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Paul of Eugene OR

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They'd probably pick some new religion to take its place. Something with apocalyptic end-of-the-world scenarios, atonement rituals, lots of guilt, holy days, food restrictions, etc.

Environmentalism, perhaps. It has all of this. You get to feel really guilty just because you breathe CO2, get to engage in meaningless penance rituals such as recycling, and you even have holy days like Earth Day. Plus you get to look at other people, cluck your tongue, and shun them for failing to believe in the nonsense you do.

But . . . but . . . what about the evidence for global warming?

See, we humans respond to ideas in patterns that echo from one kind of idea to another. But not all ideas are equal in how they resonate with reality. It's no big deal if the patterns are similar. The big deal is the truth of the idea behind the patterns.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I don't believe that "extincted" is a word. Of course, your entire post is riddled with inaccuracies. You said, "Like evolutionists do with Christians?" – do you know the difference between like and as? When you say "Look at them and cluck their tongue" are you suggesting that all evolutionists share one single tongue? Or are you using "tongue" to mean language – as though all evolutionists have a common tongue? Or what?

Take a moment and reign in the chaos that rages within your mind. Then, take a deep breath, and say something coherent.

Take in the moment to reign in yours. Shall we now apply your same reasoning to your own statements????

When you said "Look at them and cluck their tongue" were you suggesting that all Christians share one single tongue? Or are you using "tongue" to mean language – as though all Christians have a common tongue? Or what?

Ahh I see - that only applies too others and never to yourself, right? Funny you had no problem understanding what you meant when you used clucking of tongues, but when applied to yourself your understanding suddenly becomes non-existent.

"You said, "Like evolutionists do with Christians?" – do you know the difference between like and as?"

Do you?

http://www.grammarly.com/handbook/grammar/adjectives-and-adverbs/26/misuse-of-like-and-as/

"Most of the time, “like” compares two things.

Imagine a grown woman acting as a child.

Here, we’re comparing two things (the woman and the child), so like should be used.

Imagine a grown woman acting like a child."

Here we are comparing two things (evolutionists and Christians). So like should be used to compare the two not as.

Your avoidance tactics are not only incorrect, but simply used to try to ignore the comparison that you yourself started and now refuse to apply to yourself.

"I don't believe that "extincted" is a word."

You would be wrong there too.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/extinct.html

So we find in reality you were wrong in all cases and one in which you simply chose not to understand when you had no problem understanding what clucking of tongues meant when you applied it to others, just for some reason your understanding failed when applied to yourself. So let's talk about those inaccuracies you claim apply to others when it was you yourself that engaged in inaccuracies.
 
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Zosimus

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Take in the moment to reign in yours. Shall we now apply your same reasoning to your own statements????

When you said "Look at them and cluck their tongue" were you suggesting that all Christians share one single tongue? Or are you using "tongue" to mean language – as though all Christians have a common tongue? Or what?

Ahh I see - that only applies too others and never to yourself, right? Funny you had no problem understanding what you meant when you used clucking of tongues, but when applied to yourself your understanding suddenly becomes non-existent.

"You said, "Like evolutionists do with Christians?" – do you know the difference between like and as?"

Do you?

http://www.grammarly.com/handbook/grammar/adjectives-and-adverbs/26/misuse-of-like-and-as/

"Most of the time, “like” compares two things.

Imagine a grown woman acting as a child.

Here, we’re comparing two things (the woman and the child), so like should be used.

Imagine a grown woman acting like a child."

Here we are comparing two things (evolutionists and Christians). So like should be used to compare the two not as.

Your avoidance tactics are not only incorrect, but simply used to try to ignore the comparison that you yourself started and now refuse to apply to yourself.

"I don't believe that "extincted" is a word."

You would be wrong there too.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/extinct.html

So we find in reality you were wrong in all cases and one in which you simply chose not to understand when you had no problem understanding what clucking of tongues meant when you applied it to others, just for some reason your understanding failed when applied to yourself. So let's talk about those inaccuracies you claim apply to others when it was you yourself that engaged in inaccuracies.
It turns out that when you look at something called a dictionary, you get the meaning of words. Here's an example:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extinct?s=t

extinct: Adjective. No longer in existence.

Since extinct is an adjective, it has neither a past form nor a past participle.

In fact, when I went to your own website and did a verb search for "extinct" the page told me:

Verb: extinct
The submitted verb form could not be analyzed as a verb form.

There's a simple reason for this. Extinct is not a verb.
----------------
Next, let's deal with your confusion over as vs. like.

Using your own link

http://www.grammarly.com/handbook/grammar/adjectives-and-adverbs/26/misuse-of-like-and-as/


No one makes chocolate cake like my mother does. (WRONG)

Because there is a verb after like (does), the conjunction as should be used. It’s easy to say that about this sentence because as can be replaced by the way.
-------------------
Accordingly when you said: "Like evolutionists do with Christians" that is wrong, because like is followed by a verb. Because there is a verb after like (do), the conjunction as should be used.

Now personally, I would be embarrassed if my own link refuted my point of view, but you're probably used to it.
-------------------
Finally, if you look at my own sentence it was clear:

"You get to feel really guilty just because you breathe CO2, get to engage in meaningless penance rituals such as recycling, and you even have holy days like Earth Day. Plus you get to look at other people, cluck your tongue, and shun them for failing to believe in the nonsense you do."

You (one person) get to... cluck your tongue (one person has one tongue), and shun them (other people) for failing to believe in the nonsense you (one person) do.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Not to fan the grammar fire too much, but you realize you can take any word at all and get it "verbed" at verbix, right? Like I have been bananaing about for some time now. http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/banana.html

Works in Scrabble.

But of course he was merely trying to avoid the subject that he himself brought up about apocalyptic scenarios being confined to Christians when they abound in the scientific literature. The entire point of my post which he avoided discussing. As you seem to be avoiding. So fine if you insist "they went extinct" from those meteors or comets.


But let's get back to those apocalyptic beliefs that by implication in his usage is confined only to believers in religion.

So fine, the grimmer was incorrect - which changes nothing in the avoidance of those scenario's that abound in the scientific literature of past and future.

I hope that clarification makes everyone feel better?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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It turns out that when you look at something called a dictionary, you get the meaning of words. Here's an example:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extinct?s=t

extinct: Adjective. No longer in existence.

Since extinct is an adjective, it has neither a past form nor a past participle.

In fact, when I went to your own website and did a verb search for "extinct" the page told me:

Verb: extinct
The submitted verb form could not be analyzed as a verb form.

There's a simple reason for this. Extinct is not a verb.
----------------
Next, let's deal with your confusion over as vs. like.

Using your own link

http://www.grammarly.com/handbook/grammar/adjectives-and-adverbs/26/misuse-of-like-and-as/


No one makes chocolate cake like my mother does. (WRONG)

Because there is a verb after like (does), the conjunction as should be used. It’s easy to say that about this sentence because as can be replaced by the way.
-------------------
Accordingly when you said: "Like evolutionists do with Christians" that is wrong, because like is followed by a verb. Because there is a verb after like (do), the conjunction as should be used.

Now personally, I would be embarrassed if my own link refuted my point of view, but you're probably used to it.
-------------------
Finally, if you look at my own sentence it was clear:

"You get to feel really guilty just because you breathe CO2, get to engage in meaningless penance rituals such as recycling, and you even have holy days like Earth Day. Plus you get to look at other people, cluck your tongue, and shun them for failing to believe in the nonsense you do."

You (one person) get to... cluck your tongue (one person has one tongue), and shun them (other people) for failing to believe in the nonsense you (one person) do.

I don't feel guilty at all.

I click my tongue at no one - just point out evolutionists seem to keep ignoring the observational evidence.

To be quite frank I could care less if you believe in God or not - I shook the dust from my feet and moved on long ago. That's between you and Him.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-14.htm

I'm just asking why they insist we all ignore the observational evidence of how life propagates and variation is actually observed to occur in the species?

What about the large variations we observe - do we ignore that?

Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian and African mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Asian does not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor does the African evolve into the Afro-Asian.

Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky and Mastiff mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Husky does not evolve into the Chinook nor does the Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.

Brown bears mate with Brown bears and produce ONLY Brown bears, Bottle-nosed dolphin mate with Bottle-nosed dolphin and produce ONLY Bottle-nosed dolphin, This is true for every animal in existence.

The problem lies in interpretation. If evolutionists had never seen a dog and knew nothing about them and found fossils of the Mastiff and Husky and then later in the layer found fossils of the Chinook, they would insist that either the Husky or the Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. We know from direct observation this is not what occurred, even if the Chinook appears later in the record. Worse yet, they would insist the Husky, Mastiff and Chinook were all separate species - simply because their appearances were different. Just as they have done in the fossil record.

These:

images


are no different than these:

small-dog-breeds-17.jpg


Merely different infraspecific taxa in the species or Kind to which they belong - not separate species. They have simply ignored the observational evidence when it came time to classify the fossil record and have incorrectly classified 90% of the creatures that existed as separate species.

The only changes we observe are limited changes within each infraspecific taxa. Asian supposedly undergo 50 mutations per birth - but those mutations are limited to the Asian infraspecific taxa. As any that occur in the African population are limited to the African population. And are so minor (if that tiny change is actually due to mutation and not simply dominant and recessive genes), that the changes are basically unnoticeable. Only when Asian mate with African for example - have we ever observed variation within the "species."

Never have we observed changes in the "species" because of any supposed mutations. Only when two or more infraspecific taxa within the species mate - are changes observed in the "species" itself. Yet this variation in the species is ignored as having any consequence in the ToE, because all observations of how species propagate and variation in the species occurs is ignored.

Those single celled organisms never change no matter how many mutations they undergo - because they receive no genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the species to which they belong. Hence E coli after billions of generations and billions of mutations remained E coli, because they never receive genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the bacterial "species" to which they belong.

Even fruit flies remain fruit flies - no matter how many times you mutate them. Another infraspecific taxa in the fly species will only occur when those fruit flies interbreed with another infraspecific taxa within the fly species to which they belong.

The problem is that in the fossil record they label everything slightly different as a separate "species", instead of correctly labeling them as separate infraspecific taxa within the "species."

But maybe you can find wrong verb usages here too and also ignore the point of the entire post.
 
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Zosimus

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I don't feel guilty at all.

I click my tongue at no one - just point out evolutionists seem to keep ignoring the observational evidence.
Don't click your tongue; cluck it.

To be quite frank I could care less if you believe in God or not - I shook the dust from my feet and moved on long ago. That's between you and Him.
I assume that anyone who starts a sentence with "To be quite frank" is lying.
You say that you could care less. Don't you mean that you couldn't care less?
Why do you say "if you believe in God or not" rather than just "whether you believe in God?" Do you enjoy wordiness?
Anyway, I don't disbelieve in God. I'm agnostic.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-14.htm

I'm just asking why they insist we all ignore the observational evidence of how life propagates and variation is actually observed to occur in the species?
I'm just asking that before you throw around the word "they" that you specify who or what they is. Is that too much to ask?

What about the large variations we observe - do we ignore that?
What kind of variations? I was given to believe that biological evolution merely stipulated that the frequency of alleles changes from generation to generation. If that's true, then variation is to be expected.

Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian and African mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Asian does not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor does the African evolve into the Afro-Asian.
I think that before you can say that you need a clear, objective test to separate "Asian" from "African" that can be used by a blinded volunteer with 95 percent accuracy.

Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky and Mastiff mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Husky does not evolve into the Chinook nor does the Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.
Just as one needs an objective test for Asian vs. African, so one needs an objective test for Husky vs. Mastiff.

Brown bears mate with Brown bears and produce ONLY Brown bears, Bottle-nosed dolphin mate with Bottle-nosed dolphin and produce ONLY Bottle-nosed dolphin, This is true for every animal in existence.

The problem lies in interpretation. If evolutionists had never seen a dog and knew nothing about them and found fossils of the Mastiff and Husky and then later in the layer found fossils of the Chinook, they would insist that either the Husky or the Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. We know from direct observation this is not what occurred, even if the Chinook appears later in the record. Worse yet, they would insist the Husky, Mastiff and Chinook were all separate species - simply because their appearances were different. Just as they have done in the fossil record.
In that sense, I agree with you. The definition of "species" is so nebulous that it has no real meaning–an argument I've made here repeatedly.

These:

images


are no different than these:

small-dog-breeds-17.jpg
In English we say "different from" and some British people say "different to" but it's never "different than."

Merely different infraspecific taxa in the species or Kind to which they belong - not separate species. They have simply ignored the observational evidence when it came time to classify the fossil record and have incorrectly classified 90% of the creatures that existed as separate species.
Perhaps so, but remember that most of the classification was done by creationist Christians pre-Darwinism.

The only changes we observe are limited changes within each infraspecific taxa. Asian supposedly undergo 50 mutations per birth - but those mutations are limited to the Asian infraspecific taxa. As any that occur in the African population are limited to the African population. And are so minor (if that tiny change is actually due to mutation and not simply dominant and recessive genes), that the changes are basically unnoticeable. Only when Asian mate with African for example - have we ever observed variation within the "species."
Again, this goes back to having a clear, indisputable, and universally-agreed upon meaning of the word "species."

Never have we observed changes in the "species" because of any supposed mutations. Only when two or more infraspecific taxa within the species mate - are changes observed in the "species" itself. Yet this variation in the species is ignored as having any consequence in the ToE, because all observations of how species propagate and variation in the species occurs is ignored.
Preaching to the choir.

Those single celled organisms never change no matter how many mutations they undergo - because they receive no genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the species to which they belong. Hence E coli after billions of generations and billions of mutations remained E coli, because they never receive genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the bacterial "species" to which they belong.
Well, not necessarily. Some bacteria have evolved to eat nylon. Of course, they were not E. coli bacteria but flavobacterium.

Even fruit flies remain fruit flies - no matter how many times you mutate them. Another infraspecific taxa in the fly species will only occur when those fruit flies interbreed with another infraspecific taxa within the fly species to which they belong.
I'm sure you realize that fruit flies have been defined into multiple species. As to whether this definition is justified and justifiable, that remains to be seen.

The problem is that in the fossil record they label everything slightly different as a separate "species", instead of correctly labeling them as separate infraspecific taxa within the "species."
This is an incorrect use of the phrase "instead of," which is used for substitution. The correct phrase is "rather than," which also has the benefit of maintaining the parallelism.

They label...
rather than label...

is superior to:

They label...
instead of labeling...

Can you see how the second choice destroys the parallelism? It's like saying "I like swimming and to dance." It's just not parallel.

But maybe you can find wrong verb usages here too and also ignore the point of the entire post.
I certainly found wrong usages, but I didn't ignore the point of the post.
 
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Bradly Capel

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Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian and African mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Asian does not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor does the African evolve into the Afro-Asian.

Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky and Mastiff mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Husky does not evolve into the Chinook nor does the Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.

Brown bears mate with Brown bears and produce ONLY Brown bears, Bottle-nosed dolphin mate with Bottle-nosed dolphin and produce ONLY Bottle-nosed dolphin, This is true for every animal in existence.
The question that was asked when this was posted before still stands unanswered.
What race was Noah and his family? how did all the different races come from those 8 people? after all..........
Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African.
Don't tell me.. it was another miracle.
And we are expected to have effective debates and discussions about Christianity, would someone please tell me how?
 
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Zosimus

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The question that was asked when this was posted before still stands unanswered.
What race was Noah and his family? how did all the different races come from those 8 people? after all..........
Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African.
Don't tell me.. it was another miracle.
And we are expected to have effective debates and discussions about Christianity, would someone please tell me how?
Let me get this straight.

You think that all the different human races came from ape-like ancestors, but you have a problem with 8 humans producing offspring?

Obviously Noah was Semitic, as were his three sons. Each of those sons had wives. What races were the wives? I have no effing idea. The book doesn't say.

Legend has it that Ham (Cam in Spanish) was married to a black woman, but this is apocryphal.
 
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SkyWriting

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In your opinion, what are the chances of a YEC entering a secular college or university today and graduating as a YEC after getting a degree in life sciences?

Likely the same as leaving with the same major as started with
the same amount of alcohol consumed
the same number of std's
or getting a job in your field of study.

Likely sexual orientation remained similar.
 
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SkyWriting

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What race was Noah and his family? how did all the different races come from those 8 people? after all..........Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African.

There is a lot of variability in humans.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Don't click your tongue; cluck it.


I assume that anyone who starts a sentence with "To be quite frank" is lying.
You say that you could care less. Don't you mean that you couldn't care less?
Why do you say "if you believe in God or not" rather than just "whether you believe in God?" Do you enjoy wordiness?
Anyway, I don't disbelieve in God. I'm agnostic.

Then you dont believe in God either - but as I said - that's between you and Him.

So were you just being wordy while avoiding the entire point of the post???

I assume anyone that attempts to avoid is lying as well and also deluding themselves, which is why they never actually get around to answering the point of the posts but just digress.


I'm just asking that before you throw around the word "they" that you specify who or what they is. Is that too much to ask?

If you don't ignore the observational evidence then you won't be part of "they" will you so should have nothing to worry about.


What kind of variations? I was given to believe that biological evolution merely stipulated that the frequency of alleles changes from generation to generation. If that's true, then variation is to be expected.

Certainly not mutational.


I think that before you can say that you need a clear, objective test to separate "Asian" from "African" that can be used by a blinded volunteer with 95 percent accuracy.

I'm pretty sure if you can't tell the difference just by looking then you would simply be deluding yourself - or refusing to see.
But then those blinded tests by volunteers are supposedly have already been done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation


Just as one needs an objective test for Asian vs. African, so one needs an objective test for Husky vs. Mastiff.
They've been done too, so what's your excuse for claiming they still need done?

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/1/81.full


In that sense, I agree with you. The definition of "species" is so nebulous that it has no real meaning–an argument I've made here repeatedly.

Oh there is nothing nebulous about it - just people that choose to ignore the definitions as already provided.


In English we say "different from" and some British people say "different to" but it's never "different than."

As I said: "But maybe you can find wrong verb usages here too and also ignore the point of the entire post."


Perhaps so, but remember that most of the classification was done by creationist Christians pre-Darwinism.
If you say so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology)
"With the advent of such fields of study as phylogenetics, cladistics, and systematics, the Linnaean system has progressed to a system of modern biological classification based on the evolutionary relationships between organisms, both living and extinct."

"These were pre-evolutionary in thinking. The publication of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species (1859) led to new ways of thinking about classification based on evolutionary relationships. This was the concept of "phyletic systems, from 1883 onwards. This approach was typified by those of Eichler (1883) and Engler (1886–1892). The advent of molecular genetics and statistical methodology allowed the creation of the modern era of "phylogenetic systems" based on cladistics, rather than morphology alone."

So it really has nothing to do with what it started as.


Again, this goes back to having a clear, indisputable, and universally-agreed upon meaning of the word "species."

No, it just means to stop ignoring animals that are interbreeding and producing fertile offspring in front of your very eyes - and still insisting they are separate species because someone once classified them before they were known to interbreed. Then refusing to correct those mistakes once they observed it with their own eyes.


Preaching to the choir.

Can't tell, You sure are trying to discount the entire thing.


[/quote]Well, not necessarily. Some bacteria have evolved to eat nylon. Of course, they were not E. coli bacteria but flavobacterium.[/quote]

And are still flavobacterium, your point being? So no matter how many mutations they underwent they too remained flavobacterium. Sounds like nothing but another diversion to avoid the point. E coli, flavobacterium, whatever, never become anything but what they started as. You simply proved my point without realizing you were doing so in your attempt to avoid the point. I appreciate it, thanks.


I'm sure you realize that fruit flies have been defined into multiple species. As to whether this definition is justified and justifiable, that remains to be seen.

If you say so. Is that like classifying birds that interbreed before their eyes separate species too?
But actually they have only been classified as subgroups within the species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drosophila_melanogaster_species_group

Their way of avoiding their own classification system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

"Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into "infraspecific taxa" such as subspecies (and in botany other taxa are used, such as varieties, subvarieties, and formae)."



This is an incorrect use of the phrase "instead of," which is used for substitution. The correct phrase is "rather than," which also has the benefit of maintaining the parallelism.

They label...
rather than label...

is superior to:

They label...
instead of labeling...

Can you see how the second choice destroys the parallelism? It's like saying "I like swimming and to dance." It's just not parallel.


I certainly found wrong usages, but I didn't ignore the point of the post.

If you say so. Yet that addresses nothing in the point of the post itself which was the wrong classification of infraspecific taxa within the species as separate species. So yes, it does ignore the point. Since you failed to address the actual point, but choose to concern yourself with word usage. Which might be valid if the subject of the post was word usage. Then that would have addressed the point of the post.

But let's try your suggestions.

"The problem is that in the fossil record they label everything slightly different as a separate "species", rather than correctly labeling them as separate infraspecific taxa within the "species.""

So now would you care to address the point? Or digress again?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The question that was asked when this was posted before still stands unanswered.
What race was Noah and his family? how did all the different races come from those 8 people? after all..........
Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African.
Don't tell me.. it was another miracle.
And we are expected to have effective debates and discussions about Christianity, would someone please tell me how?

Already answered. You are participating in that post so there should be no excuse for any such claims by you about not having been answered.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-evolution-our-achilless-heel.7921010/page-6#post-68949594
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-evolution-our-achilless-heel.7921010/page-6#post-68949607


So we have seen in the last 100 years over 100 breeds of dog arise from mating and exactly zero from mutation, yet you favor mutation over interbreeding between different infraspecific taxa??? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning???

It's because you ignore your own definitions so you have problems understanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
"Presence of specific locally adapted traits may further subdivide species into "infraspecific taxa" such as subspecies (and in botany other taxa are used, such as varieties, subvarieties, and formae)."

Stop ignoring those locally adapted traits because of geographical isolation, etc. that create the infraspecific taxa in the species and you wont be so confused. Stop trying to divide all those locally adapted traits that create infraspecific taxa as separate species and you wont be so confused. Stop calling birds that interbreed and produce fertile offspring right in front of your eyes separate species or the same species depending on whim and you wont be so confused.

Stop pretending mutation is anything other than what it is and you wont be so confused.

What Mutation Is

But even more importantly stop pretending that the genome is evolving into more complexity when it is doing the exact opposite - losing information through mutation.

It seems the only people that understand what mutation actually does are those involved in plant and animal husbandry who actually worked with mutation in plants and animals - and they have all but given up on it as a cause for anything.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf
 
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Hoghead1

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Now just a minute, Justatruthseeker, you comment about the scientists and the husky is way, way off base about how scientists go about their work. The layering is important because it tells you which came first. This is commonsense. When you look at a building, it's obvious the foundation was put in before the top. Some with layering. So if dogs were found in that order in the layering, the assumption of the evolutionists would be correct. However, since that isn't the way dogs developed, there won't be any layering like you describe, to start with. So your argument is totally bogus.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Now just a minute, Justatruthseeker, you comment about the scientists and the husky is way, way off base about how scientists go about their work. The layering is important because it tells you which came first. This is commonsense. When you look at a building, it's obvious the foundation was put in before the top. Some with layering. So if dogs were found in that order in the layering, the assumption of the evolutionists would be correct. However, since that isn't the way dogs developed, there won't be any layering like you describe, to start with. So your argument is totally bogus.

The only thing off-base and bogus is your refusal to accept the evidence. At no time in the historical record will the Chinook be found to exist before the early 1900's, because the Mastiff and Husky had not been breed before then. Yet we can find bones of both the Husky and the Mastiff before this time. It is delusional and dishonest of you to attempt to portray the reality other than as we observe. The Poodle will not be found in the same layer or time as the Mastiff either.

Stop ignoring the evidence to promote your false beliefs, when the direct empirical evidence falsifies every claim you just made. Not only are you being dishonest - but you are intentionally misstating facts to suit your system of beliefs.

The Chinook can not be found in any of the earlier time periods because it did not exist until after the 1900's when the Husky breed with the Mastiff. Only an evolutionist would refuse to accept what we know is fact in favor of their fantasy and then attempt to convince others of exactly the opposite of what we have observed.

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/chinook/detail/

"The Chinook Breed was developed by Polar Explorer Arthur Treadwell Walden during the early 1900's on his farm in Wanalancet New Hampshire."

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/mastiff/detail/

"Caesar described Mastiffs in his account of invading Britain in 55 BC."

So were you completely mistaken about it appearing in the record at a latter time than the Mastiff or lying to everyone? I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Probably the same as evolutionists, without their religion.
Well, aside from my field of study being drastically changed, I would not care about evolution being disproven all that much. It isn't like I have an effigy to Charles Darwin in my house. I appreciate the theory for its contributions, but a disproven theory must leave science behind and be left in memory, no matter how long it has stood the test of time previously.

Evolution certainly isn't dear to my heart by any means, I respect it, but I don't actually love it.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I don't feel guilty at all.

I click my tongue at no one - just point out evolutionists seem to keep ignoring the observational evidence.
We aren't ignoring the observational evidence, because if we did, evolution as a theory wouldn't even exist. At best, we are both looking at the same evidence and interpreting it differently. At worst, both sides are being spoonfed completely. Reality is probably some middle ground between those, and it varies from person to person. However, we aren't ignoring it if we claim it's wrong, because we'd have to know what it is to do that.
To be quite frank I could care less if you believe in God or not - I shook the dust from my feet and moved on long ago. That's between you and Him.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-14.htm
That would be interesting, but here's the issue with saying that: if you don't factor in belief with creationism, that means all your arguments have to equally validate all ideas of creationism, including those that aren't based in Christianity. Obviously, you don't do that. For someone to agree with your position completely, they have to be in the same religion as you.
I'm just asking why they insist we all ignore the observational evidence of how life propagates and variation is actually observed to occur in the species?

What about the large variations we observe - do we ignore that?
Large variations are often the product of smaller variations building up over time, or in some cases, mutations in significant genes. Yes, single gene changes can have a huge impact, they just don't account for most of the big changes we see.
Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian and African mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Asian does not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor does the African evolve into the Afro-Asian.
Not this again; seriously, you can get people that look more "Asian" through a couple of purely African roots. It could even happen in a single generation by chance, depending on what group in Africa you look at.
Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky and Mastiff mate is variation seen within the species or Kind. The Husky does not evolve into the Chinook nor does the Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/93/2b/42/932b4217efb175f183468a2ec618a2bc.jpg well, Chinooks and Mastiffs may not be directly related, but Labrador Retrievers did come from Tibetian Mastiffs. So this http://dgicdplf3pvka.cloudfront.net/images/dogbreeds/large/Labrador-Retriever.jpg has ancestors like this http://artakridaperkasa.weebly.com/uploads/4/0/4/0/40405817/8517026_orig.jpg .
Brown bears mate with Brown bears and produce ONLY Brown bears, Bottle-nosed dolphin mate with Bottle-nosed dolphin and produce ONLY Bottle-nosed dolphin, This is true for every animal in existence.
Only if you look at one generation. Additionally, those offspring will have mutations that neither of their parents have, so yes, they are slightly different. I don't know the mutation rate for dolphins, but in humans, your children will have between 40-60 mutations that neither yourself nor your significant other have. Most of them will be on junk that does nothing, but sometimes they do impact genes. It can be negative, such as with cystic fibrosis. It can be positive, such as being less prone to heart disease. It can be functionally neutral, such as changing eye color. The fact of the matter is, mutation happens, and you can easily observe it.

The problem lies in interpretation. If evolutionists had never seen a dog and knew nothing about them and found fossils of the Mastiff and Husky and then later in the layer found fossils of the Chinook, they would insist that either the Husky or the Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. We know from direct observation this is not what occurred, even if the Chinook appears later in the record. Worse yet, they would insist the Husky, Mastiff and Chinook were all separate species - simply because their appearances were different. Just as they have done in the fossil record.

These:

images


are no different than these:

small-dog-breeds-17.jpg

Well sure, they would look very similar if you just look at their heads, and don't look at the rest of their bodies or account for the fact that most of those dinosaurs didn't live at the same time at all. Do you really think this dinosaur on that list https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ptoceratops_BW.jpg/220px-Leptoceratops_BW.jpg
is the same as this one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Centrosaurus_BW.jpg when you can actually see their body proportions? http://img06.deviantart.net/9478/i/2011/338/b/9/styracosaurus_by_pheaston-d4i63ny.jpg and
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/files/2013/01/Montanoceratops-new.jpg lived five million years apart from each other, and the former was nearly twice the size of the latter.
Merely different infraspecific taxa in the species or Kind to which they belong - not separate species. They have simply ignored the observational evidence when it came time to classify the fossil record and have incorrectly classified 90% of the creatures that existed as separate species.

The only changes we observe are limited changes within each infraspecific taxa. Asian supposedly undergo 50 mutations per birth - but those mutations are limited to the Asian infraspecific taxa. As any that occur in the African population are limited to the African population. And are so minor (if that tiny change is actually due to mutation and not simply dominant and recessive genes), that the changes are basically unnoticeable. Only when Asian mate with African for example - have we ever observed variation within the "species."
If all those dinosaurs you listed are within different infraspecific taxa, then chimpanzees are just hairy humans, and chickens are T-rexes. The differences between them are not as minor as just seeing their heads would suggest. Practically all predatory birds would look the same if you drew them the same color, presented only their heads, and gave no mind to physical size comparisons. Except for owls, owls are pretty distinct.
Never have we observed changes in the "species" because of any supposed mutations. Only when two or more infraspecific taxa within the species mate - are changes observed in the "species" itself. Yet this variation in the species is ignored as having any consequence in the ToE, because all observations of how species propagate and variation in the species occurs is ignored.
That's just blatantly incorrect, as per bacteria experiments in lab.
Those single celled organisms never change no matter how many mutations they undergo - because they receive no genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the species to which they belong. Hence E coli after billions of generations and billions of mutations remained E coli, because they never receive genomes from another infraspecific taxa in the bacterial "species" to which they belong.
Well, you manage to be wrong on all accounts here. Interesting thing about bacteria; they are such flexible organisms, that they can take surface proteins from dead bacteria that are highly different from themselves, and add them to their physiology. Hence why harmless bacteria can become infectious when they are in an environment containing dead infectious bacteria. So not only can bacteria change without mating outside of their taxa, they can do it with exposure to dead bacteria different from themselves.

Outside of that, nearly every bacterial evolution study shows bacteria derived from only one specific genetic line adapting and changing as a result of a different controlled environment. If what you said was actually true, then antibiotic resistance would not be an issue.
Even fruit flies remain fruit flies - no matter how many times you mutate them. Another infraspecific taxa in the fly species will only occur when those fruit flies interbreed with another infraspecific taxa within the fly species to which they belong.

The problem is that in the fossil record they label everything slightly different as a separate "species", instead of correctly labeling them as separate infraspecific taxa within the "species."

But maybe you can find wrong verb usages here too and also ignore the point of the entire post.
You don't think having legs where eyes should be is a significant change within one taxa? Because that is a thing that can happen. That, and every human mutation ever, given that Homo sapiens sapiens is not only the last remaining member of the genus Homo, but the only species and infraspecific taxa within it. There is a mutation that occurred within the past 100 years that makes the people lucky enough to have it have such dense bones as to never have them break unless intentionally done so. The mutation was found when someone noticed a small number of people, despite being in car accidents and other such situations, rarely had bone fractures and never had their bones fully broken. So they investigated and found the mutation. There is also a group in Italy practically incapable of having high cholesterol thanks to a mutation that puts the cells that dispose of the excess into overdrive.
 
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Hoghead1

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Look, Jusatruthseeker, you can fire all sorts of salvos of inflammatory rhetoric and character attracts at me all day long. These men absolutely nothing in a serious theological discussion. If they do mean anything , it is simply that the attacker does not have the intellectual capabilities of offering a suitable rebuttal to the opponent, and then cheats, trying to win by dumping on the opponent's character. So, if you want to make an impression on me, have me take you seriously, you need to cease and desist all hate mail. Stick to the subject. Now, having read what you said above, I'm not quite sure I understand your argument. It has no apparent logic to it. Now, maybe I missed something. So let me ask you some questions. Exactly what does your account of the Chinook, Husky, and Mastiff have to do with evolution and evolutionists blowing it? Are you trying to argue evolutionists are unaware of the order in which these breeds came to be? If so, that is most unlikely. If they occurred in a certain temporal order, then that is the way the evolutionists would find them in the layering, if there was any involved. There is no problem here.
If evolutionists never saw a dog and knew nothing about them? What kind of argument is that? It makes no sense, as I don't know of any evolutionists who have never seen a dog. Furthermore, given the conditions you spell out for the history of the Chinook, I can't see how any evolutionists would say it existed before the 1900's. You argument makes absolutely no sense here. So, give the inflammatory rhetoric a rest and take the time to more clearly spelling out your arguments.
 
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AV1611VET

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Look, Jusatruthseeker, you can fire all sorts of salvos of inflammatory rhetoric and character attracts at me all day long. These men absolutely nothing in a serious theological discussion. If they do mean anything , it is simply that the attacker does not have the intellectual capabilities of offering a suitable rebuttal to the opponent, and then cheats, trying to win by dumping on the opponent's character.
LOL

Right after you said this to me?
Hoghead1 said:
Did Paul warn us about him? The real question here is: Did Paul warn us about guys like you, people who delude themselves into thinking they know what they are talking about when they don't? I sure think he did.
How about you take your own advice too, chief?
 
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