Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[BABerean2]

The nation will be grafted back in. If the whole context was just about individual jews then there would be no reason Paul would say anything about God not forgetting the nation and for them to come back into their covenant and being enemies of the gospel etc. Your thinking is wrong again because you fail to understand the difference between the nation of Israel and saved jews in the church.

Which covenant are you referring to here?

.

 

[ewq1938]

So, you also believe that the 144,000 Israelites that are sealed in Revelation 7 is exactly 144,000, no more and no less?

Of course, it is quite explicit on how many there are.

 

[jerry kelso]

Which covenant are you referring to here?

.

baberean2,


1. The new covenant.

2. The new covenant was only offered specifically and directly to the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-32.
The new covenant came to the gentiles through Israel's unbelief Romans 11:11 to provoke them to jealously. This is what the scripture says and so this is not because there was a plan b but because of Israel the nation's disobedience.

3. Matthew 26:28; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Christ is the new covenant given to the world and the veil was rent to break down the middle wall of partition between us and abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace. This one new man is the church of jews and gentile on the same level ground.

4. This does not annul the covenant with the nation of Israel and their earthly calling as the head of the nations of the world.

5. Matthew 19:28: and Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that y which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This scene is in the KoH reign on earth where Christ will be on the throne of his glory which will be in the New Jerusalem where the law will go out of the earthly Mt. Zion and from where the 12 disciples which became the apostles in the early church will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
6. The KoH earthly reign of authority is what Christ gave the keys to Peter and all the disciples in the overall context and not the church as Catholics try to prove. Matthew 16:19; And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

7. It is plain to see that Israel as a nation is still backslidden and have the veil over their eyes (2 Corinthians 3:12-16). It will not be taken away until the fulness of the gentiles (Romans 11:25) is come in which won't be until the end of the tribulation. Isaiah 66:7-8 when Zion travails for her children and they are a nation born in one day.

8. Because the nation is backslidden they must come back to God spiritually before they can receive the physical kingdom. Revelation 1:7; Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. MALACHI 4:5; BEHOLD, I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH THE PROPHET BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD.

9. Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses that will witness to the nation of Israel among other things. The 144,000 jews will be saved and elect jews sealed to go through the trumpet judgements and will go to heaven but they will witness to the jewish nation. The remnant will come through the fire to be God's tried and true (Zechariah 13:9).

10. This all goes to show that the nation of Israel has not receive the new covenant to be able to take their position in their covenants of Abraham and David. This is why Hebrews 8:7-13 has not been fulfilled and verses 10-12 you cannot prove has ever happened with the nation of Israel but it has with the jews who have been saved who are a part of the church.

11. Christ came to bring the new covenant to the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31). Christ message was to repent and believe in the Messiah to be born again. There was no mention of the death, burial, and resurrection because they were under the Mosaic law and Jesus didn't teach this and they didn't understand it after the nation had rejected him according to Matthew 18:21-23 and John 6. This is why dispensationalists say that if they would have accepted Christ the kingdom would have started then.

12. The truth is that if they would have accepted it Jesus would have still had to die in order for them to be saved and perfected. However, this is speculation and the truth is that there was not one scripture that says Israel would have accepted him. Christ knew he had to die for the whole world and he knew he had to make in twain one new man to make Israel jealous and come back to him. So there never was a plan b.

13. The second time of Hebrews 8:7-13 will be different. One, the new covenant has already been established. Two, Jews who are saved in the last half of the tribulation and didn't take the mark are raptured to heaven and stand on the sea of glass. They sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. The song of Moses is an allusion to jewish believers.

14. The remnant will be saved and they will not be a martyr and they will understand the message of the one they pierced which implies the new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection. After those days is after the battle of Armageddon he will put his law into their hearts and set up the kingdom with Israel at the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4. Context in proper perspective. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

This is the Crux.
Indeed, premills have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (they count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism, known today as Christianity, living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

parousia 70,

1. The continuation of Israel was never said to be through the wicked sons for they were not faithful. The covenant of Israel is conditioned by obedience.

2. In the tribulation 2/3 of the rebels of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 will come through the fire as gold as tried and true. Zechariah 13:9. This remnant and the nation of Israel symbolized by the woman in the wilderness in Revelation 12 will make up the Nation of Israel to be at the head of the nations with Christ on his throne and the apostles who will rule the 12 tribes of Israel Matthew 19:28 and Isaiah 2:2-4. The kingdom will be forever and the government will be upon the shoulders of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords etc. Isaiah 9:6-7. Israel will fulfill their covenants after the battle of Armageddon and not with disobedient jews but obedient jews. And all Israel will be saved.... Romans 11:25 Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

2. The new covenant was only offered specifically and directly to the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-32.
The new covenant came to the gentiles through Israel's unbelief Romans 11:11 to provoke them to jealously. This is what the scripture says and so this is not because there was a plan b but because of Israel the nation's disobedience.

3. Matthew 26:28; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Christ is the new covenant given to the world and the veil was rent to break down the middle wall of partition between us and abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace. This one new man is the church of jews and gentile on the same level ground.


4. This does not annul the covenant with the nation of Israel and their earthly calling as the head of the nations of the world.



5. Matthew 19:28: and Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that y which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This scene is in the KoH reign on earth where Christ will be on the throne of his glory which will be in the New Jerusalem where the law will go out of the earthly Mt. Zion and from where the 12 disciples which became the apostles in the early church will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

2. The new covenant was only offered specifically and directly to the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-32.
The new covenant came to the gentiles through Israel's unbelief Romans 11:11 to provoke them to jealously. This is what the scripture says and so this is not because there was a plan b but because of Israel the nation's disobedience.
Nowhere in scripture is there any verse that says all of the Israelites will accept Christ, without changing the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26, which is a corruption of God's Word.
You are also ignoring the fact that in the first few years of the Church, it was made up of Israelites.
The Gentiles branches were grafted in among the Israelite branches that remained in the Olive tree, because of their faith in Christ.

3. Matthew 26:28; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Christ is the new covenant given to the world and the veil was rent to break down the middle wall of partition between us and abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace. This one new man is the church of jews and gentile on the same level ground.
Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all races of people, at the Cross.
You are attempting to rebuild it.

4. This does not annul the covenant with the nation of Israel and their earthly calling as the head of the nations of the world.
The Promises were made only to Christ, as Paul plainly states below.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

2. The new covenant was only offered specifically and directly to the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-32.
The new covenant came to the gentiles through Israel's unbelief Romans 11:11 to provoke them to jealously. This is what the scripture says and so this is not because there was a plan b but because of Israel the nation's disobedience.
Nowhere in scripture is there any verse that says all of the Israelites will accept Christ, without changing the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26, which is a corruption of God's Word.
You are also ignoring the fact that in the first few years of the Church, it was made up of Israelites.
The Gentiles branches were grafted in among the Israelite branches that remained in the Olive tree, because of their faith in Christ.

3. Matthew 26:28; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Christ is the new covenant given to the world and the veil was rent to break down the middle wall of partition between us and abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace. This one new man is the church of jews and gentile on the same level ground.
Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all races of people, at the Cross.
You are attempting to rebuild it.

4. This does not annul the covenant with the nation of Israel and their earthly calling as the head of the nations of the world.
The Promises were made only to Christ, as Paul plainly states below.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.

baberean,

1. Changing the word from "so" to "then" doesn't make any difference. Verse 25 is about Israel in blindness and this is backed up by 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 is talking specifically to the nation of Israel. It says the children of Israel and this is talking about the nation as a whole. Verse 14 their minds were blinded in Jesus day and still was in Paul's day and still is today.
Going back to Romans 11:25 their blindness will be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This is still future and you cannot prove otherwise because it deals with the kingdoms of this world which will not be taken literally by Christ until the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 11:15. The future tribulation is the context in verse 25 and 26 and the whole chapter.
If you change it to then all Israel shall be saved is even more plain than the word so. It would read like this; blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentile be come in which is future in the tribulation. Then meaning at this future time "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". "SO" YOUR USAGE OF THE WORD "THEN" PROVES THE SCRIPTURES POINT THAT ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN.

2. This means that your whole scenario about the grafting in not being the nation of Israel that Paul was concerned about is wrong too.

3. The promises of the covenants were not made to Christ. God made the covenant with Abraham and made him the father of the nation of Israel to bring the messiah into that line. God said he would make him a great nation and his seed would be as the sand of the sea.
The church is not a nation in the same respect as Israel. This means that Israel will fulfill the position of being at the head of the nations of this world.

4. Galatians 3:16; NOW TO ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, AS OF MANY; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. This verse says nothing of the promises only given to Christ alone or at all.

5. Abraham and his seed is talking about the nation of Israel according to the context of verse 15 and 17 both. The one seed is Christ for he is the savior of the world and salvation is only in him. The context was talking about the law of Moses couldn't annul the promise of Abraham concerning redemption at the cross. If the inheritance is of the law then it is no more of a promise but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Mose was given the law because of transgression and only till the seed should come.

6. You are wrong again because you are not understanding the full context. You also do not understand the jewish history of the covenants that are eternal.

7. Paul said the nation of Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance. This means that God will save all Israel when they obey and this is why the covenant concerning the land and the kingdom for the nation of Israel is sure and will happen. He said this in the same time factor of the one new man which happened at Calvary.

8. I am sorry but you are wrong again and you need to recognize it.

9. I asked once if you think I am wrong about the kingdom and what kind of government it is, then feel free to tell me what you think it will be like according to the scripture with detail. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia 70,

1. The continuation of Israel was never said to be through the wicked sons for they were not faithful. The covenant of Israel is conditioned by obedience.

Correct. However you have people today you call "Israel" who, if they have any genetic continuation from the pre desolation Hebrew people, are ONLY descended from the DISOBEDIENT Sons who were cut off from among the people and EXCOMMUNICATED from the Covenant for their disobedience back in the first Century...
These are NOT Israel, by your own admission above, yet you call them Israel anyway.

The ONLY people TODAY who can be said to be descended from TRUE Israel are those that came from the faithful Jews of the first century who followed the Jewish Messiah and entered into the New Covenant (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews ) These, along with the gentile converts, are whom True Faithful Israel continued past century 1AD. These are the only people who make up True Faithful Israel TODAY.
Nobody else. Just them.

 

[BABerean2]

baberean,

1. Changing the word from "so" to "then" doesn't make any difference. Verse 25 is about Israel in blindness and this is backed up by 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 is talking specifically to the nation of Israel. It says the children of Israel and this is talking about the nation as a whole. Verse 14 their minds were blinded in Jesus day and still was in Paul's day and still is today.
Going back to Romans 11:25 their blindness will be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This is still future and you cannot prove otherwise because it deals with the kingdoms of this world which will not be taken literally by Christ until the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 11:15. The future tribulation is the context in verse 25 and 26 and the whole chapter.
If you change it to then all Israel shall be saved is even more plain than the word so. It would read like this; blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentile be come in which is future in the tribulation. Then meaning at this future time "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". "SO" YOUR USAGE OF THE WORD "THEN" PROVES THE SCRIPTURES POINT THAT ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN.

2. This means that your whole scenario about the grafting in not being the nation of Israel that Paul was concerned about is wrong too.

3. The promises of the covenants were not made to Christ. God made the covenant with Abraham and made him the father of the nation of Israel to bring the messiah into that line. God said he would make him a great nation and his seed would be as the sand of the sea.
The church is not a nation in the same respect as Israel. This means that Israel will fulfill the position of being at the head of the nations of this world.

4. Galatians 3:16; NOW TO ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, AS OF MANY; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. This verse says nothing of the promises only given to Christ alone or at all.

5. Abraham and his seed is talking about the nation of Israel according to the context of verse 15 and 17 both. The one seed is Christ for he is the savior of the world and salvation is only in him. The context was talking about the law of Moses couldn't annul the promise of Abraham concerning redemption at the cross. If the inheritance is of the law then it is no more of a promise but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Mose was given the law because of transgression and only till the seed should come.

6. You are wrong again because you are not understanding the full context. You also do not understand the jewish history of the covenants that are eternal.

7. Paul said the nation of Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance. This means that God will save all Israel when they obey and this is why the covenant concerning the land and the kingdom for the nation of Israel is sure and will happen. He said this in the same time factor of the one new man which happened at Calvary.

8. I am sorry but you are wrong again and you need to recognize it.

9. I asked once if you think I am wrong about the kingdom and what kind of government it is, then feel free to tell me what you think it will be like according to the scripture with detail. Jerry kelso

1. Changing the word from "so" to "then" doesn't make any difference.
There is no excuse for changing anything in God's Word, especially when the words have a different meaning.

so

G3779


οὕτω

houtō

hoo'-to

Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.

From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
.......................................................................................................................
then


G1161


δέ

de

deh

A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].
......................................................................................


Verse 25 is about Israel in blindness and this is backed up by 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 is talking specifically to the nation of Israel. It says the children of Israel and this is talking about the nation as a whole. Verse 14 their minds were blinded in Jesus day and still was in Paul's day and still is today.

Going back to Romans 11:25 their blindness will be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This is still future and you cannot prove otherwise
The last Gentile comes to faith on the day of the Second Coming of Christ.
If all of the Israelites were blinded, none of them could come to faith in Christ.
Some are blinded and some are not.
Those not blinded, remained in the Olive Tree.
Those blinded were broken off from the Olive Tree, but can be grafted back through faith in Christ.

because it deals with the kingdoms of this world which will not be taken literally by Christ until the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 11:15. The future tribulation is the context in verse 25 and 26 and the whole chapter.
If you change it to then all Israel shall be saved is even more plain than the word so. It would read like this; blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentile be come in which is future in the tribulation. Then meaning at this future time "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". "SO" YOUR USAGE OF THE WORD "THEN" PROVES THE SCRIPTURES POINT THAT ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN.

2. This means that your whole scenario about the grafting in not being the nation of Israel that Paul was concerned about is wrong too. Get a small tree and pull off all the branches and then destroy the root.
Then try to graft some branches into the nothing that is left.
Grafting requires something to graft the limbs into.
The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelites, like Paul, who had come to faith in Christ. Romans 11:1

3. The promises of the covenants were not made to Christ. God made the covenant with Abraham and made him the father of the nation of Israel to bring the messiah into that line. God said he would make him a great nation and his seed would be as the sand of the sea.
The church is not a nation in the same respect as Israel. This means that Israel will fulfill the position of being at the head of the nations of this world.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


4. Galatians 3:16; NOW TO ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, AS OF MANY; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. This verse says nothing of the promises only given to Christ alone or at all.

5. Abraham and his seed is talking about the nation of Israel according to the context of verse 15 and 17 both. The one seed is Christ for he is the savior of the world and salvation is only in him. The context was talking about the law of Moses couldn't annul the promise of Abraham concerning redemption at the cross. If the inheritance is of the law then it is no more of a promise but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Mose was given the law because of transgression and only till the seed should come.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (The New Covenant does not consider bloodline.)

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(The promise comes through faith in Christ.)

6. You are wrong again because you are not understanding the full context. You also do not understand the jewish history of the covenants that are eternal.
(Nothing is this rotten, sin-cursed word is eternal, because this world is not eternal.)

7. Paul said the nation of Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance. This means that God will save all Israel when they obey and this is why the covenant concerning the land and the kingdom for the nation of Israel is sure and will happen. He said this in the same time factor of the one new man which happened at Calvary.


Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

 

[jerry kelso]

1. Changing the word from "so" to "then" doesn't make any difference.
There is no excuse for changing anything in God's Word, especially when the words have a different meaning.

so

G3779


οὕτω

houtō

hoo'-to

Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.

From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
.......................................................................................................................
then


G1161


δέ

de

deh

A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].
......................................................................................


Verse 25 is about Israel in blindness and this is backed up by 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 is talking specifically to the nation of Israel. It says the children of Israel and this is talking about the nation as a whole. Verse 14 their minds were blinded in Jesus day and still was in Paul's day and still is today.

Going back to Romans 11:25 their blindness will be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This is still future and you cannot prove otherwise
The last Gentile comes to faith on the day of the Second Coming of Christ.
If all of the Israelites were blinded, none of them could come to faith in Christ.
Some are blinded and some are not.
Those not blinded, remained in the Olive Tree.
Those blinded were broken off from the Olive Tree, but can be grafted back through faith in Christ.

because it deals with the kingdoms of this world which will not be taken literally by Christ until the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 11:15. The future tribulation is the context in verse 25 and 26 and the whole chapter.
If you change it to then all Israel shall be saved is even more plain than the word so. It would read like this; blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentile be come in which is future in the tribulation. Then meaning at this future time "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". "SO" YOUR USAGE OF THE WORD "THEN" PROVES THE SCRIPTURES POINT THAT ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN.

2. This means that your whole scenario about the grafting in not being the nation of Israel that Paul was concerned about is wrong too. Get a small tree and pull off all the branches and then destroy the root.
Then try to graft some branches into the nothing that is left.
Grafting requires something to graft the limbs into.
The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelites, like Paul, who had come to faith in Christ. Romans 11:1

3. The promises of the covenants were not made to Christ. God made the covenant with Abraham and made him the father of the nation of Israel to bring the messiah into that line. God said he would make him a great nation and his seed would be as the sand of the sea.
The church is not a nation in the same respect as Israel. This means that Israel will fulfill the position of being at the head of the nations of this world.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


4. Galatians 3:16; NOW TO ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, AS OF MANY; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. This verse says nothing of the promises only given to Christ alone or at all.

5. Abraham and his seed is talking about the nation of Israel according to the context of verse 15 and 17 both. The one seed is Christ for he is the savior of the world and salvation is only in him. The context was talking about the law of Moses couldn't annul the promise of Abraham concerning redemption at the cross. If the inheritance is of the law then it is no more of a promise but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Mose was given the law because of transgression and only till the seed should come.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (The New Covenant does not consider bloodline.)

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(The promise comes through faith in Christ.)

6. You are wrong again because you are not understanding the full context. You also do not understand the jewish history of the covenants that are eternal.
(Nothing is this rotten, sin-cursed word is eternal, because this world is not eternal.)

7. Paul said the nation of Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance. This means that God will save all Israel when they obey and this is why the covenant concerning the land and the kingdom for the nation of Israel is sure and will happen. He said this in the same time factor of the one new man which happened at Calvary.


Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

baberean,

1. You are the one changing the word from so to then not me. I am saying that either word doesn't make any difference because the context is about the nation of Israel coming back to God from their blindness because their covenant is without repentance.

2. You think it is about individual jews who were blinded that could get grafted back in. There were some jews that only had the understanding of john's baptism and didn't even know about the gospel of the cross. They got saved and became a part of the church but were not grafted back in because they didn't know about the cross to begin with. Some of them did know and got their hearts right and were a part of the church and were grafted in. However, that has nothing to do with the part of the nation of Israel needing to be grafted back in.

3. Romans 11:7; What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtaine it, and the rest were blinded. Verse 8; (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Verse 11, I say then, have they stumbled thaqt they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy. This goes in line with Jesus when he told the jewish nation that the kingdom of God would be taken away from them and given to another who was not a nation etc. This is talking about the spiritual aspect of the gentiles like in this passage.

4. If individual jews having to be grafted back in again was the context in this overall passage it would only mean those jews who were in Jesus ministry that lived under the law and disobeyed him and were out of covenant in Paul's day or however long they lived in that day. So any individual jew eventually that hadn't backslid but still didn't know the gospel message would just be saved and grafted in like the gentiles, not grafted in again. So your theory of the context being about individual jews being grafted in is not true because it makes no sense.

5. There is no scripture that says the last gentile will be saved at the second coming of Christ. On the contrary, there will be jewish missionaries in the millennial kingdom. (Isaiah 2:2-4; 40:9; 52:7; 61:6; 66;18-21; Zechariah 8:23). There will be people who have not known the Lord has come back because they will not know about his glory. Yes, gentiles will be saved in the kingdom era which is after the 2nd coming of Christ.
There is no argument with gentiles being Abraham's seed spiritually. This is because Abraham's seed was by promise and not by the law. This concerns salvation and why grace is not by works or by the law. Romans 4. This has nothing to do with Israel's covenant as the elect for the kingdom of heaven as the head of the nations etc.

6. The world is eternal and the renovation of the millennial kingdom are not an annihilation of the heaven and earth either one. This is a misnomer. The curse will be lifted and has to be renovated by fire which purifies so that those things that need shaking will no longer be and the things that will remain will not be affected by the shaking. This is the context of Hebrews 12:26-29.

7. Jesus is the overall root and cannot be destroyed. The reason that Israel is referred to as the root is because God put them there as the nation to preserve the covenants and callings etc.
Hebrews 8:9 Israel did and does live in continued disobedience and God did not regard them. However, if you read verse 10 and 11 you find that they will obey and this is why God will forgive their sins and bring them into the new covenant and put their laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

8. Verse 11 says; And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This is talking about the nation of Israel not individual jews and is the same wording as in Jeremiah 31:31-34 which was spoken to Israel the nation and not individual jews randomly that would be a part of the church.

9. In the same passage talking to Israel the nation the Lord said in verse 35; Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Israel's covenants are forever and this scripture proves it. Jerry kelso

 

[Jan001]

God gave Israel the spirit of slumber so they wouldn't hear even in Paul's day and it is still true today. Through their fall salvation came to the gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. It was because of Israel's disobedience this happened and the nation of Israel will be grafted in because of this jealously of the church.
Anyway, there is no contradiction in what I said according to the context of the scripture. We can do nothing without Christ. Shalolm! Jerry kelso

"God gave Israel the spirit of slumber" is a figure of speech. The Israelites actually put themselves to sleep. God's permissive will allowed them their own free will choice and they chose to not listen to God's prophets or to seek Him.

 

[jerry kelso]

Correct. However you have people today you call "Israel" who, if they have any genetic continuation from the pre desolation Hebrew people, are ONLY descended from the DISOBEDIENT Sons who were cut off from among the people and EXCOMMUNICATED from the Covenant for their disobedience back in the first Century...
These are NOT Israel, by your own admission above, yet you call them Israel anyway.

The ONLY people TODAY who can be said to be descended from TRUE Israel are those that came from the faithful Jews of the first century who followed the Jewish Messiah and entered into the New Covenant (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews ) These, along with the gentile converts, are whom True Faithful Israel continued past century 1AD. These are the only people who make up True Faithful Israel TODAY.
Nobody else. Just them.

parousia70,

1. Israel is where the jews come from and by bloodline they are still jews and can be called Israel in this context.

2. The biblical context of true jewish believers being a true jew is a spiritual context. This doesn't do away with a jew's physical bloodline. Gentiles can be called a spiritual gentile because they are saved but that doesn't do away with the fact that they are still a physical gentile.

3. The context was not directly about gentiles becoming a spiritual jew. It was talking to real physical jews who were jews outward only and not inwardly was not a spiritual jew. Upon this fact, if the gentile were to keep the law would it not be counted for circumcision? Law keeping don't save anyone but a spiritual circumcision will, not of the letter but of the heart and the spirit. The law of Moses was praise to men and the new covenant praise to God.

4. Paul didn't say these things in this context to build a doctrine on this of the church becoming a spiritual jew and dissing the physical jews. This borders in some respects by some as proud as the jews were of being the ones who were carriers of the old covenant.
People need to quit going to seed on this issue. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

"God gave Israel the spirit of slumber" is a figure of speech. The Israelites actually put themselves to sleep. God's permissive will allowed them their own free will choice and they chose to not listen to God's prophets or to seek Him.

jan001,
I didn't say anything contrary to that and nor do I disagree with that. So is there some other point that you want to make. You ought to know if you have read enough of my post and the times we have conversed that I believe in freewill choice and that God does things righteously. Jerry Kelso

 

[Jan001]

Of course, it is quite explicit on how many there are.

Does God only own the cattle on just 1000 hills and not any more cattle on any more hills than 1000?

Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills. nkjv
​

Or is the a thousand hills simply symbolic of a large number of hills because God owns all things that He has made including all the cattle on all the hills?

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. nkjv
​

Psalm 50:10's a thousand is not meant to be understood as a literal 1000 and neither is Peter's a thousand years meant to be a literal 1000 years.

Another example of literal versus symbolic:

Literal:

Acts 12:1-3
Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.nkjv​

Symbolic:

Luke 2:34-35
Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” nkjv​

​

 

[Jan001]

jan001,
I didn't say anything contrary to that and nor do I disagree with that. So is there some other point that you want to make. You ought to know if you have read enough of my post and the times we have conversed that I believe in freewill choice and that God does things righteously. Jerry Kelso

Many things that we read in Scripture are either meant to be understood as figures of speech or meant to be understood as symbolic portrayals of spiritual concepts, but it seems to me that you understand many of these figures of speech and symbolic portrayals of spiritual concepts to be strictly literal such as a thousand years.

A thousand years was definitely not meant by the authors to be understood as a literal 1000 years.

 

[BABerean2]

3. Romans 11:7; What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtaine it, and the rest were blinded.

but the election hath obtaine it, and the rest were blinded

Jerry this text plainly states there are two groups of Israelites, instead of one as you keep claiming.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Many things that we read in Scripture are either meant to be understood as figures of speech or meant to be understood as symbolic portrayals of spiritual concepts, but it seems to me that you understand many of these figures of speech and symbolic portrayals of spiritual concepts to be strictly literal such as a thousand years.

A thousand years was definitely not meant by the authors to be understood as a literal 1000 years.

jan001,

1. I didn't say it couldn't be used as the Lord's timing of 1000 years as a day. I did say that it is about a physical and literal 1000 years because it happens 1000 years from the 2nd resurrection of the sinners.

2. The first resurrection is only of the tribulation saints of the second half from all indication in Revelation 20. Why Because it specifically says so and the last actual account of the tribulation is Revelation 15 of which they go to heaven. In Revelation 14 they are called the Blessed Dead and in Revelation 6 the first half tribbers that are martyrs are told to wait for their brethren to be martyred in order to be vindicated. This seems to implies that the 1st resurrection is nothing but all the tribulation saints. However, in Revelation 20:4-6 only specifically states those in Revelation 16 which are the blessed dead and those who are in the last half of the tribulation who do not take the mark of the beast. There is no mention of the church or any living saint who is raptured at this time. This is why you have to build up a false straw man. This rapture in Revelation 15 is before the 7 vials are poured out upon the beast kingdom only in Revelation 16. It is known as the WRATH OF GOD upon the earth! The 5th angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain; And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

3. Just because their are metaphors in scripture there are literal examples as well. The problem is when the proper perspective is literal and it is used as symbolic and vice versa.

4. Your problem is that you use your belief of God's timing to the extreme to keep the doctrine of the true millennium is not true. You are the one who is being strictly metaphorical and leave the literal aspect out. I on the other hand say you can use both because the spiritual aspect of it's meaning is just a long amount of time so the literal can fit within that time frame.

5. If you make the 1000 years not literal as in man's time then you cannot make the day in man's time. But that is the way that it is used or at least the perception and the implication.

6. Do you think you can prove from Peter that the 1000 years is pointed straight at a literal meaning of God's timing only and connect it to the 1000 years of the tribulation.

7. You cannot connect the context of Revelation 20 with anything in the church era right now directly and specifically being the 1000 years because today is not the Day of the Lord or the Day of God. Try it.
Yes the authors knew the 1000 years was literal.You are leaning on a false premise and do not either understand Jewish belief about eternality of the covenants for them or you are just following the RC doctrine. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

but the election hath obtaine it, and the rest were blinded

Jerry this text plainly states there are two groups of Israelites, instead of one as you keep claiming.
.

baberean,

1. Are you purposely staying in the dark or do you just not understand context?
Israel as a nation has not a part of the election because they were blinded. The nation had already rejected Jesus in his ministry. Matthew 23:37-39

2. The KoH concerning Israel was not being in offered in the early church because Christ told his disciples to their question about him restoring the kingdom at that time and he said it was not for them to know that which only the father hath put in his own power.

3. We know after Calvary that the program with God was the church of jews and gentiles in one body. This is why they were not to be concerned about their position in the kingdom according to their covenants. Jesus never said they would not fulfill their covenant at all.

4. The early church had nothing to do with Israel as a nation having a second chance for this will not happen to them the second time he comes.

5. On the Day of Pentecost they had like signs but it was not a fulfillment of Jewish covenant of the kingdom because they didn't rule the nations. This is why the 1000 years has to be spiritualized and say Christ is reigning through the church over the nations now. This is ridiculous and cannot be proven at all because nations do as they please and have more power than religious factors such as the RCC which is a denomination that hides behind the word of "universal" as a spokesman of the real church over all. This theology of Peter's apostolic succession is not scriptural and is why it is replacement theology because it puts the church in Israel's place of the covenants.

6. So there is no scripture that says or implies and there is no scenario that you can accurately and properly point to the 1000 years being a doctrine of the church and their reign is now. It is nothing short of an abuse of certain old testament scriptures that do not agree with the true meaning of jewish eschatology to those who understand the true picture of the church and Israel as a nation. Believe it or not. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70,

1. Israel is where the jews come from and by bloodline they are still jews and can be called Israel in this context.

Whatever the context, Today's Jews are no more descendants of Abraham than you or I.

The remnant of obedient Israel WAS RESTORED, and that this remnant were the jewish followers of Jesus (the jewish apostles etc. etc.). Why the premils count the disobedient sons as the True Israel is beyond all my understanding. Moses had foretold that the jewish sons that refused to listen to Jesus would be "destroyed from among the people" (Acts 3:22-24). That is exactly what happened. The disobedient sons of Abraham were the branches that were cut off off the olive tree, Israel (Romans 11:17-24; Mt 21:40-45). Believing gentiles join into the olive tree, Israel (Romans 11:17-24).

Today Judaism is a post Christian religion, not a race. The true faith of Abraham, and true Israel, passed to Christ and his followers. That's what historically took place.

The "remnant" was the true believing Israel, and the olive tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of that Israel. Unbelieving jews were cut off (Acts 3:22-24), and believing gentiles joined into believing jewish Israel (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish church, etc.). All the elect of Israel are saved, and that Israel corresponds to the now jewish/gentile Church of Jesus the Messiah.

Premils assert that "Israel rejected Christ" and also say that "The Church isn't Israel." This premil view is arrived at by counting the unbelievers as true Israel and by saying that the obedient jews (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish believers in christ) are "the Church but not Israel." The premils have it precisely backwards: the obedient jews (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish believers in christ) are true Israel and the disobedient are cut off from among that true Israel (Acts 3:22-24/Romans 11:17-24).

 

[ewq1938]

Psalm 50:10's a thousand is not meant to be understood as a literal 1000 and neither is Peter's a thousand years meant to be a literal 1000 years.

Peter uses a literal thousand years, as well as a literal day. There is no evidence that Rev 20's use of a thousand years is less or more than a thousand. Citing unrelated examples from a different culture and language is not evidence. Rev gives exact times in years and months and days.

 

[jerry kelso]

Whatever the context, Today's Jews are no more descendants of Abraham than you or I.

The remnant of obedient Israel WAS RESTORED, and that this remnant were the jewish followers of Jesus (the jewish apostles etc. etc.). Why the premils count the disobedient sons as the True Israel is beyond all my understanding. Moses had foretold that the jewish sons that refused to listen to Jesus would be "destroyed from among the people" (Acts 3:22-24). That is exactly what happened. The disobedient sons of Abraham were the branches that were cut off off the olive tree, Israel (Romans 11:17-24; Mt 21:40-45). Believing gentiles join into the olive tree, Israel (Romans 11:17-24).

Today Judaism is a post Christian religion, not a race. The true faith of Abraham, and true Israel, passed to Christ and his followers. That's what historically took place.

The "remnant" was the true believing Israel, and the olive tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of that Israel. Unbelieving jews were cut off (Acts 3:22-24), and believing gentiles joined into believing jewish Israel (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish church, etc.). All the elect of Israel are saved, and that Israel corresponds to the now jewish/gentile Church of Jesus the Messiah.

Premils assert that "Israel rejected Christ" and also say that "The Church isn't Israel." This premil view is arrived at by counting the unbelievers as true Israel and by saying that the obedient jews (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish believers in christ) are "the Church but not Israel." The premils have it precisely backwards: the obedient jews (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish believers in christ) are true Israel and the disobedient are cut off from among that true Israel (Acts 3:22-24/Romans 11:17-24).

parousia70,

1. Israel is still a physical descendant of Abraham. The gentiles were never a physical descendant of Abraham and are not now. What part of this don't you understand?

2. The jewish nation never existed before Abraham because it came out of his loins to preserve the Messiah. Gentiles have always existed before that physically.

3. Spiritually gentiles never had a covenant with God such as the jewish nation and they had to be proselyted into Judaism to be saved in the old covenant.

4. Because of the cross the gentiles were grafted into the olive tree of which Israel was the natural branches and gentile were a wild olive tree.

5. Since Israel disobeyed the spiritual KoG was given to the gentiles and the spiritual jews that accepted the cross message and they were made twain one new man.

6. This spiritual aspect of the KoG and the church era doesn't abrogate the covenants of Abraham and David according to the nation of Israel. Spiritual jews after the cross are a part of the church and not the nation of Israel under the new covenant because the nation is still blinded. They are in the nation of Israel physically because they are a physical jew.
You are trying to say the spiritual jew does away with the physical jew if they don't believe and that is not true.

7. The remnant of Israel was not restored in Paul's day otherwise the nation of Israel would have been ruling and reigning. The remnant in Romans 11:5 was the elected jews that were a part of the church because it was the election of grace and not because of election of the law of Moses or because they were no longer a physical jew or in connection with the remnant of the nation in the book of Revelation where 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 be brought through the fire (Zechariah 13:9). Those jews being saved weren't going through the fire in Paul's day and the disobedient jews were not being cut off because of direct punishment of God.

8. Judaism of the jews are still lost in the old testament and connected to the old testament ethic and belief and not the new covenant. Judaism according to the jewish new covenant belief is true judaism.

9. All Israel being saved is not the church because the nation of Israel is not the church physically and the covenants to Israel are to the physical nation who is living for God and that will happen in the tribulation so they can receive the kingdom.

10. Israel are true physical descendants, but they are not true Israel as spiritual believers.
Jewish believers today are in Christ, in the church era and will be at Christ coming raptured as a member of the church and will be at the marriage supper of the lamb. Even the tribulation saints that are martyred will be in time for the marriage supper of the lamb and will come out of heaven with Christ and his saints to war at the battle of Armageddon. The remnant in Revelation is in the tribulation and the rest of the nation is preserved in the wilderness and all Israel will be saved at the end of the tribulation. The sun-clothed woman who is Israel and the remnant jews who don't make it to the wilderness to be preserved. This is who will make up the nation of Israel and earthly jews of the KoH reign. Christ will be the main ruler and David will rule over the nation specifically as King and Abraham will have his part in the kingdom etc. The church will have rulership positions in the kingdom but Israel will be the nation of where Christ will rule and reign for that is their destiny through their covenants of Abraham and Israel. Isaiah 2:2-4. You can't overcome this scriptural truth.

11. If you think the church is going to be the nation over the kingdoms of the world and the capitol of the world explain how this will be. Jerry kelso