This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[sdowney717]

Where on earth would you get the idea that I missed vs. 16?

Please don't slip conveniently between two different words as it suits you.

Election and salvation are not the same thing.

Who said otherwise?

This is a rather basic truth don't you think. Why do you think that you have to point it out to me?


OK.......!

Nonsense!

Salvation is by grace through faith everywhere it is received by men whether that be in Israel, Egypt, or in Mexico.

I have no trouble seeing all of the meaning in the passage.

Vs. 16 says, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

What's your point?

The context is the choice of God to call certain people true Israelites based on faith - which faith in turn comes by grace from God as we all know by now.

God's loving of one person and hating the other person before they were ever born (resulting in wrath and destruction for one and mercy and glory for the other) shows that He has mercy on whom He wishes and hardens whom He wishes.

The resulting relationship with God resulted in the nation of Israel coming through the one whom God loved and not so for the other.

What's your point?

Romans 9 clearly says that some jew and some gentile both must be called of God to be saved.
Many people reject Romans 9, 10, 11 having to do with personal election of both jew and gentile, frankly they 'come to the table' with their personal assumptions and mind already set one way o another according to how they were taught and their personal opinion. I think they are sitting in the darkness still. How else to explain why they cannot understand this verse Paul writes summing up personal election.

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This is individual, a 'for consider your calling brethren' type teaching,
People must deny the individual calling of God to be saved, otherwise they have to accept that God calls one individual and not another, and to them that makes God evil. So some simply stay in the darkness, worshipping a god of their own imagination, and not the God and Christ of the scriptures.
Romans 8, is personal election, personal calling, particular redemption for some, leaving others on the outside.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why not start a thread on Calvinism?

Then the people that do not want to hear it can avoid it.

Getting sucked into a thread about OSAS only to be bombarded with Calvinism is off-topic. Only Calvinists care about it. Only Calvinists believe it. Only Calvinists want to talk about it.

Sheeesh. How rude!

 

[brotherjerry]

Why not start a thread on Calvinism?

Then the people that do not want to hear it can avoid it.

Getting sucked into a thread about OSAS only to be bombarded with Calvinism is off-topic. Only Calvinists care about it. Only Calvinists believe it. Only Calvinists want to talk about it.

Sheeesh. How rude!

Don't you know it is their brand of witnessing to the lost...
Step 1: God calls people to salvation
Step 2: God ordained who will become saved before the Universe was created
Step 3: God calls those He ordained to be saved.
Step 4: God gives the raspberry to the others He did not decide were to be saved.
Step 5: God inspired the entire Bible so that Calvinists can tell people that won't be saved they are sitting in the dark...that way they too can give the unsaved the raspberry.


Before anyone goes off the handle...I was saying all that in jest.

But it is funny how the Calvinists when faced with Biblical opposition to their position rely upon personal name calling and irrational arguments such as "well your eyes are closed"... When not once does anyone who does not accept personal election of the Calvinists ever say that they are not saved or anything like that. Confused? Maybe..but we never accuse them of deception, ungodliness, being an antichrist, or anything like that.

Be wary old Calvinists...when you hold your TULIP up so high you can't focus on God and have since made an idol.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Don't you know it is their brand of witnessing to the lost...
Step 1: God calls people to salvation
Step 2: God ordained who will become saved before the Universe was created
Step 3: God calls those He ordained to be saved.
Step 4: God gives the raspberry to the others He did not decide were to be saved.
Step 5: God inspired the entire Bible so that Calvinists can tell people that won't be saved they are sitting in the dark...that way they too can give the unsaved the raspberry.


Before anyone goes off the handle...I was saying all that in jest.

But it is funny how the Calvinists when faced with Biblical opposition to their position rely upon personal name calling and irrational arguments such as "well your eyes are closed"... When not once does anyone who does not accept personal election of the Calvinists ever say that they are not saved or anything like that. Confused? Maybe..but we never accuse them of deception, ungodliness, being an antichrist, or anything like that.

Be wary old Calvinists...when you hold your TULIP up so high you can't focus on God and have since made an idol.

I just don't want to hear it. If they label a thread with Calvin, no one reads it. So they sucker people into threads with other titles so they can push their wacked theology.

NO ONE CARES.

God saves all who come to Him in faith.

So Calvinism means something only to Calvinists. No one else cares. No one cares.

They are so rude. It's like they defame the entire gospel and what Christ died to give us with their wacked theology.

If they are saved, call yourself saved.

Who calls themselves 'called by God' unless they want others to know they are not called. It's arrogant theology. Christ died so he could call Calvinists to salvation. Pfft.

Then saying that God loves those he calls. Pfft. God loves both the sinner and the saint the same. Calling all Calvinists! Read this! YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why not start a thread on Calvinism?

Then the people that do not want to hear it can avoid it.

Getting sucked into a thread about OSAS only to be bombarded with Calvinism is off-topic. Only Calvinists care about it. Only Calvinists believe it. Only Calvinists want to talk about it.

Sheeesh. How rude!

I just don't want to hear it. If they label a thread with Calvin, no one reads it. So they sucker people into threads with other titles so they can push their wacked theology.

NO ONE CARES.

God saves all who come to Him in faith.

So Calvinism means something only to Calvinists. No one else cares. No one cares.

They are so rude. It's like they defame the entire gospel and what Christ died to give us with their wacked theology.

If they are saved, call yourself saved.

Who calls themselves 'called by God' unless they want others to know they are not called. It's arrogant theology. Christ died so he could call me to salvation. Pfft.

We could be more sympathetic to your feigned outrage and personal frustration had you not been the one who drew the thread off topic in the first place.

The first mention of Calvinism, if I remember correctly, was your post number 94 offered up more than a week ago. You immediately started with disparaging remarks against Calvinists there because some of the posts had been (unavoidably) echoing many concepts that those in that camp find unavoidable when talking about the source of not only our initial salvation but our eternal security.

You are the one who mentioned by name and insulted Calvinism over and over again in the pages which followed with your exchanges with -57, AddOne, Nobdysfool, and a number of others.

From the very beginning your post have been filled with vitriol and contempt against those who believe the doctrines of grace.

You were the main instigator who took this thread off topic and who led it into negativism against Calvinism and pitted one side of that issue against the other.

I wouldn't mind the thread getting back to topic myself. Although I am pretty sure that the original poster of the OP ran out of ammo within a few pages. His points were never very well laid out and the scriptures he chose did not prove his point about the falsehood of "OSAS".

On the other hand - it is only somewhat natural that a thread on eternal security should turn eventually to a discussion concerning who is the author of our faith and the one who chose from before time to bring us into the body of Christ for His own eternal glory.

There is nothing more pertinent IMO to the subject of our eternal security than exploring the root sources of our salvation.

If you can't compete in a controversy that you yourself started you shouldn't have started it and you can start your own thread where you are more comfortable - as you suggest that others do.

On the other hand, if you have questions about what Reformed believer hold to or if you would simply like to join in the discussion along the lines in which you took it -- you are more than welcome.

I will engage you any time on any fork of this admittedly difficult but very important subject.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We could be more sympathetic to your feigned outrage and personal frustration had you not been the one who drew the thread off topic in the first place.

The first mention of Calvinism, if I remember correctly, was your post number 94. You started disparaging Calvinism there because some of the posts were (unavoidably) echoing many concepts that those in that camp find unavoidable when talking about the source of not only our initial salvation but our eternal security.

You are the one who mentioned by name and insulted Calvinism over and over again in the pages which followed with your exchanges with -57, AddOne, Nobdysfool, and a number of others.

From the very beginning your post have been filled with vitriol and contempt against those who believe the doctrines of grace.

You were the instigator who took this thread off topic and led it into negativism against Calvinism and pitted one side of that issue against the other.

I wouldn't mind the thread getting back to topic myself. Although I am pretty sure that the original poster of the OP ran out of ammo within a few pages. His points were never very well laid out and the scriptures he chose did not prove his point about the falsehood of "OSAS".

On the other hand - it is only somewhat natural that a thread on eternal security should turn eventually to a discussion concerning who is the author of our faith and the one who chose from before time to bring us into the body of Christ for His own eternal glory.

There is nothing more pertinent IMO to the subject of our eternal security than exploring the root sources of our salvation.

If you can't compete in a controversy that you yourself started you shouldn't have started it and you can start your own thread where you are more comfortable - as you suggest that others do.

Feeling that Christians are called to salvation is an extra belief. All can come to Christ, their is no stopping anyone except those who say only the called can come to God.

The reason it comes into the conversation is one of the beleivers of this 'elect' theory starts spewing it. Than they want to prove it. List their scriptures. When people disagree they start with the 'I don't know why you cannot see' blah, blah, blah.

The truth is that Christ died for all sin. All the sins of the world. So the elect thing is obsolete. It doesn't matter except to those who want their warm & fuzzy theology that they are so much more special to God then everyone else is.

So they tell seekers that they cannot be saved because they are not called or elect?

Who does that? How arrogant is that?

It has nothing to do with anyone's salvation because it is a fringe belief. A small, tiny population that likes to toot their own horn, instead of spreading the good news of the gospel.

There is nothing pertinent about election. It is an exclusionary doctrine that divides people into the 'have's' given by God and the 'have not's' given by God.

I can go on and on, but I don't think either of us will change each others minds.

But should the topic rear it's head, I am not afraid to speak out against it. I always will, because God DOES NOT CHOOSE SOME and SEND OTHERS TO HELL.

NO ONE CARES! DON'T SPEW YOUR HATE DOCTRINE.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But it is funny how the Calvinists when faced with Biblical opposition to their position rely upon personal name calling and irrational arguments such as "well your eyes are closed"... When not once does anyone who does not accept personal election of the Calvinists ever say that they are not saved or anything like that. Confused? Maybe..but we never accuse them of deception, ungodliness, being an antichrist, or anything like that.

It works both ways here in this forum and in the church from the beginning. To say otherwise is to be blind to the truth concerning how some people on both sides tend to argue.

 

[sdowney717]

People go to hell for their sins, But those who are with Christ are CALLED, CHOSEN, FAITHFUL.
People with vitriolic hatred contrary to the scripture are puffed up and know nothing at best, and at worst are in league with the devil, captured by him to do his will, and only God is the one who can grant them to repent..

13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings;
and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

I wonder what 'called' 'chosen' mean to some people, not much apparently.
Scripturally though they mean salvation is only for them that are called, chosen and faithful, and that is everything right there in just a few words. Those are the ones who will be with Christ and no one else. ALL the others will follow the beast and satan.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It works both ways here in this forum and in the church from the beginning. To say otherwise is to be blind to the truth concerning how some people on both sides tend to argue.

What does your doctrine add to the gospel?

It only detracts and tells people they are not chosen. Should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[ToBeLoved]

People go to hell for their sins, But those who are with Christ are CALLED, CHOSEN, FAITHFUL.
People with vitriolic hatred contrary to the scripture are puffed up and know nothing at best, and at worst are in league with the devil, captured by him to do his will, and only God is the one who can grant them to repent..

13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings;
and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

I wonder what 'called' 'chosen' mean to some people, not much apparently.
Scripturally though they mean salvation is only for them that are called, chosen and faithful, and that is everything right there in just a few words. Those are the ones who will be with Christ and no one else. ALL the others will follow the beast and satan.

I guess this proves BrotherJerry so right.

Luckily I don't hold your opinion in high regard. Sorry.

I like how you know how to bold. So you are called, chosen and faithful. Now that's how to give yourself the warm and fuzzies about how great you are.

I have the same Lord as you, so you are talking to your bretheren, just because I don't agree with your inflated opinion of yourself does not mean I am in league with satan. Your own words make what you believe a joke. Who believes that someone that has a difference of opinion about whether people are called or elect would call someone in league with satan? There is only one belief system that I know of.

Oh how the leapord shows their spots. It's not all about you. It's about Christ. Put your head back on your neck before it inflates so large it doesn't fit anymore.

Then go start a thread about your beliefs that no one but your buddies will take part in. That's how to spend an evening lifting yourself up.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So the elect thing is obsolete.

No doctrine is obsolete so long as it is found in the eternal Word of God.

So they tell seekers that they cannot be saved because they are not called or elect?

Who does that? How arrogant is that?

Exactly.

Who does that? I know of no Calvinist who does that.

The 19th century has been called the "great century" as it is related to the opening of the world to evangelism. It is interesting to note that there was hardly a field opened up to the harvest that was not pioneered by Godly men who held to the doctrines of grace espoused by the Reformed branch of Christianity.

It has nothing to do with anyone's salvation because it is a fringe belief. A small, tiny population that likes to toot their own horn, instead of spreading the good news of the gospel.

The history of the church has proven you opinion wrong.

NO ONE CARES! DON'T SPEW YOUR HATE DOCTRINE.

The Holy Spirit cares or He wouldn't have placed it in the scriptures.

I find it interesting that, for all the charges of spewing hated that has been leveled at Calvinists - your hatred of them is most on display here on this thread.

 

[sdowney717]

I guess this proves BrotherJerry so right.

Luckily I don't hold your opinion in high regard. Sorry.

I like how you know how to bold. So you are called, chosen and faithful. Now that's how to give yourself the warm and fuzzies about how great you are.

I have the same Lord as you, so you are talking to your bretheren, just because I don't agree with your inflated opinion of yourself does not mean I am in league with satan. Your own words make what you believe a joke.

You make my point with every nasty post contrary to the revealed WORD of God.
All I do is quote the scriptures and it makes you enraged, I wonder why...
If I tell you the truth, then why do you react that way. Something's not right in you.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What does your doctrine add to the gospel?

It only detracts and tells people they are not chosen. Should be ashamed of yourself.

The doctrine of predestination and it's necessary scriptures and deductions concerning divine election add nothing to the presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist who includes a discussion of these topics in their presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist missionary of past years including John Calvin himself who did so.

For what it is worth, however, I am not a 5-point Calvinist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No doctrine is obsolete so long as it is found in the eternal Word of God.

Exactly.

Who does that. I know of no Calvinist who does that.

The 19th century has been called the "great century" as it is related to the opening of the world to evangelism. It is interesting to note that there was hardly a field opened to to the harvest that was not pioneered by Godly men who held to the doctrines of grace espoused by the Reformed branch of Christianity.

The history of the church has proven you opinion wrong.

The Holy Spirit cares or He wouldn't have placed it in the scriptures.

I find that, for all the charges of spewing hated that has been leveled at Calvinists - your hatred of is most on display here on this thread.

And no one agree's with you that elect doctrine is in the Bible.

And the only ones who ever tell sinners that they cannot come to Christ is your people. You preach the Christ saves only the elect. That's pitiful. You should be ashamed of yourself.

No one in their rational mind would do anything other than point them to the grace and free gift that Jesus Christ gives to all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The doctrine of predestination and it's necessary scriptures and deductions concerning divine election add nothing to the presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist who includes a discussion of these topics in their presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist missionary of past years including John Calvin himself who do so.

For what it is worth, however, I am not a 5-point Calvinist.

Maybe go read post #528. I'll wait.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The doctrine of predestination and it's necessary scriptures and deductions concerning divine election add nothing to the presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist who includes a discussion of these topics in their presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist missionary of past years including John Calvin himself who do so.

For what it is worth, however, I am not a 5-point Calvinist.

Come out of the woods, Bambi.

 

[sdowney717]

The doctrine of predestination and it's necessary scriptures and deductions concerning divine election add nothing to the presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist who includes a discussion of these topics in their presentation of the gospel to the world.

I know of no Calvinist missionary of past years including John Calvin himself who do so.

For what it is worth, however, I am not a 5-point Calvinist.

This is the soteriology forum, so this is an appropriate place where the topic of our salvation is explored. People should expect and be prepared to discuss it, If they get mad, then they should post in some other forum more to their liking. Maybe they come here to try to prove the doctrine of election by grace wrong, and when they cant, they get really mad.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You make my point with every nasty post contrary to the revealed WORD of God.
All I do is quote the scriptures and it makes you enraged, I wonder why...
If I tell you the truth, then why do you react that way. Something's not right in you.

I'm fine with your theology because I see right through it and see it for what it is.

So what have I said that is contrary to the Word of God?

I told you already why I don't believe your theology. I am enraged for others. Babes in Christ that read your words and others like you and begin to doubt their salvation. Whether they have been called or not.

Your not important enough for it to be about you personally. It's' about others and my serving Jesus Christ.

Don't think it's about you.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Marvin.

You made a point in your post that I am not sure is warranted.

Here is what you said.

God's loving of one person and hating the other person before they
were ever born (resulting in wrath and destruction for one and mercy and
glory for the other) shows that He has mercy on whom He wishes and hardens
whom He wishes.

We both know from the relevant scripture below.

Romans 9
11...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her,
“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I
loved, but Esau I hated.”

That according to God's choice, the older will serve the younger.
God chose Jacob and loved Jacob, God did not choose Esau.

This does not mean that Esau was not able to acheive salvation
in Christ. Esau was not eternally damned, the scripture never states
that this is the case. Your assuming that because Esau was not
chosen, like everyone else on the planet at the time, he was eternally
damned?

May I ask how you decided, that Esau and the rest of humanity was
damned, but only Jacob was saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is the soteriology forum, so this is an appropriate place where the topic of our salvation is explored. People should expect and be prepared to discuss it, If they get mad, then they should post in some other forum more to their liking. Maybe they come here to try to prove the doctrine of election by grace wrong, and when they cant, they get really mad.

Election by grace does not exist.

The grace of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world who gives freely the gift of salvation by His grace. That is grace. What Jesus gave us was grace.

Election plays no part in that, because all are called to be children of God.