Hyperdoxy, What is IT? How to avoid it?

[Orthodoxjay1]

What is Hyperdoxy? I heard Converts are usually very much Hyper when they come into the faith. I ask because the last thing I want to do is alienate my church by trying to be "more Greek than the Greek". Plus I also don't want to alienate my family by being a bit pushy, all up in their faces about my new found faith, and looking like a hipster with a long beard, wearing "ethnic clothes" who hasn't bathed in a while, lol, at least that what people told me that crazy converts who become Hyperdox are like. So what is Hyperdoxy? and how to avoid it? I guess one good thing going for me is I'm a really introverted person offline and really shy, so being pushy I can't see myself like that.

 

[GregConstantine]

First of all, when you become Orthodox, you are not nor should you become Greek, or Russian, or any other ethnicity you're not. I've seen some converts do this, and quite frankly, it is pathetic.

One thing I tell anyone who ask this question is to Take Your Time. I cannot emphasize that enough. One of the worst things that can happen is someone converting too quickly. Go to as many services as you can. Develop relationships with cradle Orthodox people (I cannot emphasize this enough either), and develop a relationship with the priest of the parish you are attending. Do not assume you should read everything there's is to read about Orthodoxy. Do not get into arguments or try to persuade anyone to become Orthodox. Be still, be quiet. Say your daily prayers. If others are giving you a hard time, just sit there and listen. Resist the urge to argue back. And, lastly, do not rely on the internet to learn and grow in your faith!

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Thanks Greg for the advice, I don't ever plan on being Greek, Russian, Arab, etc. I respect them but I'm loyal to America in the end, despite my concerns for where it is heading. I have also grown pretty close to some cradles in the church, my sterotypes of them have been destroyed by getting to know them. The cradles have the same concerns, goals, dreams, family issues like the rest of us because they are human afterall. As far as the priest goes I have grown close to him, our church is really lucky to have him and his family join our church this past summer. I haven't converted yet, Father asked if I wanted to once his family was settled in his new place. Thanks again Greg awesome advice.

 

[Nikti]

I believe the hyperdoxy is a symptom of what is called covertitis... [emoji23]

I have been warned numerous times of this as an enthusiastic inquirer but best advice as Greg pointed out is to take your time. Let all the initial hyper enthusiasm and zeal for your new faith or church pass before making rash lifestyle choices (with exception to sin of course, work on getting rid of that always [emoji6])
Repentance and life in Christ is a life long process, best experienced outside of over emotional(or over zealous) or over intellectual perspectives.

Just be cool bro. [emoji106]

Ps: lol I'm sorry my advice really sucks haha I'm not functioning on much sleep lately and this post made me chuckle a bit because I get those hyperdox tendencies as well!

God bless

 

[gzt]

What is Hyperdoxy? I heard Converts are usually very much Hyper when they come into the faith. I ask because the last thing I want to do is alienate my church by trying to be "more Greek than the Greek". Plus I also don't want to alienate my family by being a bit pushy, all up in their faces about my new found faith, and looking like a hipster with a long beard, wearing "ethnic clothes" who hasn't bathed in a while, lol, at least that what people told me that crazy converts who become Hyperdox are like.

I think you've gotten a good handle on a few of the things.

I think one important way to avoid hyperdoxy is to listen ten times more than you speak for the first several years after you become Orthodox. It's also nice to expose yourself to all sorts of Orthodox parishes and all sorts of Orthodox Christians so you don't have just one idea of what "piety" looks like. There's an enormous diversity in Orthodoxy even as we are very strict and precise about some things. It's important not to think that you know everything there is to know and there's only one right way when all you really know is one particular local tradition or just one thinker. There is such richness in Orthodoxy and while it's tempting to speak as if you know for certain, things are hard. We're all fools along the way, so one must acknowledge one's lacks when formulating opinions rather than, say, judging others with strictness.

Let's get concrete, since people get very uneasy when people start to talk like that. Sometimes people convert and think that nearly all Orthodox Christians follow the fast with all strictness and that if you don't, you're modern or not pious or whatever. And you might never have a reason to be disabused of that notion because pious Orthodox Christians don't talk about their fasting discipline. But, you know, a lot of good and pious Orthodox Christians were raised not keeping or barely keeping the fasts, perhaps they only did Lent and did it by not eating meat, or maybe they did Fridays throughout the year, too, and they're not changing now, they're old. Or maybe you find that, horror of horrors, the people around you still eat cheese. Or never bother with oil. Or just go about it as best they can and don't talk about it. The hyperdox thing is to get bothered by this. The pious Orthodox thing is to do the best you can, don't look at what others are doing, and forget about it.

 

[Isaac32]

Hyperdoxy can come in many forms, from trying to systematize every jot and tittle of the faith to judging your fellow Orthodox brothers and sisters harshly because "they aren't doing it right!" It can also manifest as a material obsession with "orthodox" things, i.e. decorating one's room with the Byzantine or Russian flag, feeling that one has to support Vladimir Putin, or only wearing shirts ordered from "Death to the World."

 

[gzt]

One thing about hyperdoxy, you know, I've seen some convert hyperdox sometimes badmouth, like, "lax" "cradles" - you know, the ones who show up once a week most weeks, are apparently loose about fasting, don't know how many years the canonical penance for fornication is according to The Rudder... Anyway, five years later, that "lax" person is still showing up at church like they have for the last 40 years and the rigid convert is gone. Now, this isn't what happens to all the hyperdox, but it's a narrative I've seen play out a few times.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This has been interesting to read. Some great points here. I'm not far enough along to offer "advice" so I didn't post.

I think visiting different parishes and jurisdictions is one of the best suggestions. I'm limited here, but in traveling I took every opportunity I could to do so. And those kinds of differences seem to be the source of a lot of the issues in Orthodoxy that converts might be tempted to latch onto.

My biggest struggle - and I really think it's almost impossible to avoid if one is in a situation like mine - has to do with conversations with non-Orthodox Christians. It is not so bad outside my household. Many attacked my new faith and I just tried to reply gently. But within my home, we have long had faith as our main topic of conversation, and I was the only one interested, my husband was hostile to the idea, and so the temptation to share what is good was overwhelming. I hear the same struggle from many who are in the early stages of conversion. If others bring the conversation to you, other than giving short answers and acknowledging what they have right at the same time, or offering reading if it's accepted, I don't know what to say. But it's probably best to refrain from trying to "share" ... though I myself found that very, very difficult.

I meet a few that come across as "Hyperdox" on Facebook. That's about the only place I see them. It's usually in bashing some of the variations that can be found in jurisdictions or between individuals (like fasting or matters of piety), bashing their parish or priest for not properly following some canon they've become aware of, thinking the cradles are too lax, and more rarely embracing some nationalism or ethnicity to the point of silliness.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

One thing about hyperdoxy, you know, I've seen some convert hyperdox sometimes badmouth, like, "lax" "cradles" - you know, the ones who show up once a week most weeks, are apparently loose about fasting, don't know how many years the canonical penance for fornication is according to The Rudder... Anyway, five years later, that "lax" person is still showing up at church like they have for the last 40 years and the rigid convert is gone. Now, this isn't what happens to all the hyperdox, but it's a narrative I've seen play out a few times.

Sadly in my short time at church, I have already seen this take place. A covert couple I know was really hyper about the faith traveling from this area going to another Church "because it under the old calendar, it Traditional yet canonical", again these were great folks and not not jerks in anyways. However I couldn't help but realize they started keeping in contact less and less, and haven't been showing up much to any weekly events like they use to, plus started complaining about travel. I haven't heard from them or seen them around. It seems like something about being hyper causes the convert to eventually become disappointed, and they eventually revert back to their old heterodox faiths or in many cases sadly become Atheists or non-Christian all-together, while most of the cradle remain for life.

I guess one advice on my own that I just thought of is don't have a romanticized view that it's like the polemical books make it seem like, as if everyone is a holy lay-monastic and there never any problems within the Church.

 

[gzt]

@Kylissa Your last paragraph reminded me of something.

The Elder Aimilianos of Simonopetra Monastery said, "If you can't become saints, at least be gracious".

 

[~Anastasia~]

I meet a few that come across as "Hyperdox" on Facebook. That's about the only place I see them. It's usually in bashing some of the variations that can be found in jurisdictions or between individuals (like fasting or matters of piety), bashing their parish or priest for not properly following some canon they've become aware of, thinking the cradles are too lax, and more rarely embracing some nationalism or ethnicity to the point of silliness.

@Kylissa Your last paragraph reminded me of something.

The Elder Aimilianos of Simonopetra Monastery said, "If you can't become saints, at least be gracious".

Hmmmmmmm.

I'm not quite sure how to take that, gzt?

I don't mind criticism, so if it's meant that way I'm not whining. But I tend to seek out any errors I make (and hope I find them!) so my first inclination is that I'm not being gracious in reporting this. I'm not sure if that's what you mean, though.

 

[gzt]

I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing the hyperdox - it's advice for them! Rather than bashing jurisdictions (etc), they need to remember to be gracious.

 

[gzt]

I do see now how that could have been taken as a rebuke - ouch!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess one advice on my own that I just thought of is don't have a romanticized view that it's like the polemical books make it seem like, as if everyone is a holy lay-monastic and there never any problems within the Church.

I think this is good too. I think maybe it's good that I met a great variety of people - mostly cradles, but with "real" pasts, became aware of issues within the parish, and know a few who are quick to tell me they are "not good Orthodox" and why.

I suppose I could have been scandalized, but the truth is that the Church is a hospital for sinners, as they say, not a museum of Saints. I so much enjoy reading the Saints, and I know some well on that pathway too, but I think it's good to realize there are all kinds there.

But a new convert probably shouldn't attend a parish council meeting or a Philoptochos meeting too soon.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I do see now how that could have been taken as a rebuke - ouch!

Lol, don't feel bad.

I'm getting a very thick skin on such things (I'm a substitute teacher, lol) and I really DO try to seek out my own mistakes, so I try to appreciate criticism. There was no "ouch" for me, just trying to find my mistake.

"Silliness" might have been too strong a word. Or maybe not.

Thanks for the clarification, and you've got some very useful posts in this thread. I wish I'd thought to ask when I was newly converting (or maybe I did, but it's still good to read and think on!).

 

[gzt]

You're quite right to call it silliness.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

But a new convert probably shouldn't attend a parish council meeting or a Philoptochos meeting too soon.

Okay I did get stuck in a parish council meeting, I was truthfully there for the food lol. I dread ever being on the Parish council, it not bad and everyone was professional, It just I can tell already that it would burn me out, crunching the math on the bills alone is a headache. Now what is a philoptochous meeting?

 

[gzt]

re: parish council. On the one hand, it's good to have it de-romanticized a little: part of what the parish does is pay the bills, decide how to spend money, etc. It's not all "noetic phronema". But here's the secret on the bills: nobody does the math but the treasurer, the rest just glance it and say, "Ah, oh, yes, numbers."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe our parish is a little more "involved". And what I was actually thinking of was the General Assembly - the Parish Council does indeed appear more sedate (I'm not on it - just been in the fellowship hall sometimes during the meeting).

But the discussion of some of the actions of the Parish Council, election particulars, as well as general decisions affecting the parish (usually financial ones) - can get a bit heated.

Philoptochos is a women's group organized for charity and to benefit the parish, etc. I think I understand the meaning of the word "scandalized" after the last meeting I attended. I'm happy to help out with labor, but I've decided that for now I'm not much inclined to the meeting/discussion/voting/leadership end of it.

It could be the personalities involved. I'm told Greeks* are "strong women" and there is the added fact that most of them have decades of history with one another. Maybe not all parishes are like this. I myself do better in small groups or one-on-one. It's just not good for my spiritual efforts to become embroiled in such things.

*Though we also have strong German and Ethiopian presence. So I don't think it's fair to completely blame ethnicity.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I got to be present for the Chrismation of member who'd been hanging around the Orthodox Church for 28 years before formally joining - I think I'm inclined to be the same way.