Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[jerry kelso]

The words a thousand or the thousand when used alone do not refer to a literal one thousand. They refer to a large but unspecified number.

Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills. nkjv

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. nkjv

Revelation 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; nkjv

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. nkjv​

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire. nkjv​

Please note that the hearers of this letter by the author of Hebrews states that these hearers were already receiving a kingdom that could not be shaken. Present tense.

The a thousand years, also known as the Church age or era, which began when Jesus ascended into heaven will end at precisely the time of Jesus' second coming and this also is the time He will make new heavens and a new earth. 2 Peter 3:10-13



Satan's power was limited (metaphorically chained) by the power of Jesus' death on the cross. A spirit such as Satan cannot be literally physically chained. Satan has no physical body. Satan will be limited in power until shortly before Jesus' second coming. All the devils are doing Satan's work on earth for him while his own power is limited.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. nkjv​

There are probably as many devils (also known as demons) on earth right now as there are people on earth right now. And each person must be vigilant against the temptations of the devil or devils who are seeking to destroy him.

Revelation 1:4-6
John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed" us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings" and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. nkjv​

Jesus is reigning right now in His kingdom over all the earth and He has been reigning from there in heaven over all things everywhere ever since He ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of His Father.

Luke 23:39-43
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” nkjv​

Acts 5:31
Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. nkjv

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv​

Jesus Christ first came into His kingdom 2000 years ago at His first coming. When Jesus returns to the earth for His second coming, He will defeat physical death forever and He will then turn His kingdom over to His Father.

jan001,

1. There was never a question that the 1000 years in God's timing was not a literal 1000 years of man's time.


2. Psalm 51:10 has nothing to do with the context of Revelation 20. God own cattle on a thousand hills and more.

3. 2 Peter 3:8 has nothing to do with the context of Revelation 20. A day as a thousand years with the Lord is true but has nothing to do with the context of Revelation 20 in the fact of Satan being bound in the pit or the saints reigning in the kingdom for a 1000 years at the same time of the satan in the pit.

4. Satan being bound in the pit is a literal 1000 years just as much as the tribulation saints ruling and reigning and the actual time from the 1st to the 2 resurrections.

5. Hebrews 12:26-29: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shake may remain. This shaking is prophetic to the future (Psalm 102:26; Haggai 2:6-7).
Verse 28: Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptable with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire. This has nothing to do with the 1000 years in the future tribulation or a kingdom now for 1000 years in God's timing. The kingdom that cannot be moved right now are spiritual things but it has nothing to do with reigning physically over kingdoms which won't happen until Christ with his saints come back to war at Armageddon and defeat Satan and the antichrist armies. This context shows nothing about 1000 year reign today in our time or God's time.

6. 2 Peter 3:10-13; says nothing about 1000 years in God's timing.
Verse 8 is where it is found; But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The previous verse of verse 7 says nothing or implies a 1000 year reign today by the church. It is speaking of the present heavens and the earth reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. It was about future judgement of ungodly men. Verse 9 goes further into the though of God's 1000 years as one day where the Lord is not salck concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Now you can read into it about God's patience during this present time because the church is in this age and the church being a witness to the ungodly but that still doesn't fit the scenario of a millennial reign in this present age and definitely it has nothing to do with Revelation 20.

7. Metaphorically chained by the death of the cross is not true at all has nothing to do with Satan chained in the bottomless pit. If this is true then you would have to do away with a literal hell, a literal lake of fire and that the devil wasn't really thrown into the lake of fire.
The cross restored the KoG in the spiritual aspect and Jesus said he had the keys of hell and death. But, this didn't keep Satan from still deceiving the nations and he does now and will in the tribulation. (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Revelation 12:10 as the accuser of the brethren is still going on and will not end till the middle of the tribulation.

8. Revelation 1:4-6; He is the prince of the kings of the earth and he has also made us kings and priests unto God and his Father but this has nothing to do with a millennial kingdom physically ruling and reigning. The kingdom of 1000 years is spiritual and physical. We are being trained right now because of suffering (2 Timothy 2:12; If we suffer we shall reign. We are suffering presently and will reign in the future physical kingdom.

9. Luke 23:39-43; His kingdom was in heaven and this is true but it has nothing to do with coming back to earth and the KoH reign. (Daniel 7:13-14). The son will rule with a rod of Iron (Psalm 2:9) from Israel as the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4) and after the 1st 1000 years of the millennial kingdom he will give the kingdom back to the father so God will be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28). If Jesus kingdom is only heaven how and why will he give it back to the father when the father is already there?

10. You say Christ came into his kingdom the first time, then you say his kingdom was not of this world and then you say he rules this earthly kingdom now and then he comes back the 2nd time give the kingdom back to the father.

11. If Christ already rules this earth through the church he already has the kingdom according to your theology.

12. We both know that Christ has to come back again to restore the physical kingdom. You disagree with the 1000 years being after the tribulation but believe it is now with the church. I have already proved by context that this is not true.

13. The 1000 years of Satan being bound is connected with the tribulation saints who don't take the mark of the beast. If the church goes through the whole tribulation and is a part of the blessed dead, who don't take the mark of the beast, the 1000 year reign would still not be now. This means that the 1000 years is future and has nothing to do with a present reign of the 1000 year reign now. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The a thousand years, also known as the Church age or era, which began when Jesus ascended into heaven will end at precisely the time of Jesus' second coming and this also is the time He will make new heavens and a new earth. 2 Peter 3:10-13

The word "hour" is used 89 times in the New Testament as a fraction of a day.

In the following text we see that Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His Second Coming.


Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. (The word "quick" refers to the living.)

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.)



Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5. It is a spiritual resurrection, based upon faith in Christ.)

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(The judgment occurs at the bodily resurrection of the dead.)

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (An hour is coming in which all in the graves will be bodily resurrected. This is the second resurrection found in John chapter 5.)

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (Christ is the judge.)


In the passage above, we have the bodily resurrection of the dead bracketed by references to Christ being the Judge.

This resurrection and judgment will occur in less than one day's time, based on the use of the Greek word "hora" or "hour" in English.

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[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

The term "dispensation" is not wrong in and of itself. Paul dispensed the Gospel, just as a pharmacist dispenses medication.

If you want to use the term to define a time period, I can see it being applied to the Old Testament and to the New Covenant.

The Gospel was announced at Genesis 3:15, and the promise to Abraham that through his seed all the nations would be blessed is also found in Genesis and confirmed in Galatians. Galatians 3:16.
Paul preached the same Gospel that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.

I try to avoid the teachings of men because they are made of the same rotten flesh that I am made of.

That includes Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Darby, Scofield, and those of the modern world.

It is not that I am an better than them. Because I am not. However, I have been forced to change my understanding numerous times, because I listened to the words of a man.

I am willing to take a look at what each of them taught and apply it, if it agrees 100% with scripture.

Both Reformed covenant theology and Dispensational theology have problems, because they have forced the Bible to fit their viewpoints.

As a matter of fact, both of them have both overlooked New Covenant Theology, which is what the Apostle Paul taught.


What is New Covenant Theology?

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baberean 2,

1. I don't know that I necessarily disagree with much of anything the speaker said about some of the things that are wrong with dispensational theology. For the most part I believe the law of Christ and pretty much of what he said about new covenant theology.

2. I believe all the scripture is centered around Christ because it is about the whole plan of redemption that would lead to Calvary.

3. Some new covenant theologians believe Christ preached the new covenant in his messianic ministry to the jews. This is not true. Hebrews 9:16-17. There had to be the death of the testator before the testament could be any good.

4. While I agree there is only one gospel basic to the sacrifice of redemption which is Jesus Christ there is a difference in revelations in each age. These ages are based on the revelations of how people will be judged in the future. Romans 2:12-16. Conscience, written law and the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

5. Because Israel was under the Mosaic law they didn't have the same revelation as the church age. Jesus ministry was under the Mosaic law era and he taught them to believe in him for forgiveness of sins. The types pointed to calvary but even the disciples didn't know that message like we do during Christ ministry. This is proven in Matthew 16:21-23 and John 6 which was after the rejection of Christ by Israel (Matthew 23:37-39). Even after the resurrection and right before Christ ascended to heaven he had to expound the truth of his ministry through the law and the prophets and what and why's of what happened at the cross and the resurrection (Luke 24:44-49).

6. Pre, mid, or post rapture would not interfere with Israel's callings as the head of the nations.
The church is seen in heaven in Revelation 5:10 represented by the 24 elders; Revelation 11:18 being judged for their works; and Revelation 19:11 coming out of heaven with Christ and the angels to do war at the Battle of Armageddon. This is why there is a pre-trib rapture. There are no markings of the church in the last half of the tribulation known as Jacob's trouble (Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 24:21).

7. Even if it was a post rapture we would be raptured at the latest right before the wrath of God which is the 7 vials which are poured out on the beast kingdom. We would still be in time for the marriage supper of the lamb and coming out of heaven with Christ to the battle of Armageddon. So this position would not hinder Israel from their covenant coming true according to Abraham and David which are eternal conditioned on obedience. Jerry kelso

 

[ewq1938]

The words a thousand or the thousand when used alone do not refer to a literal one thousand. They refer to a large but unspecified number.

Why do you ignore other verses where the number is literal?

Numbers 3:50 Of the firstborn of the children of Israel took he the money; a thousand three hundred and threescore and five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary:

Numbers 26:51 These were the numbered of the children of Israel, six hundred thousand and a thousand seven hundred and thirty.

Numbers 31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

Numbers 31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

These are but a small handful of the number thousand/a thousand/one thousand being used literally.



Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,



So when we are told Satan is bound for a thousand years outside of any figure of speech or comparison which tries to teach a point, then we should accept it as written. None of your examples match what is plainly written in Rev 20.




Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Here we are told about the beginning of this thousand year period.




Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



And here we are told some details about the duration of this thousand year period.




Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



We are told the dead will not live during this thousand year period but shall have to wait until the thousand years are finished which means there is an end to this period of time.




Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,



And lastly we have the end of the period described. This cannot be argued to be a symbolic period of time. It has a start, a middle and a finish with all scriptures agreeing on 1,000 years and no more or less.


What's said about the 1,000 years:


"bound him a thousand years"


"the thousand years should be fulfilled"


"after that" (thousand year period)


"lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"


"the thousand years were finished"


"shall reign with him a thousand years"


"when the thousand years are expired"


So the 1,000 years begin with Satan being bound and the saints reigning with Christ and remains that way for its duration. When 1,000 years pass it is said the period has expired and has been fulfilled and then things will happen "after that" period! Everything about this period proves that it is a literal, definite period of exactly 1,000 years as it is written. There is nothing in the text to even hint at it being anything but literal.


When someone uses "a thousand years" in a figurative context it is meant to mean more that that amount. This is understood by us all. When Hitler spoke of the 3rd Reich lasting a thousand years he was literally saying the 3rd Reich would exist forever or for a very long time.


The problem with trying to turn Rev 20's 1,000 year period into a symbolic figure of speech that is something similar is that Rev 20 talks not only of the start of this period but its end. Therefore the comparisons utterly fail.


I also want to add this to the overwhelming evidence supporting a literal 1,000 period in Rev 20.



It is important to note that the number is preceded by a definite article 3 separate times. This identifies this 1,000 period as a certain period rather than a more generic non specified term. It is akin to the difference between saying "a king" and "the king". The "the" is the definite article.




Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus ministry was under the Mosaic law era and he taught them to believe in him for forgiveness of sins.

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

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[jerry kelso]

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

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baberean2,
That is true because Jesus was the reality and John the Baptist was the forerunner of the reality. This is a scripture used by new covenant theology and some dispensationalists use to prove Jesus taught the new covenant in the same context as after calvary.
Today we believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I gave the scriptures in Matthew 16:21-23 and John 6:53-67.
I have to go to work so you can post and I'll get back with you in the morning. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

this position would not hinder Israel from their covenant coming true according to Abraham and David which are eternal conditioned on obedience.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[jerry kelso]

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

baberean2,

1. Christ was the mediator of the new covenant at Calvary.

2. Romans 11:27 was according to the new covenant to be made with Israel who rejected them at the first coming of Christ in his earthly ministry.

3. After Calvary, the new covenant was for the whole world and not the nation of Israel and the KoH reign. If it would have been offered after the resurrection the kingdom would have begun. Jesus said right before he ascended in response to the disciple's question, Wilt you at this time restore the kingdom and he said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So the early church though jews for the most part was not another chance for Israel to accept the kingdom.

4. Christ didn't say or imply that their covenant concerning the land and the kingdom through the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants exclusive to Israel would no longer be realized. This proves Israel will fulfill their covenants when the generation of the tribulation saints of jews will be obedient and believe in Jesus.

5. If one reads Hebrews 8:9-12 you can understand that God has not put his law into the minds of Israel as a nation. Today, they are still backslidden according to their covenants. Verse 11 says; and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This has not happen since their disobedience in his earthly ministry. Verse 11 is a clear picture of the jews when they are saved and are in the KoH reign.

6. As I said before there is only one overall gospel when it comes to redemption but the jews in Jesus day had a different revelation to come to God. John manifested Jesus to Israel through water baptism and then when they recognized him as the messiah and believed in him for forgiveness of sin they would be saved and gain entrance into the kingdom.

7. The first time they didn't have the revelation of the death, burial, and resurrection as we do today. The proof is a few days before going to the cross Jesus started telling them he would have to die and he would rise again and Peter said I won't let anyone kill you and Jesus said; Get thee behind me Satan, you don't savor the things of God. This is a double reference addressing Satan who was using Peter's ignorance of what the death, burial, and resurrection and why Christ had to die as the sacrifice.

8. In John 6 Jesus preached about the bread from heaven and he was that bread and they of the believers in his earthly ministry and anyone who would want to become a believer they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is a sure picture of his death and resurrection of which we can understand easily looking back. Jesus asked his disciples if that offended them and some other disciples went back and walked no more with him and Jesus said to the 12, Will ye also go away? They didn't have a clue what Jesus was talking about but they believed he had the words of eternal life. Both accounts of these were after the jews rejected Jesus with the KoH and the KoG message to the nation (Matthew 23:37-39).

9. Can you see the difference in revelation of the nation of Israel before the cross and to the church after the resurrection?

10. Redemption was always about Christ in every age but the revelation of that was gradual. The old covenant was veiled in types and shadows and when the reality came in the person of Jesus Christ he began to reveal more about what the prophets and the law said about him. However, he could not had revealed plainly the fact that he was the sacrifice and that he would have to die and rise again because they would have killed him immediately for teaching something different which would have been false doctrine. This was because the jews only knew the old covenant law and for the most part they were blinded and so Jesus did not teach the death, burial and resurrection as a way to come to God. They had to recognize him as the Messiah and believe that he would forgive them of their sins. The miracles were a major part for them to recognize him as the Messiah as well as his baptism etc. This is because the jews require a sign. I will stop here but I would like to know if you truly understand that Jesus did not preach the full plain message of the death, burial and resurrection to the jewish nation in the KoH and the KoG message as is preached to the church today? Do you understand they had a different revelation than after the cross?

11. If you believe that Jesus taught the new covenant the same as after the cross then explain why you believe this. Thanks Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

1. Christ was the mediator of the new covenant at Calvary.

2. Romans 11:27 was according to the new covenant to be made with Israel who rejected them at the first coming of Christ in his earthly ministry.

3. After Calvary, the new covenant was for the whole world and not the nation of Israel and the KoH reign. If it would have been offered after the resurrection the kingdom would have begun. Jesus said right before he ascended in response to the disciple's question, Wilt you at this time restore the kingdom and he said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So the early church though jews for the most part was not another chance for Israel to accept the kingdom.

4. Christ didn't say or imply that their covenant concerning the land and the kingdom through the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants exclusive to Israel would no longer be realized. This proves Israel will fulfill their covenants when the generation of the tribulation saints of jews will be obedient and believe in Jesus.

1. Christ was the mediator of the new covenant at Calvary. 100 % correct. Matthew 26:28, John 19:30

2. Romans 11:27 was according to the new covenant to be made with Israel who rejected them at the first coming of Christ in his earthly ministry.
Wrong. Thousands of Israelites, like the Apostle Paul, accepted Him.
Nowhere in scripture is there any hint that every Israelite would accept Christ. Only a remnant will do so.
The New Covenant is made with all who accept Jesus Christ, without any consideration of bloodline.

3. After Calvary, the new covenant was for the whole world and not the nation of Israel and the KoH reign. If it would have been offered after the resurrection the kingdom would have begun. Jesus said right before he ascended in response to the disciple's question, Wilt you at this time restore the kingdom and he said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So the early church though jews for the most part was not another chance for Israel to accept the kingdom.
The whole nation of Israel is not going to get a do-over, seven years before His Second Coming.
God never spiritually saved all of the Israelites.
During the exodus He saved them from the army of Egypt, but then killed some of those same people during Korah's rebellion against Moses.

4. Christ didn't say or imply that their covenant concerning the land and the kingdom through the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants exclusive to Israel would no longer be realized. This proves Israel will fulfill their covenants when the generation of the tribulation saints of jews will be obedient and believe in Jesus.
Paul made it clear in Galatians 3:16 to whom the Promises were made. It was not made to the many seeds, as you are implying.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Those who talk about a "forever" land promise, fail to realize that this rotten, sin-cursed world does not last forever.
All forever, land promises are part of the New Heavens and the New Earth, containing the New Jerusalem, which we will inherit with the Old Testament Saints.
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[jerry kelso]

1. Christ was the mediator of the new covenant at Calvary. 100 % correct. Matthew 26:28, John 19:30

2. Romans 11:27 was according to the new covenant to be made with Israel who rejected them at the first coming of Christ in his earthly ministry.
Wrong. Thousands of Israelites, like the Apostle Paul, accepted Him.
Nowhere in scripture is there any hint that every Israelite would accept Christ. Only a remnant will do so.
The New Covenant is made with all who accept Jesus Christ, without any consideration of bloodline.

3. After Calvary, the new covenant was for the whole world and not the nation of Israel and the KoH reign. If it would have been offered after the resurrection the kingdom would have begun. Jesus said right before he ascended in response to the disciple's question, Wilt you at this time restore the kingdom and he said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So the early church though jews for the most part was not another chance for Israel to accept the kingdom.
The whole nation of Israel is not going to get a do-over, seven years before His Second Coming.
God never spiritually saved all of the Israelites.
During the exodus He saved them from the army of Egypt, but then killed some of those same people during Korah's rebellion against Moses.

4. Christ didn't say or imply that their covenant concerning the land and the kingdom through the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants exclusive to Israel would no longer be realized. This proves Israel will fulfill their covenants when the generation of the tribulation saints of jews will be obedient and believe in Jesus.
Paul made it clear in Galatians 3:16 to whom the Promises were made. It was not made to the many seeds, as you are implying.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Those who talk about a "forever" land promise, fail to realize that this rotten, sin-cursed world does not last forever.
All forever, land promises are part of the New Heavens and the New Earth, containing the New Jerusalem, which we will inherit with the Old Testament Saints.
.

baberean,

I am sorry but you are missing the big picture and context of Israel's callings. There is no argument in whether or not jews would be saved or gentiles in the early church for the church was mostly jewish out of Jesus ministry.

1. Do you know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were eternal exclusively connected to the physical kingdom? They were both conditioned on obedience of the whole nation. It started with David who wanted to build the house but because he was a man of war God said Solomon would build it. 1 Chronicles 28:7; Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements, as at this day.

2. Now Israel disobeyed many times in the line of David and yet Christ offered them the kingdom in his day and they disobeyed again. You think that their disobedience this time negates their covenant position in the kingdom which is eternal? No! This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and would still save them and bring them back into covenant in Romans 11:25-29.

3. Romans 11:27 is not talking about taking individual Israelites being saved in the church. Verse 25 was talking about the nation of Israel and not the gentiles or individual jews in the early church in this context for blindness happened to Israel and will last until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

4. Israel was the root of the olive tree and the gentiles the branches. As we were grafted in, Israel must be grafted in again. It couldn't be talking about individual jews saved in the early church for they would be the remnant in that day according to the election of grace. Verse 7 says Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verse 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should now see, and ears hath they should not hear) unto this day. This can't be talking about the jewish remnant or salvation of individual jews.

5. The context is about the nation of Israel needing to be grafted in which won't happen until the fulness of the gentiles be come in which won't be until the end of the tribulation. It is pretty clear and the only reason I can think of right now that you don't believe this is because your belief of the church being a spiritual jew.

6. If this is true then you are misunderstanding the passage about the spiritual jew.
Romans 2:17 is speaking directly to the jew in the flesh. Because they were so proud of being the administrators of the covenant etc. they thought that because they were in the club bloodline they automatically were saved and God said that election was not because of bloodline and it never was. Those bloodline jews had to be saved as a nation in order to be blessed. They broke the law and kept the righteousness of the law and the circumcision which refers to jews was only as good as if they kept it. Since they broke the law their circumcision was made uncircumcision.

7. If the uncircumcision (gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision (gentiles) be counted for circumcision? which would be saved spiritually. If gentiles keep the law and the jews don't then they would judge the sinful jew.

8. The true jew is spiritual inwardly not outwardly circumcised. The blood line jew was a true jew only if he was circumcised in the heart.

9. I don't have a big problem with saying the church whether jew or gentile is a true jew spiritually because in the church we are all on the same level of acceptance by Christ.
However, the context is to the physical jew and what the real physical jew is concerning circumcision of the heart. So there is no scriptural context of a spiritual jew being changed to the church and in so doing negate the eternal covenants of Abraham and David as a whole doctrine.
So I am sorry but you are wrong if you believe this context.

10. Yes, those of korah's rebellion were killed and in the tribulation Zechariah says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will go through the fire and be purified. This will be the remnant of that day and the woman which is Israel in Revelation 12 will be preserved in the wilderness and they will be gathered together because Ezekiel 36 says Israel and Judah are the two sticks that will be united and has nothing to do with the church in that respect.

11. The new heaven and the new earth are not the same as the first 1000 years of the KoH reign.
All the prophets talked about the Day of the Lord connected with Israel and would go into the kingdom where they would rule and reign at the head of the nations and Zion would be the place where the law would go out from to the whole world.

12. Even Peter in the early church on the Day of Pentecost was seeing like signs that would happen in the future. Why? Because he knew Joel's prophecy and he knew that it was tied to the restitution of all things. Even if you skip the 1000 years and go straight to the new heaven and the new earth you would find Israel still ruling and reigning at the head of the nations over the whole earth. Are you going to ignore all the end time scenarios about the Day of the Lord and the Kingdom in connection with Israel as the capitol of the earth in the earthly Jerusalem? The son of God is going to be the supreme ruler in this theocracy.
You can disagree but you cannot erase all these prophecies in connection with Israel and say the church will fulfill these scriptures. If you do you believe in replacement theology. Jerry Kelso

 

[parousia70]

1. There was never a question that the 1000 years in God's timing was not a literal 1000 years of man's time.

Correct, for One 24 hour Earth Day can = 1000 years To God.

 

[BABerean2]

1. Do you know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were eternal exclusively connected to the physical kingdom? They were both conditioned on obedience of the whole nation. It started with David who wanted to build the house but because he was a man of war God said Solomon would build it. 1 Chronicles 28:7; Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements, as at this day.

2. Now Israel disobeyed many times in the line of David and yet Christ offered them the kingdom in his day and they disobeyed again. You think that their disobedience this time negates their covenant position in the kingdom which is eternal? No! This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and would still save them and bring them back into covenant in Romans 11:25-29.

3. Romans 11:27 is not talking about taking individual Israelites being saved in the church. Verse 25 was talking about the nation of Israel and not the gentiles or individual jews in the early church in this context for blindness happened to Israel and will last until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

4. Israel was the root of the olive tree and the gentiles the branches. As we were grafted in, Israel must be grafted in again. It couldn't be talking about individual jews saved in the early church for they would be the remnant in that day according to the election of grace. Verse 7 says Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verse 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should now see, and ears hath they should not hear) unto this day. This can't be talking about the jewish remnant or salvation of individual jews.

1. Do you know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were eternal exclusively connected to the physical kingdom? They were both conditioned on obedience of the whole nation. It started with David who wanted to build the house but because he was a man of war God said Solomon would build it. 1 Chronicles 28:7; Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements, as at this day.
Your definition of "forever" must not be for an eternity. You believe it will only last to the end of the millennium.
I take it to mean an eternity, which means it must be in the New Heavens and New Earth, which do not end.
When the New Heavens and the New Earth come here it will be just as real as anything that exists today.

2. Now Israel disobeyed many times in the line of David and yet Christ offered them the kingdom in his day and they disobeyed again. You think that their disobedience this time negates their covenant position in the kingdom which is eternal? No! This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and would still save them and bring them back into covenant in Romans 11:25-29.
Christ never offered Israel a physical kingdom, during His earthly ministry. If you think He did, please provide the scripture.
All of the Israelites never obeyed God. However, there was always a Godly remnant.
All of the other covenants are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, otherwise we would be required to circumcise our children on the 8th day of life.
The only eternal kingdom is through the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

3. Romans 11:27 is not talking about taking individual Israelites being saved in the church. Verse 25 was talking about the nation of Israel and not the gentiles or individual jews in the early church in this context for blindness happened to Israel and will last until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
You are changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner (houto in Greek) and changing it to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
If all of the Israelites were blinded, none of them could have come to faith in Christ. Part of them were blinded and part of them were not.
The deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago.
The covenant in Romans 11 is the New Covenant "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.
The believing Israelite branches remained in the tree and the Gentile branches were grafted in among them. You are trying to claim all of the Israelite branches were broken off. Those broken off can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.


4. Israel was the root of the olive tree and the gentiles the branches. As we were grafted in, Israel must be grafted in again. It couldn't be talking about individual jews saved in the early church for they would be the remnant in that day according to the election of grace. Verse 7 says Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verse 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should now see, and ears hath they should not hear) unto this day. This can't be talking about the jewish remnant or salvation of individual jews
Again, you are claiming all of the Israelite branches were broken off. Romans 11:1 proves this not to be true.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


The word Israel can be used to mean those in-Christ and those not in-Christ.
The election are the Israelites who accepted Christ.
All of Israel of the Flesh are not Israel of the Promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If all of the Israelite root and branches had been broken off, there would have been nothing left for the Gentiles to be grafted into...
.

 

[parousia70]

The word Israel can be used to mean those in-Christ and those not in-Christ.
The election are the Israelites who accepted Christ.
All of Israel of the Flesh are not Israel of the Promise.

This is the Crux.
Indeed, premills have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (they count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism, known today as Christianity, living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

 

[Jan001]

jan001,

1. There was never a question that the 1000 years in God's timing was not a literal 1000 years of man's time.

The a thousand years in God's timing is a literal 1000 years of man's time according to your own way of interpreting the Scriptures, but most people will disagree with your interpretation of a thousand.

Jewish scholars do not interpret a thousand to be exactly 1000. Most Christian scholars do not interpret a thousand to be exactly 1000.

A THOUSAND
A thousand and its multiples are frequently used in the Bible as round numbers indicating a large amount. Etymologically the Hebrew word elef ("thousand") denotes "a crowd," and hence at times has the sense of "tribe," "clan," or designates a military unit, which does not necessarily comprise 1,000 (Ex. 18:21; Deut. 33:17; Judg. 6:15). Flinders Petrie (Researches in Sinai), interpreting elef to mean a family or tent, reduced the figure for the first census to 5,500, and to 5,730 for the second. Multiples of 1,000 are often hyperbolic expressions (Lev. 26:8; Deut. 32:30; I Sam. 18:7; Ps. 3:7[6]; Song 5:10). Seventy thousand (II Sam. 24:15) and 1,000,000 (Dan. 7:10; I Chron. 21:5; 22:14; II Chron. 14:8) are globular figures indicative of a vast number, while "thousands of ten thousands" (Gen. 24:60) and "ten thousand times ten thousand" (Dan. 7:10) are imaginative numerical ultimates. Similarly high figures are found in Ugaritic literature. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_14965.html
​

Since we do not agree on this one very important detail, that a thousand is not a literal 1000, it will not help either of us to continue this discussion.

May God bless you!

 

[Jan001]

The word "hour" is used 89 times in the New Testament as a fraction of a day.

In the following text we see that Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His Second Coming.

Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. (The word "quick" refers to the living.)

2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (Christ judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.)

I agree with you.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5. It is a spiritual resurrection, based upon faith in Christ.)

I agree that this is a spiritual resurrection.

But I think the first physical resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 and Matthew 27:50-53 occurred after Jesus died on the cross.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(The judgment occurs at the bodily resurrection of the dead.)

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (An hour is coming in which all in the graves will be bodily resurrected. This is the second resurrection found in John chapter 5.)

I agree that this is the physical resurrection of the living and the dead.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (Christ is the judge.)

In the passage above, we have the bodily resurrection of the dead bracketed by references to Christ being the Judge.

This resurrection and judgment will occur in less than one day's time, based on the use of the Greek word "hora" or "hour" in English.

I agree with you.

Spiritual resurrection for each person is when he is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and living in fellowship with God.

Physical death for each person is when his body dies and it is buried.

Physical resurrection for each person is when Jesus returns at the end of time for the judging of all people.

To experience the second death means to be separated from God forever.

 

[Jan001]

Why do you ignore other verses where the number is literal?

Numbers 3:50 Of the firstborn of the children of Israel took he the money; a thousand three hundred and threescore and five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary:

Numbers 26:51 These were the numbered of the children of Israel, six hundred thousand and a thousand seven hundred and thirty.

Numbers 31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

Numbers 31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

These are but a small handful of the number thousand/a thousand/one thousand being used literally.

So, you also believe that the 144,000 Israelites that are sealed in Revelation 7 is exactly 144,000, no more and no less?

 

[Jan001]

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

[Jan001]

For Jerry Kelso,

Jesus is the root of the olive tree. The olive tree is all the people of God. The Israelites are the natural branches and the non-Israelites are the wild branches. Both the natural branches and the wild branches can be cut off the tree and both can be grafted back in again.

Romans 11:16-24
For if the firstfruit [Jesus] is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root [Jesus] is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? nkjv

John 15:5
“I [Jesus] am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. nkjv​

 

[jerry kelso]

1. Do you know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were eternal exclusively connected to the physical kingdom? They were both conditioned on obedience of the whole nation. It started with David who wanted to build the house but because he was a man of war God said Solomon would build it. 1 Chronicles 28:7; Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements, as at this day.
Your definition of "forever" must not be for an eternity. You believe it will only last to the end of the millennium.
I take it to mean an eternity, which means it must be in the New Heavens and New Earth, which do not end.
When the New Heavens and the New Earth come here it will be just as real as anything that exists today.

2. Now Israel disobeyed many times in the line of David and yet Christ offered them the kingdom in his day and they disobeyed again. You think that their disobedience this time negates their covenant position in the kingdom which is eternal? No! This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and would still save them and bring them back into covenant in Romans 11:25-29.
Christ never offered Israel a physical kingdom, during His earthly ministry. If you think He did, please provide the scripture.
All of the Israelites never obeyed God. However, there was always a Godly remnant.
All of the other covenants are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, otherwise we would be required to circumcise our children on the 8th day of life.
The only eternal kingdom is through the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

3. Romans 11:27 is not talking about taking individual Israelites being saved in the church. Verse 25 was talking about the nation of Israel and not the gentiles or individual jews in the early church in this context for blindness happened to Israel and will last until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
You are changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner (houto in Greek) and changing it to the word "then", which is an adverb of time.
If all of the Israelites were blinded, none of them could have come to faith in Christ. Part of them were blinded and part of them were not.
The deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago.
The covenant in Romans 11 is the New Covenant "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.
The believing Israelite branches remained in the tree and the Gentile branches were grafted in among them. You are trying to claim all of the Israelite branches were broken off. Those broken off can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.


4. Israel was the root of the olive tree and the gentiles the branches. As we were grafted in, Israel must be grafted in again. It couldn't be talking about individual jews saved in the early church for they would be the remnant in that day according to the election of grace. Verse 7 says Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Verse 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should now see, and ears hath they should not hear) unto this day. This can't be talking about the jewish remnant or salvation of individual jews
Again, you are claiming all of the Israelite branches were broken off. Romans 11:1 proves this not to be true.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


The word Israel can be used to mean those in-Christ and those not in-Christ.
The election are the Israelites who accepted Christ.
All of Israel of the Flesh are not Israel of the Promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If all of the Israelite root and branches had been broken off, there would have been nothing left for the Gentiles to be grafted into...
.

baberean2,

1. I said the KoH is eternal (Daniel 7:27). The 1000 years is just the first part part of ruling and reigning. Revelation 20:4-6. This is while the devil is in the bottomless pit and when he is loosed after the 1000 years the last revolt happens when he deceives the nations and God send fire out of heaven to devour them and the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have been right before the 1000 years started for they were killed in the battle of Armageddon. The GWTJ for the sinners is after this revolt so it is 1000 years later after the 1st resurrection and then death will be completely done away with and the New Heaven and the New Earth will be here and the Holy City will come down from Heaven.
So you are wrong according to the scripture.

2. Matthew 4:17; Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Every jew knew this was the physical kingdom. I already quoted 1 Chronicles 28 of how the kingdom got started to begin with and that it was conditioned by obedience. Israel rejected Christ in Matthew 23:37-39. Matthew 6:33 the jew had to seek the KoG (spiritual aspect) and Luke 17:20 which the (spiritual aspect) came without observation and in John 3 they had to be born again (first time by water and the second time by the Spirit).

3. Jesus also said in the Sermon on the Mount, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5. Matthew 10:6-7; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The result of the rejection of that message is Matthew 23:37-39.

4. The scripture says that the KoH was only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and was not for the gentiles for they didn't have a covenant.
The usage of the word KoH is jewish and shows the Kingdom covenant which was supposed to happen the 1st time. Isaiah 9:6-7; For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder. This didn't happen the first time because Israel rejected Christ.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of host will perform this. This hasn't happened yet unless you believe the millennium is now which is unscriptural.

5. The argument of the usage of the KoH and the KoG being interchangeable is not really true. The KoH is the earthly sphere of the universal KoG and is out of harmony with the KoG universal. If it was the KoG in its physical sense it would be talking about the whole universe was out of harmony. This is why it is important to understand the distinctions of the KoH and the KoG.

6. The overall picture of Israel's kingdom covenant with David is connected to the millennial kingdom and the new heaven and the new earth. Christ has to rule during this period of the first 1000 years which Revelation 20 tells us will happen and this is why Christ comes back to earth with his saints to the battle of Armageddon.

7. Peter said in 3:21; Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. It was all connected to Israel's covenant for they were the children of the prophets and the covenant (verse 25) saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

8. In the garden of Eden was the original KoH and the KoG in the context of physical rule and spiritual rule of their heart. When they were kicked out of the garden they lost the physical rule and the spiritual rule both and both of these kingdoms had to be restored. Jesus preached about both of these kingdoms. The spiritual rule was restored at calvary and the physical rule will be restored at the battle of Armageddon.
The jews were so blinded and so enamored by the physical rule and rightly so because of Roman oppression that all they could think of for the most part was the physical rule and not the condition of obedience to be able to receive the kingdom.

9. At the same time Jesus had to offer the kingdom but his emphasis was on the KoG in it's spiritual aspect for them to gain entrance, not to mention that he knew the prophecy that Israel would reject him and that he was to die for the sins of the whole world. This is why the second time they will accept him; because they will understand the suffering Savior that they missed the first time and the new covenant is already here and they will be able to understand it better for only the blood can give remission of sins.

10. So you are wrong again about the kingdom offer not given by Christ. You need to study the jewish perspective and what was really happening in the old testament and its prophecies.
The jews are blinded now but there eyes will be opened and it doesn't help for gentiles to claim they have no more a covenant with God as such as described in the law and prophets. This is one reason for the big rift between jews and gentiles today. Eventually and even now there are messianic christians who understand the big picture and the nation will be made jealous by the church and rise up in the tribulation to take their rightful place in the KoH.

11. If the only eternal kingdom is in his blood which is spiritual then there would be no eternal physical kingdom and you said you believe the new heaven and the new earth were eternal. You just contradicted yourself.

12. Romans 11:1 just means that God has not cast away his elect of Israel from entering into their covenant as a nation. The nation was already backslidden before then and at the time Paul wrote that and Jesus had already pronounced judgement on Israel and in 70 A.D. they were destroyed as a nation.
I am not changing anything about the wording because I am going by the context. And so "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" WAS FUTURE FROM THAT TIME AND HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. SO MUCH FOR YOUR THEORY THAT ALL ISRAEL DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SAVED!.

13. You are wrong again because you do not understand the overall context of Israel's covenant of Abraham and David. Matthew 1:1 were the geneologies of Abraham and David and this shows that Christ was to fulfill these covenants the first time but could not because of Israel's disobedience.

14. Some jews were blinded and some were not but this has nothing to do with the nation's callings and gifts of their covenant which are without repentance but conditioned by obedience and this is why they enemies of the gospel for the churches sake, but as touching the election they were beloved for the father's sake and they still are. You are not separating the jews in the church and the nation itself and its covenant promises. Those jews in that day who were saved were a part of the church.

15. Out of Sion which is the heavenly Jerusalem just like Revelation 14. Christ is coming back with his saints out of heaven to the battle of Armageddon and save Israel and restore her spiritually and physically to the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. You are wrong again because Romans 11:26 is future and is the heavenly Mt. Sion and the not the earth Mt. Zion. So deliverance for the nation of Israel and their covenants did not come at the cross. Hebrews 8:7-13 is future and you cannot prove otherwise, especially in the details of verse 10 and 11 and 12.

16. Gentiles were grafted in and I did not say all the Israelites were broken off but the nation as a whole from their covenant promises of the land and of the kingdom. You are wrong again about what I said. The nation will be grafted back in. If the whole context was just about individual jews then there would be no reason Paul would say anything about God not forgetting the nation and for them to come back into their covenant and being enemies of the gospel etc. Your thinking is wrong again because you fail to understand the difference between the nation of Israel and saved jews in the church.

17 I have already shown you context about the spiritual jew and you cannot refute it. That is most likely why you believe Israel don't have a covenant as the head of the nations etc.
I have already addressed the root and the branches etc.
The scriptures prove you wrong. What you ought to do is tell me by scripture how everything is positioned and plays out according to the tribulation and the kingdom as you understand it. Jerry kelso


3.

 

[jerry kelso]

For Jerry Kelso,

Jesus is the root of the olive tree. The olive tree is all the people of God. The Israelites are the natural branches and the non-Israelites are the wild branches. Both the natural branches and the wild branches can be cut off the tree and both can be grafted back in again.

Romans 11:16-24
For if the firstfruit [Jesus] is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root [Jesus] is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? nkjv

John 15:5
“I [Jesus] am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. nkjv​

jan001,

1. I am not dismissing the fact that Jesus is the main root of the olive as in he is the vine and we are the branches.

2. Romans 11:16 says: For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy , so are the branches.
Israel was the natural branches and the gentiles were the wild olive tree and we were grafted in among them and partook of the root and fatness of the olive tree. So I am not taking anything out of context for messiah was the root of David. Be that as it may and that was my context I do not argue with the fact of Christ being the vine and us as branches or that we are doing things on our own without Christ or the fact that he uses the terms natural branches. Paul also used the words wild olive tree and yet there was only one tree and we were grafted into it. So go figure.
God gave Israel the spirit of slumber so they wouldn't hear even in Paul's day and it is still true today. Through their fall salvation came to the gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. It was because of Israel's disobedience this happened and the nation of Israel will be grafted in because of this jealously of the church.
Anyway, there is no contradiction in what I said according to the context of the scripture. We can do nothing without Christ. Shalolm! Jerry kelso