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Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

Jan001

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Except what Christ said in the olivet discourse was a literal return including angels gathering the elect together which is the rapture:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

None of that happened in Ad 70.

According to your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures, none of this happened.

That's 36 months. 12 + 12 + 12 = 36 Plus, the Romans didn't occupy the city until Ad 70. The Jews were in control of it since AD 66 so your facts and math have huge errors.

Feb 67 - Aug 70 siege of Jerusalem

Feb - Dec 67 = 10 months
Jan - Dec 68 = 12 months
Jan - Dec 69 = 12 months
Jan - Aug 70 = 8 months

Total = 42 months

http://kloposmasm.com/2009/08/16/pp17-the-historical-events-leading-up-to-70-ad-part-1/
 
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ewq1938

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According to your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures, none of this happened.

No, historically they didn't happen. Nor is Christ here with his resurrected saints.



Feb 67 - Aug 70 siege of Jerusalem

Feb - Dec 67 = 10 months
Jan - Dec 68 = 12 months
Jan - Dec 69 = 12 months
Jan - Aug 70 = 8 months

Total = 42 months

lol....the Romans didn't set a foot in Jerusalem until Ad 70. The preceding siege does not fulfill this verse:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The Romans were outside of the protective walls of the city until Ad 70.
 
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Jan001

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Two completely different things. The word of God is not a sword. It is sharper than any sword.​

Jesus is truth. His words are truth. His words are like a sword but are sharper than all material/physical two-edged swords.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. nkjv

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. nkjv

Acts 9:1
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest nkjv
The breath of Jesus' mouth are His words/commands.

No he didn't.

We will agree to disagree. :)
 
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Jan001

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No, historically they didn't happen. Nor is Christ here with his resurrected saints.

lol....the Romans didn't set a foot in Jerusalem until Ad 70. The preceding siege does not fulfill this verse:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The Romans were outside of the protective walls of the city until Ad 70.

We will agree to disagree. :)
 
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ewq1938

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The power of the second coming of Jesus causes both the resurrection and the rapture/meeting in the air. They all happen at about the same exact time.

1. Trumpet sounds.
2. All the dead bodies in the graves resurrect and they rejoin their ever-living spirits wherever they may be.

2 is wrong. Not all the dead resurrect at this time. Only the dead in Christ, as they rise FIRST:

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The unsaved dead are said to rise a thousand years later Rev 20:5, whether that's exactly 1000, or less or more. But there is a long period of time before the rest of the dead resurrect.
 
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iamlamad

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Fine, I'll start calling Him "John the Baptist" on this thread then, since I have exactly as much Biblical instruction to call the Beast of Revelation "John the Baptist" as I have to call Him "The Antichrist".

Lets try:
The Bible teaches that John the Baptist will cause everyone great and Small to receive a mark on their right hand or Forehead, and anyone who refuses, John the Baptist will have them killed.
Are you here just to play games? GO AWAY! You can call Him whatever. It won't affect him, it won't affect the church - it will just make you look silly.

John called Him the BEAST. He will MOST CERTAINLY have an Antichrist spirit. so WHY NOT call Him "the antichrist?"
Why is it you have a problem with this when must of the church does not?
 
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Viren

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No, it doesn't depend on us in the slightest. It solely is dependent on happening after the time of the tribulation has ended. It ends the day the two prophets are resurrected and are carried to heaven.

God doesn't change we do. When the bible says carried to heaven it's spiritual language.

Yes, which does not support the second coming being dependent upon us, rather we are dependent upon it.

So when John says "the time is near" and "all of this must soon take place" he actually meant 2000+ years in the future? God doesn't change like shifting shadow and Jesus was, is and is to come. He's independent of time or physical events.

No, neither that or any scripture states such a thing. New Jerusalem is a city that descends from heaven to begin the eternity. The Father and Son will live in this city with many people.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

It is described in great detail here:

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

When it says God and Jesus will live with the people it's referring to John 14:23 which states, Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

The New Jerusalem is God's people the church as Hebrew 12:22 states, But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn." That's why John 3:12 says to those who overcome I will make them a pillar in the temple. The temple is God's people.

It has been seen, and will be again when we see what John saw.

I agree. But he was caught up in spirit when he saw that. He wasn't looking through his physical eyes.
 
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BABerean2

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I don't even know what the doctrine is.

That is probably a good thing.

The doctrine says everything in the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation happened in 70 AD.

And therefore, Christ is not coming back to earth.

It is considered by most Christians to be heretical, and is forbidden on this forum.
.
 
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iamlamad

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I wonder if someone is a partial-preterist if they believe Rev. 12:1-5 is speaking of Jesus' birth?
Of if they think the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5 was a vision in John's past?

I was kicked out of "Rapture Ready" twice for suggesting that the rapture was not at Rev. 4:1, but was rather just before the 6th seal.
 
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parousia70

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Uh, did Christ return in AD 70 because his return is part of all the things that would happen:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

One thing at a time....
Did this one particular "event of the Olivet discourse" happen in 66-70 AD or not?
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
A simple "Yes it happened" or "No it did not happen" is all that is required.

Earlier you claimed you do not believe it happened.
I'm asking you to clarify.
 
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parousia70

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There are two beasts of Revelation. Only the second beast is the one known as the Antichrist, false Christ, false prophet, the man of sin, and so on and so on.

I realize this is your contention.
I also realize you have shown exactly ZERO biblical instruction that teaches that the beast is "also known as" ANY other biblical figure, proving that you have invented this doctrine out of thin air and that it is a doctrine that scripture, unadulterated knows NOTHING about.

You object loudly when you believe others invent doctrines that scripture knows nothing about, but apparently when you do the same thing, it's just fine and dandy, perfectly appropriate and acceptable. There is a word for that.

One person can be known by more than one name. However, he is never called john nor is he said to baptize anyone so your analogy is flawed.

No, my analogy is perfect.
The Beast of Revelation is is NEVER called antichrist, John the Baptist, Judas, Mary, Joseph, John, Paul, George or Ringo, etc...

I'll even take it one step furthur.
Not only is your "Beast is antichrtist" claim completely devoid of Scriptural proof, You also have ZERO Biblical instruction that teaches that Paul's Man of Sin/Son of Perdition is the same individual as The Beast Of Revelation.
NONE whatsoever, yet again, you have a man made doctrine you are clinging to that says they are the same.
Why you cling to such man made notions in the absence of ANY scriptural instruction to do so remains a mystery.
 
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parousia70

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Are you here just to play games? GO AWAY! You can call Him whatever. It won't affect him, it won't affect the church - it will just make you look silly.

I'll take my chances.

John called Him the BEAST. He will MOST CERTAINLY have an Antichrist spirit.

Show me the explicit teaching on the nature of the antichrist spirit that proves the Beast of Revelation "most certainly would have it".
There is very explicit, concrete teaching on the antichrist spirit available for you to appeal to, but so far you haven't. In fact no one here making the same claims you are making about who or what is antichrist, has yet appealed to this explicit teaching on antichrist. It continues to be very informative to the rest of us as to the validity of your claims.

Again, I posted a fool proof test that you can run ANY individual you want through that Positively proves whether he or she is or is not antichrist.
You can use that test if you like, or simply show the scripture that supports your claim.
 
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Viren

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That is probably a good thing.

The doctrine says everything in the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation happened in 70 AD.

And therefore, Christ is not coming back to earth.

It is considered by most Christians to be heretical, and is forbidden on this forum.
.

Yeah, I don't believe in that.

To me the temple was torn down when Christ died on the cross and the curtain of the holy of holies was torn. Then it was rebuilt 3 days later when he was resurrected. Jesus's spiritual body is the church.
 
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parousia70

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I wonder if someone is a partial-preterist if they believe Rev. 12:1-5 is speaking of Jesus' birth?

That is indeed the position held by notable Catholic partial preterists such as Dr Scott Hahn and James Aiken..but I don't know if holding that belief exclusively makes one a partial preterist.

Certainly, anyone who Believes the scriptural teaching that the last days were already underway in the 1st century is at least a PARTIAL preterist.
 
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Jan001

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2 is wrong. Not all the dead resurrect at this time. Only the dead in Christ, as they rise FIRST:

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The unsaved dead are said to rise a thousand years later Rev 20:5, whether that's exactly 1000, or less or more. But there is a long period of time before the rest of the dead resurrect.

Paul is speaking to fellow Christians. They are not concerned about the dead who are not in Christ. Paul does not state to these Christians that the dead not in Christ do not arise at the same time as the dead in Christ.

However, Jesus states that all the evil dead and all the good dead will arise when they hear His voice. All the dead bodies hear His voice at the same time and so they all arise at the same time.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. niv
The first bodily resurrection was 2000 years ago. Jesus is the firstfruits of all the dead. Some saints came out of their graves also. Matthew 27:51-53

The second and final bodily resurrection will not be until Jesus returns to earth to gather everyone together for the final judgment at the great white throne.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. nkjv
There are only two bodily resurrections and one of them has already happened.

We will agree to disagree. :)
 
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BABerean2

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I wonder if someone is a partial-preterist if they believe Rev. 12:1-5 is speaking of Jesus' birth?

If you believe the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, you are a partial-preterist.


Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Why don't we just take the text for what it says, instead of trying to make it fit our doctrine???

.
 
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Jan001

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We know from 2nd Peter chapter 3 that this rotten, sin-cursed, world is going to be burned up and replaced by the New Heavens and the New Earth on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief to the ungodly, in flaming fire, based on 2nd Thess. chapter 1. John the Baptist said He would baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE. We may be like the 3 Hebrew men in the fiery furnace. The 4th Man in the fire with us will own us, because He bought us with His Blood. If it happened to the 3 Hebrew men, it can happen again.

This may sound a little strange, however we tend to think of heaven as a spiritual place, with no substance. It is highly likely that the New Heavens and the New Earth will be just as real as the matter we now encounter, but it may be beyond our normal comprehension.

Computer screens and keyboards or smartphones we use are made up of mainly empty space consisting of tiny subatomic particles that we call electrons, protons and neutrons, made up of even smaller subatomic particles that we still do not totally understand.
We still do not know how atoms produce a gravitational field. We just know that more atoms produce a stronger field in a mathematical ratio, based on the mass.

The New Heavens and the New Earth, with the New Jerusalem are coming here.
We will live there with Abraham, David, the other Old Testaments Saints and the New Testament Saints forever.

This is plainly written in God's Word.
However, we will not be able to understand it totally, until it happens.

We just have to accept it as the truth, based on faith.


I know God's people will inherit the earth to enjoy, but Scripture states that heaven is God's throne and earth is His footstool. Unless God changes His mind, His throne will remain in heaven and we will live with Him there in one of the many rooms of His home.

Acts 7:49
Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool
. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest? nkjv

John 14:2-4
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.” niv​
 
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Jan001

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You sure are a disagreeable fellow.

When I've said all I can say about a subject according to my own understanding of the subject, it is time to move on to something else. :)
 
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