Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

I'm proposing that belief apart from God working in us does not save. Some on here promote cheap grace. There's no change in a person, but heck, they believed for one second, so they are saved regardless. So yes, we are justified by faith. But without a new heart, we won't have saving faith. It will just be like the two middle soils.

There are NO verses anywhere in the Bible that teach this theory. If I'm wrong, then prove it by citing them.

 

[klutedavid]

Firs off, do you believe God takes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh?

Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so yes I would agree with your statement.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@Hammster I lost your post, but this reply is for you.

And this phrase "cheap grace" is demeaning to Jesus Christ who died to give us grace, and it wasn't cheap nor was it easy. I think that phrase is offensive and should not be used by any Christian.

He uses that offensive phrase specifically for those who understand God's free grace. I think it comes from his horrible misunderstanding of what grace is all about.

Those who truly understand God's grace wouldn't even think of using such an adjective. He chooses to use the adjective pejoratively. He always chooses his words carefully.

 

[EmSw]

Why would one completely dismiss what Jesus said, which I provided? Those verses tell us WHEN one receives eternal life. Why are you dodging that?

Oh, I didn't dodge it; I gave you what belief is, but you had rather have it your way. Many have wanted their way, so no surprise here.

Of course. I never suggested otherwise.

And what is believing from the heart mean to you?

So, how does one cleanse his heart? Scripture, please.

Really FG2??? Let's try these passages:

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Matthew 23
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

What is clear to me is how you've ignored or dismissed Jesus' clear words in John. Please stop trying to pit Jesus' words against each other.

What Jesus said is very clear to me; tell me how one with an unclean heart can genuinely believe the words of Jesus? Those with unclean hearts are full ALL uncleanness. Jesus said out of the heart proceeds lies and blasphemies; how does one believe Jesus with lies, blasphemies, and ALL uncleanness coming forth from his heart?

You'll have to ask such a "one". The Bible is clear about those who "can't hear". They've closed their eyes and ears to Him. They refuse to believe, which clearly proves it's a choice.

Do you hear and understand the words of Jesus in Luke 10:28?

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Did Jesus not say 'DO THIS' and you shall live? What are men to do in order to live? Does this ring true in your heart, or, would you rather have it another way?

So, still pitting Jesus against Himself, huh? That's not what He said at all.

Wow FG2, do you read only what is delightful to you? Maybe you should read and understand Luke 10:25-28. This is exactly what Jesus said about inheriting eternal life by keeping the commandments.

Because of the verses I gave, it's obvious who isn't believing what Jesus said.

Do you believe one should STRIVE to enter the narrow gate which leads to eternal life?

Of course all who have believed will have eternal life in eternity, which you call "the world to come". But Jesus was very clear about HAVING eternal life WHEN one believes. Which it seems you've rejected outright.

This is not what I called it; it is what Jesus called it.

No, it's fully trusting in what He did you you.

Maybe I should ask where Jesus said this. I have never read where Jesus said to fully trust in what He did for us.

Because Jesus SAID one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, I understand what He meant about "inheriting eternal life" by keeping commandments.

What is your understanding of inheriting eternal life by keeping His commandments? Is keeping His commandments optional for inheriting eternal life, or is it mandatory?

Do you believe Jesius when He said one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes? That's the real issue.

Yes I do! And I also believe in keeping His commandments to inherit eternal life, thus showing my love for Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Long passage, I know. But it's important to see it all.

When Paul said we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, he said its God who works in you. There is a "therefore" in there, though, that tends to get overlooked.

Which tense of 'salvation' was Paul referring to here? Our salvation involves 3 tenses:

1. Past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. Which is justification.
2. Present tense: saved from the power of sin. Which is sanctification.
3. Future tense: saved from the presence of sin. Which is glorifiation.

So, which tense was Paul referring to in Phil 2:12?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, I didn't dodge it; I gave you what belief is, but you had rather have it your way. Many have wanted their way, so no surprise here.

No, I'd rather have it the Bible's way. And your posts clearly are trying to pit Jesus' words against each other.

And what is believing from the heart mean to you?

The phrase tells us where our action of believing comes from. Plain and simple.

Really FG2??? Let's try these passages:

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Matthew 23
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

OK, what does it mean to clean your own heart?

What Jesus said is very clear to me; tell me how one with an unclean heart can genuinely believe the words of Jesus?

I don't think I can relate to your view with an answer until I understand what you think it means to clean your own heart.

Those with unclean hearts are full ALL uncleanness. Jesus said out of the heart proceeds lies and blasphemies; how does one believe Jesus with lies, blasphemies, and ALL uncleanness coming forth from his heart?

I'm withholding an answer until I get an answer from you.

Do you hear and understand the words of Jesus in Luke 10:28?

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Did Jesus not say 'DO THIS' and you shall live? What are men to do in order to live? Does this ring true in your heart, or, would you rather have it another way?

As I said, I'd rather have it the Bible's way.

Wow FG2, do you read only what is delightful to you?

What kind of snarky comment is this?

Maybe you should read and understand Luke 10:25-28. This is exactly what Jesus said about inheriting eternal life by keeping the commandments.

And, once again trying to pit Jesus' own words against each other.

Do you believe one should STRIVE to enter the narrow gate which leads to eternal life?

Sure, as a figure of speech.

What is your understanding of inheriting eternal life by keeping His commandments? Is keeping His commandments optional for inheriting eternal life, or is it mandatory?

I need to know what you think "inheriting eternal life" means to you before I can answer this question.

Yes I do! And I also believe in keeping His commandments to inherit eternal life, thus showing my love for Him.

Seems your view is salvation is faith plus works. Correct?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't say grace was cheap. You should find the post. You'll see what my point is.

I didn't say that you said grace was cheap.

I said that you called it cheap grace. See post #272 which is where you used this term. I don't think any Christian should ever use this term because it doesn't insult another, IMHO. What it really does is insult God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When Paul said we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, he said its God who works in you. There is a "therefore" in there, though, that tends to get overlooked.

In the verses prior, Paul explains how Jesus didn't use His diety to get by. He said He didn't count equality with God something to be grasped (used). So what did He do? He relied on God's power. He humbled Himself. He became a servant. So the "therefore" is telling us that if Christ relied on God (the Spirit), then we should too. That's the fear and trembling and God working in us.

When Paul talks about working out our salvation he is not talking about the believers. They have already received salvation.

Your second paragraph.

Of course we need to rely on God. How is that working out our salvation? Only those who have Jesus can be spiritual, so then how would we be working out our salvation in being like Christ is to the Father? That does not make sense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is no process of being born again. There's nothing in Romans 6 to suggest that. I explained what was being said. You've ignored it because of this nonsense. So be it.

If you want to continue in your belief that faith is something we do in the flesh, there's obviously nothing I can do to correct you.

There is a process to being born again, you do not see it because it is Christ that is doing it. Just like us receiving the Holy Spirit, we cannot tell the moment, but we know that we have received it.

You say there is nothing in Romans 6 that describes what happens when we are born again spiritually in Christ.

How do you interpret Romans 6:3-12? I'd like to hear the detailed version if there is one

 

[St_Worm2]

When Paul talks about working out our salvation he is not talking about the believers. They have already received salvation.

Your second paragraph.

Of course we need to rely on God. How is that working out our salvation? Only those who have Jesus can be spiritual, so then how would we be working out our salvation in being like Christ is to the Father? That does not make sense.

Hi Sister, actually, I think St. Paul is talking directly to believers in the verses in question. He says:

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." ~Phil 2:12-13
​

Just look at who the Apostle is addressing , "my beloved", those who "have always obeyed", those who are already saved, "your salvation", and those who God "is at work in". These are things we would never say to or about non-Believers.

St. Paul is instructing the "Christians" at Philippi to "work out" their salvation (not "work at" or "work for" or "work up" their salvation). When we "work out" our bodies, we work out something that we are already in possession of, and so it is with our "salvation" (which encompasses justification, sanctification, and glorification ). Justification is an act accomplished by God alone, but in sanctification, we work in synergy with Him (Philippians 1:6) as we grow in Christ.

Merry Christmas,
David

 

[sdowney717]

Hi Sister, actually, I think St. Paul is talking directly to believers in the verses in question. He says:

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." ~Phil 2:12-13
​

Just look at who the Apostle is addressing , "my beloved", those who "have always obeyed", those who already possess salvation, "your salvation", and those who God "is at work in". These are not terms we associate with non-Believers.

St. Paul is instructing the "Christians" at Philippi to "work out" their salvation (not "work at" or "work for" or "work up" their salvation). When we "work out" our bodies, we work out something that we are already in possession of, yes, so it is with our "salvation" (which encompasses justification, sanctification, and glorification ). Justification is an act accomplished by God alone, but we work in synergy with Him in sanctification, as we grow in Christ.

Merry Christmas,
David

Most assuredly, Paul writes this to saved persons.
It is an awesome thing to have God at work within you, He is holy not common, we should reverence Him in all our ways.
Fear and trembling, Paul is saying how very active God is at work, and things could go smoothly or rather more roughly for us depending on how we live out our life in the body and then afterwards the judgement day and the rewards or lack of rewards.

 

[EmSw]

No, I'd rather have it the Bible's way. And your posts clearly are trying to pit Jesus' words against each other.

Those with understanding have no problem with the two passages. They fit very nicely together.

The phrase tells us where our action of believing comes from. Plain and simple.

Which is?

OK, what does it mean to clean your own heart?

Rid yourself of the evils within. Cast them away and make ourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

I don't think I can relate to your view with an answer until I understand what you think it means to clean your own heart.

It's not that difficult FG2; Ridding ourselves of sin is a theme throughout the Bible.

I'm withholding an answer until I get an answer from you.

I don't think I've seen you at a loss for words.

As I said, I'd rather have it the Bible's way.

If Jesus said to 'DO THIS and you will live', is this not the Bible's way?

Is it also the Bible's way to cleanse ourselves, cast away iniquity, flee sin, and overcome evil.

What kind of snarky comment is this?

I'm just seeking the truth from you.

And, once again trying to pit Jesus' own words against each other.

It makes perfect sense to me. You have yet to explain what Jesus meant when He said, 'DO THIS and live'.

Sure, as a figure of speech.

A figure of speech? Really? I guess I'll ask what strive means to you.

I need to know what you think "inheriting eternal life" means to you before I can answer this question.

If you inherit a million dollars, do you receive it immediately?

Seems your view is salvation is faith plus works. Correct?

Trying to shame me will not work. Remember, 'DO THIS' and you will inherit eternal life. Also remember, 'DO THIS' is keeping the commandments.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then you have a problem. Scripture says that we cannot please God in the flesh. Believing is something that pleases God. In fact, the only things we do that please God are things done for His glory. And the only way we can do that is by Christ being in us. This is why it's biblical to say that regeneration comes before faith.

Well why don't you share the scripture that supports that. We can see what verses you think say that.

 

[klutedavid]

Well why don't you share the scripture that supports that. We can see what verses you think say that.

Hello TBL.

I also would be interested in the verses that support the idea.

 

[Hammster]

Please provide Scriptural support for this claim.


So that's how one concludes which comes first?? Such a view is on mighty shakey ground. But at least you've given reasons for your theory.

The fact is that Scripture never states which comes first. The Greek grammar of 1 Jn 5:1 indicates that the present participle (believing ones) occurs AT THE SAME TIME AS THE ACTION OF THE MAIN VERB (has been born of God). They occur at the same time.

We also know from Eph 2:5 that being "made alive", which is regeneration or being born again, occurs with "have been saved". And v.8 gives the logical order: we are saved through faith.

So, as faith precedes salvation, faith also precedes being made alive.

Not only logical, but Biblical.

You're welcome.

I see where your problem lies. You've confused regeneration and justification. They are not the sane. That's why in Ephesians 2, we are made alive (regeneration) and then justified (saved by grace through faith). Again, the order is clear...regeneration then justification.

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
"I see, you can't answer the question. Where specifically in John 3 and Titus 2 do we find what regeneration is necessary for?

Please quit being so vague in your responses."

Once again, a failure to actually answer the question. I'm VERY FAMILIAR with both chapters, which is WHY I asked for the specific verses that you think support your claim. As usual, just more vagueness.

It's actually ok to admit that you cannot point to any specific verses in either chapter that supports your claims. Really. Such confession does the soul good.

This is where I have to doubt your sincerity. If you are as familiar with Calvinism as you claim to be, you should be able to explain it and how Calvinists come to there conclusions. So my referencing these two chapters should come as no surprise. But if you really want everyone to believe that you don't know why they are being referenced, then everyone must also believe that you cannot be sure that Calvinism is false because you are not familiar with the arguments.

So you can either admit that you really don't know much about Calvinism even though it's been explained to you over and over again these past years, or you can stop playing games.

 

[Hammster]

There are NO verses anywhere in the Bible that teach this theory. If I'm wrong, then prove it by citing them.

It's not that simple. It's like the doctrine of the Trinity. There are no verses that spell it out. But we can come to the truth by examining scripture.

I've not seen any willingness from you to do that, so I won't waste my time. I will take the time, however, with someone who sincerely wants to understand.

 

[Hammster]

Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so yes I would agree with your statement.

Good. Why do you think it's necessary?

 

[Hammster]

Which tense of 'salvation' was Paul referring to here? Our salvation involves 3 tenses:

1. Past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. Which is justification.
2. Present tense: saved from the power of sin. Which is sanctification.
3. Future tense: saved from the presence of sin. Which is glorifiation.

So, which tense was Paul referring to in Phil 2:12?

2.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say that you said grace was cheap.

I said that you called it cheap grace. See post #272 which is where you used this term. I don't think any Christian should ever use this term because it doesn't insult another, IMHO. What it really does is insult God.

I'm not insulting anyone. I'm mocking the idea that one can be saved but never sanctified. I'm mocking the idea that their can be birth without growth, adoption without obedience, or never following the Shepherd.