trouble. Would not trampling the law of love be a sin? How about abortion of a living baby,anger, fraud, blasphemy, and etc.? Sin is the transgression of the law of love, the Royal law. This is the greatest law. It contains no rituals like Sabbath observance, feast days, new moons or any of the rules given only to the Israelites.

Thanks for the debate I pray this helps you to see the other side of the story. In Chris's love, Bob