Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[Meowzltov]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm reading your verses. They make your point that Abraham was important. They don't make your point that he was as important as Mary. But I do respect the effort that you made.

 

[Bryan G]

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

You either don't know english, or you don't know how to read, or both. The only thing that is "forever and ever" is the smoke. It doesn't say anything about people suffering forever, only the smoke ascends forever.

 

[Aldebaran]

Anytime you ask someone else to pray for you, you're praying to them, did you realize? That's called a supplication.

So if I ask you to pray for me, you're saying I'm praying to you as well. What about this post where I'm writing something to you? Is this something you'd consider to be a prayer as well?
Anyway, we're not here to define what the definition of prayer is. We have people here who think we should be praying through dead people to get to Christ to get to God the Father, and some people think a dead person named Mary is the one to pray through. I happen to notice that scripture doesn't tell us to do any prayers to Mary any more than it tells us to pray to Joseph.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Scripture does seem to minimize Mary for the most part. I mean, Abraham is mentioned far more times then Mary, who is barely chirped about and most especially in the epistles. She is mentioned in Acts 1:14 as Mary the mother of Jesus being present with all the other said names also there. I heard that folks are supposedly divided upon the mention of Mary the mother of John as is mentioned in Acts 12:12 as if thats iffy. And there is a greeting by name to a Mary for bestowing much labour on them but even there is not acknowledged as being Mary mother of either Jesus or John. And in Gal 4:4 Paul touches upon God sending his Son made of a woman who was made under the law (but even he doesnt even mention her by name). Folks point out the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation as being her in heaven but a couple verses after she's fleeing into the wilderness. Yet others say she had no pain delivering the child (because he come out of her side as the woman the man did) and yet there it shows she was in pain to be delivered. Never made sense, even some of the explanations seem to be stretching it. Then the handmaid of the Lord is now the queen of heaven with little Jesus on her lap (pictured on her throne) with her immaculate foot on a snake per the Genesis verse. When Paul speaks of the mystery there (of the man and the woman) to be speaking of Christ and the church (made up of many members whether they be male or female) In Ephesians 5:32 and God bruising the serpent is under their feet spoken of again here in Romans 16:20

Even where Paul begins to share what he preached as far as the gospel goes in the "first of all" part (he did not not include any mention of Mary in it).

For instance here, if you look

1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you **first of all** that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


That was "first of all". Thats where Paul confirmed he started, the death of (not birth of) Christ and what they had heard (what they received) wherein they both did stand and by which they were saved (unless ofcourse they strayed off course and believed in vain). Paul just didn't start at the virgin birth there. He did not even mention (and specifically there) in the "first of all" part of the gospel itself that which pertained to God sending His Son made of a woman made under the law. That is not mentioned there in the "first of all" part. And when he does mention it elsewhere (its mentioned rather briefly) in Gal 4:4 and he never uses her name, the focus is on Jesus Christ, His death, and His resurrection (not another's).

In comparison, if we made one, Abraham is mentioned far more times then she is when you look. People are just vessels, Abraham like Mary were earthen vessels, Paul speaks of the treasure in earthen vessels, and in a house the kinds of vessels there are. Mary as any other woman bare a child 9 months in her womb. The conception was not of man or for the credit or glorification of any man, as God said beforehand what he would do and performed it, a virgin conceiving, and He opened the same at the right time, and brought to pass His word even as He brings to delivery. The vessels are His making, even though flesh (the same he was made of) even through the same. His whole plan didnt depend on man and they are as nothing before Christ their Creator anyway. He could soon enough destroy either a person or a nation and make another for His purposes seeing He is the Potter and we are the clay. They cant thwart God or His purposes, He doesn't lean heavily on the arm of the flesh to help Him out (I dont get that sort of mindset that might put it out like that).

Jael was called blessed above women, and Elizabeth (even before Mary's word was even spoken) exclaimed that Mary was blessed among the same women.

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

And "the fruit of" thy womb not "thy womb". Like that woman telling the Lord how special the womb was that actually bore him (as He is the very creator of the entire vessel He come through)

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Elizabeth's voice on the matter is not so "womb focused" as that woman was. I believe she knew "the fruit" thereof (even Jesus Christ) was the blessed, according to the promise of God not the womb so much. Likewise she was probably well aware that as Jael was also said to be blessed above women and that her cousin Mary was surely blessed among the same, even as it was written

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Children are a heritage of the Lord and the fruit of the womb (even Jesus Christ) is His reward as he is from above and sent to be the salvation prepared before all people. He is where the focus should be, the blessing is not the womb itself or the vagina he come through or in the pain of a woman in the travail like most women would typically experience in the delivery itself but the blessing of God, the great joy of this child being brought forth into the world. The pain in the delivery is where the sorrow is, the child having been brought forth into the world is where the joy is (and especially for her) I can relate, where there is a celebration over the child (not so much the mother) I can also relate (and wouldnt have had it any other way). Bearing children are what women are assigned the same task to do (nine months of til that day). Mary did so acording to the flesh (and Christ in us) according to the Spirit (for much longer than that).

The apostles do not write in any way indicating any prayer to be offer to Mary or to glorify Mary in anyway, thats something I just never got. She pretty much said all generations from henceforth will call me blessed and we see it beginning in Jesus hearing, who answered the woman who did so in a corrective fashion (to sort of get off the whole blessed womb and paps thing).

 

[Aldebaran]

IF, IF you were right, I would agree that there were a serious problem. But you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching. Mary's power is in her intercession to God through Christ. She goes to her son, and he listens with special attentiveness because she is his mother, as he did at the wedding at Cana.

Here's how much Jesus thought of His mother over everyone else:

Matthew 12:
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Fireinfolding]

I actually love John 2:5

This is my favorite saying of Mary's

His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

That and how her soul doth magnify the LORD

 

[JLB777]

I'm reading your verses. They make your point that Abraham was important. They don't make your point that he was as important as Mary. But I do respect the effort that you made.

Mary was blessed because of Abraham.

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Genesis 12;3

Mary was included in "all the families of the earth".


JLB

 

[JLB777]

You either don't know english, or you don't know how to read, or both. The only thing that is "forever and ever" is the smoke. It doesn't say anything about people suffering forever, only the smoke ascends forever.

I guess you have abandoned your first attempt at "explaining away" what the straightforward truth is from the scriptures,as your comment says - Doesn't look that way to me, where does is say "someone"?


If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

Anyone, his, he himself, he, they, their, whoever... are all references to people...

It doesn't say anything about people suffering forever, only the smoke ascends forever.

I see now why I refrained from making the comment that your last post, was the funnies thing I had ever read on a Christian Forum, that said: where does is say "someone"?

Little did I know you would turn right around with this one that surely tops it:

It doesn't say anything about people suffering forever, only the smoke ascends forever.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

These are tormented with fire.

The fire causes the smoke of their torment.

The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day or night.


These that are being tormented with fire, have no rest day or night, as they are tormented, and the smoke of their torment which is caused by the fire, rises forever and ever.

Guess what? The torment that is caused by the fire, and causes smoke continues forever, which is why they have no rest day or night.


Where there is smoke there is fire.

Where there is fire, there is torment.

Where there is torment, there is the smoke of the torment.


Yes, the smoke ascends forever from the people being tormented with fire, which is why they have no rest day or night.



JLB

 

[Sketcher]

The Church has no authority to contradict past Magisterial teaching, such as what the Bible teaches. Thus your scenario can never happen.

Too bad it did with the Crusades, and up to and during the Reformation. By ordering killing. But that's off topic.

 

[Bryan G]

I guess you have abandoned your first attempt at "explaining away" what the straightforward truth is from the scriptures,as your comment says - Doesn't look that way to me, where does is say "someone"?


If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

Anyone, his, he himself, he, they, their, whoever... are all references to people...





I see now why I refrained from making the comment that your last post, was the funnies thing I had ever read on a Christian Forum, that said: where does is say "someone"?

Little did I know you would turn right around with this one that surely tops it:






He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

These are tormented with fire.

The fire causes the smoke of their torment.

The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day or night.


These that are being tormented with fire, have no rest day or night, as they are tormented, and the smoke of their torment which is caused by the fire, rises forever and ever.

Guess what? The torment that is caused by the fire, and causes smoke continues forever, which is why they have no rest day or night.


Where there is smoke there is fire.

Where there is fire, there is torment.

Where there is torment, there is the smoke of the torment.


Yes, the smoke ascends forever from the people being tormented with fire, which is why they have no rest day or night.



JLB

Well, anyone with half a brain will understand the truth here.
You just can't get it. If I blow out a candle, the smoke continues to go up even after the fire is out.
But I guess it's not the verse that gets by your wisdom, it's the fact that the truth contradicts what you want to believe, so your mind refuses to comprehend anything else.
Oh, almost forgot, you also don't understand what fire does. Let me give you a 1st grade lesson, fire burns thing up. If I throw a piece of paper in a fire, the paper burns up and is gone, but the fire burns on.
You believe in a cruel vengeful God, I don't, I believe in a loving God.

EDIT: I keep posting this, but you seem to ignore it:
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
This verse tells you what happens to the evil people, and gives you an example. The bad people are burned by the same fire as Sodom and Gomorrah. Are they still burning today? NO, they were burned up and exist no more.

 

[Paul1963]

You're thinking of "ABused," not "used." Of course, he made use of Mary, even though she gave her consent.


Now you're posting nonsense simply in order to be outrageous. Henry was a Catholic until his death and was never declared to be a heretic by Rome; and no one thinks or thought that he was a god or infallible or a Pope or anything else like that.

It's seems funny that the protestants don't know there history there beloved Luther had no problem in the early church with Our Blessed mother that was not a bone of contention with him, and was not the reason for the scisim in the church. So why hundreds of years later do the protestants now have a problem with Mary? Remember Scripture alone and it dose say she will be called blessed. So for you protestants.
HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH THEE, BLESSED ART THOUGH AMONGST WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB JESUS. HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH
AMEN

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont think there is anything wrong with Mary myself.

But I also dont know Luther, but then again I dont care that much about what followed (and took off where) after the apostles so much.

Someone put Mary on steroids because I just dont see all of this in the original apostles.

 

[JLB777]

You just can't get it. If I blow out a candle, the smoke continues to go up even after the fire is out.

Does the smoke continue forever and ever?

Unfortunately for your "theory" the fire of their torment doesn't cease, because those who are tormented do not cease to exist, as it clearly says, they have no rest day or night.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,


Their torment produces the smoke, which is why it clearly says the smoke OF THEIR TORMENT ascends forever and ever, as they have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT.

The reason they have no rest day or night, is from being tormented.

The smoke never stops because the fire never stops as the torment never stops... which is why the have no rest DAY OR NIGHT.


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41,46


JLB

 

[Panevino]

Scripture does seem to minimize Mary for the most part. I mean, Abraham is mentioned far more times then Mary, who is barely chirped about and most especially in the epistles.

Try comparing Mary with Abrahams wife Sarah(while considering the son Isaac)It's more relevant.
Gen17:15-19(Luke1:28-48)
Sarah's role(isa51:2/gen17:16)

She is mentioned in Acts 1:14 as Mary the mother of Jesus being present with all the other said names also there.

after naming the 12 she is named directly and the rest (120 people) are summarised as other women and bretherem. Her significance is therefore highlighted by being singled out after the 12

I heard that folks are supposedly divided upon the mention of Mary the mother of John as is mentioned in Acts 12:12 as if thats iffy.

there are quite a lot of Mary's look into it

And there is a greeting by name to a Mary for bestowing much labour on them but even there is not acknowledged as being Mary mother of either Jesus or John. And in Gal 4:4 Paul touches upon God sending his Son made of a woman who was made under the law (but even he doesnt even mention her by name).

beacause the context is broader but also it ties it to the emnity between the woman, her seed and serpent from gen3:15

Folks point out the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation as being her in heaven but a couple verses after she's fleeing into the wilderness.

see Mary/Jesus/Herod in Matt 2

Yet others say she had no pain delivering the child (because he come out of her side as the woman the man did) and yet there it shows she was in pain to be delivered.

pain in childbirth was increased not introduced

 

[Fireinfolding]

Try comparing Mary with Abrahams wife Sarah(while considering the son Isaac)It's more relevant.
Gen17:15-19(Luke1:28-48)
Sarah's role(isa51:2/gen17:16)
after naming the 12 she is named directly and the rest (120 people) are summarised as other women and bretherem. Her significance is therefore highlighted by being singled out after the 12 there are quite a lot of Mary's look into it beacause the context is broader but also it ties it to the emnity between the woman, her seed and serpent from gen3:15 see Mary/Jesus/Herod in Matt 2 pain in childbirth was increased not introduced

None of that answers anything, it assumes I havent compared is all. And I didnt say pain was introduced, others have told me she had none, yet will say she is the woman in revelation (where it speaks of her in pain) and that contradicted what they had said earlier. Then seat her in the heavens as queen (when a couple verses later shes fleeing into the wilderness).

Jesus was made of a woman made under the law, so Sarah is understood to be a handmaid (or bondwoman)? As a woman made under the law also? Because Abrahams wife Sarah had a "handmaid" named Hagar which pertained to Jerusalem (below) as these two women representing two covenants.

120 was also the age of Moses when he died (could also be symbolic there of "the end of the law") as could possibly be shown in the number of names present. I would have to stretch that, but I see it as an interesting coincidence.

The apostles dont really tie everything in to the person of Mary like people do today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

None of that answers anything, it assumes I havent compared is all. And I didnt say pain was introduced, others have told me she had none, yet will say she is the woman in revelation (where it speaks of her in pain) and that contradicted what they had said earlier. Then seat her in the heavens as queen (when a could verses later shes fleeing into the wilderness).

Jesus was made of a woman made under the law, so Sarah is understood to be a handmaid (or bondwoman)? As a woman made under the law also? Because Abrahams wife Sarah had a "handmaid" named Hagar which pertained to Jerusalem (below) as these two women representing two covenants.

120 was also the age of Moses when he died (could also be symbolic there of "the end of the law") as could possibly be shown in the number of names present. I would have to stretch that, but I see it as an interesting coincidence.

The apostles dont really tie everything in to the person of Mary like people do today.

Hi Fireinfolding. It is good to see you again. I appreciated your post. It reveals some of the problems in attempting to read things into scripture that just are not there.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hi Fireinfolding. It is good to see you again. I appreciated your post. It reveals some of the problems in attempting to read things into scripture that just are not there.

Hey b! Always good to see you around here too (breath of fresh air really)

Yeah, I agree, it always has in this area, that has never really changed for me in all of my years participating in these discussions.

 

[Meowzltov]

Abraham was the first member of the covenant that we have been grafted into.

We have not been grafted onto the Abrahamic covenant. We have been grafted onto the olive tree that is the believers in the oracles of God.

 

[Meowzltov]

Here's how much Jesus thought of His mother over everyone else:

Matthew 12:
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

In this passage he is pointing out the importance of the obedient. It doesn't demean the importance of his natural mother, who is the first and greatest of the obedient.

 

[Meowzltov]

Mary was blessed because of Abraham.

Indeed, as are all believers. BUT IN ADDITION TO THIS, Mary is blessed by all generations because of her YES to God -- it puts her on a plane above all other Christians.