This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[ToBeLoved]

What is habitually? I am almost 60 years old and have been sinning since I was born. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So what is habitually? If I sin every day is that 'habitually' and I don't have a saving relationship?



What if I only sin once a week? One time a week I sin. The rest of the time I’m as pure as the driven snow. Isn’t that habitually unsinful? Or maybe not.

I was saved almost half a century ago but spent decades apart from the Lord. Had I died back during those decades would I now be asking for Lazarus to bring me a drop of water for my searing thirst? Now that I’ve turned back to the Lord, am I saved? I feel the Holy Spirit and he guides me but all these wise men here seem intent that if I don’t do enough, often enough, then I’m fooling myself.

…but they won’t tell me how much is enough and how often is often enough.

So I keep coming back to John 3:16 and thinking that it was NOT said “…that whosoever believeth in me, and tithe, and sell his belongings and give to the poor, and, and, and” He said believeth.

I think of Galatians where Paul says to beware the teachers that you need more than grace, that works are required for salvation.

So if this thread is the end of the discussion of grace and OSAS then I’m missing something.

Somebody kindly explain this?

I asked the same thing 10 pages back. It seems this thread has veered off into a Calvanist (predestination) vs non-predestination thread with little tidbits of other tossed in.

Welcome to CF! I totally agree with what you have written.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Perhaps in another thread you would like to explain how predestination and free will are compatible. I would like to hear that.

brotherjerry: I always think that discussions become more helpful when things move beyond the abstract and keep close to Scripture, which is not silent about matters of sovereignty and Divine grace; like in Ephesians 2, for example.

 

[brotherjerry]

brotherjerry: I always think that discussions become more helpful when things move beyond the abstract and keep close to Scripture, which is not silent about matters of sovereignty and Divine grace; like in Ephesians 2, for example.

Oh I agree and I like to keep as close to scripture as possible.

 

[brotherjerry]

I asked the same thing 10 pages back. It seems this thread has veered off into a Calvanist (predestination) vs non-predestination thread with little tidbits of other tossed in.

Welcome to CF! I totally agree with what you have written.

Sorry TBL...that may have been partially my fault.

 

[brotherjerry]

And Mr. Brooks I completely missed that you were quite new to the forums. Welcome to the forums. Don't mind the clutter, the maid is on vacation this week.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Oh I agree and I like to keep as close to scripture as possible.

Yes, it's a healthy tendency.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Point well taken brother (or sister?).

I understood what you meant. I was just concerned others way not.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Who do you think the people are who will be 'falling away'? Christians or non-Christians?

Who do you think the people are who will fall into the "I never knew you" people? Christians or non-Christians?

Who would qualify as a "wolf in sheep's clothing"? Christians or non-Christians?

1. non-Christians ------ "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

2. non-Christians ----- “...The Lord knows those who are his...” 2 Timothy 2:19

3. non-Christians ----- "I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." Isaiah 61:10

"But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" Philippians 3:7-9

 

[expos4ever]

Hi you said this
11... so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Two phrases stand out here, 'God's purpose' and 'not because of works'.

But your not going to forget about the other two are you?
'according to His choice'
and
'but because of Him who calls'

That makes it personal election, dont you think so?

Certainly not, if by "personal election" you mean "election to a particular fate after death".

This should not be this hard. The fact that God can pre-destine things does not mean that He necessarily predestines your eternal fate.

And Romans 9 gives us examples of God "choosing" for purposes other than "where you go when you die": Pharaoh, for example, is "chosen" not to go to hell but to resist the liberation of the Israelites.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Who do you think the people are who will fall into the "I never knew you" people? Christians or non-Christians?

I wanted to point something out I find interesting in this verse.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'" (Matt 7:22)

I was thinking about this the other day and it appears to me these people Jesus is speaking to are relying on their works to save them. "Have we not this and have we not that". Which would put them in the non-christian category because they are not trusting in Christ alone but are holding onto their works. Just a thought.

 

[expos4ever]

I think of Galatians where Paul says to beware the teachers that you need more than grace, that works are required for salvation.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that these "works" are not "good deeds" but rather the prescriptions of the Law of Moses. People misunderstand Paul on this: When Paul denies "justification by works", he is certainly not saying that you do not need to have lead a good life to be saved. After all, it is this same Paul who writes these words:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How is this not a clear statement that one's salvation will be based on the good works you exhibit? Now I happen to interpret this a saying that these good works are the "evidence" of what really saves you -grace through faith.

But that does not mean they are still not required.

Paul lived in a world where the Jews saw themselves as distinct from the rest of the world and announced that distinction by doing the "works" prescribed by the Law of Moses, a law that was given by God to Jews and only Jews. These Jews often thought God "owed" them justification simply on the basis of their ethnicity. So what Paul is really saying when he denies "justification by works" is that justification is not for Jews only.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My understanding is that propitiation was Jesus Christ overcoming sin, which satisfied the Father that the sin debt was paid-in-full for the world. This is the step BEFORE Christ dealing with humanity. This is what the Father sent Him to do.

And, this provides the explanation of what 2 Cor 5:19 means. "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

 

[FreeGrace2]

We all make our choices every day and they are our choices to make even if they were predestined to take place.

The difference of course is that we are not God and we cannot act independent of what He has predestined - even if that bothers us a bit just as it bothered the devil in the beginning.

Except that God hasn't "predestined" everything that occurs. He allows or permits many things to occur. Because He is omniscient.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. non-Christians ------ "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

This verse doesn't have to be about unbelievers. It is in fact about believers who have wrong ideas, just as the believers among the pharisees and taught circumcision in Acts 15:5.

 

[Marvin Knox]

While it is certainly true that that verse can have application that is not limited to a person being saved or not saved --- the context in which it was asked, if I am not mistaken, had to do with whether they were actual Christians or non-Christians. The reason I assume that is that this thread has to do with OSAS.

When I chose the category of "non-Christian" as opposed to choosing "Christian" - I was not saying that they are non-Christians in the sense that they don't belong to the Christian religion.

As the Lord predicted, Christianity has grown into a monstrous tree in which all manner of birds of the air perch in it's branches. It is a field in which both wheat and tares grow together in such close proximity that it is impossible to uproot, or in many cases even identify, the tares lest some of the wheat be injured along the way.

But the Lord knows who are His own. He will separate them when the time comes. The ones He has "never" known will not make the cut.

With regards to God's predestination as it is related to God allowing or permitting things to happen - His allowing or permitting does not nullify His predestination of certain things. Rather it establishes them.

Things that He has predestined to happen can be brought to fruition by the free choices of His creatures.

Predestination and free choice are completely compatible one with the other.

 

[sdowney717]

I wanted to point something out I find interesting in this verse.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'" (Matt 7:22)

I was thinking about this the other day and it appears to me these people Jesus is speaking to are relying on their works to save them. "Have we not this and have we not that". Which would put them in the non-christian category because they are not trusting in Christ alone but are holding onto their works. Just a thought.

They are not even trusting in Christ, nor believing in Christ, they believe in a false Christ that has deceived them, how many are like them!
Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Even that Antichrist yet to appear, people will worship as God and as Christ come back.
And the genuine Christ will say to them, I never knew you, depart from ME you workers of evil.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

[sdowney717]

This verse doesn't have to be about unbelievers. It is in fact about believers who have wrong ideas, just as the believers among the pharisees and taught circumcision in Acts 15:5.

Serious Error you are in, John calls them ANTICHRISTS.
So your saying saved believers are Antichrists???
1 John 2
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

The contrast is that the believers who remain true, have an anointing to know the TRUTH and are not going to depart the faith. they have that anointing because God who foreknew them in love, regenerated them so they could be taught of the Holy Spirit and be guided into the truth..

 

[faroukfarouk]

John's First Epistle is very searching and a reading of it is certainly relevant to the topic.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hello Marvin.
You stated the following in your reply.
How about we print the text and see what the text is stating.
Romans 9
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then
it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on
God who has mercy.

You probably missed line sixteen Marvin because you are selective
in the verses you are choosing.

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs

Where on earth would you get the idea that I missed vs. 16?

Salvation is not gained through works, election is gained through faith.

Please don't slip conveniently between two different words as it suits you.

Election and salvation are not the same thing.

No one can enter heaven by their own self effort, we rely on God's mercy in Jesus Christ. God's compassion is only on those who accept Christ Jesus, that's what Paul is arguing all the way through Romans.

Who said otherwise?

This is a rather basic truth don't you think? Why do you think that you have to point it out to me?

Corporate election Marvin, not a national election, Isreal and the Gentiles, circumcised and uncircumcised, think corporate.

OK.......!

Israel represents a legal works orientated salvation, but the Gentiles are chosen through faith.

Nonsense!

Salvation is by grace through faith everywhere it is received by men whether that be in Israel, Egypt, or in Mexico.

Paul is not really talking about individual election in Romans chapter nine, verse fifteen. The context must include verse sixteen as well. When both verses are together the meaning is much clearer.

I have no trouble seeing all of the meaning in the passage.

Vs. 16 says, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

What's your point?

Context, context, and more context.

The context is the choice of God to call certain people true Israelites based on faith - which faith in turn comes by grace from God as we all know by now.

God's loving of one person and hating the other person before they were ever born (resulting in wrath and destruction for one and mercy and glory for the other) shows that He has mercy on whom He wishes and hardens whom He wishes.

The resulting relationship with God that came through His election eventually resulted in the nation of Israel coming through the one whom God loved and not through the other.

What's your point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Serious Error you are in, John calls them ANTICHRISTS.
So your saying saved believers are Antichrists???

I supported my view from Scripture: Acts 15:5. Didn't you read my post and look up the verse??

1 John 2
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Are you aware that any believer who believes what is contrary to Christ is against Him?? Yes, there are believers who are against Christ.