This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[FreeGrace2]

BrotherJerry - you must be using the Vanwold translation then. (Old joke from way back - but I bet FG gets it)

Nope. Never heard of Vanwold or his translation. Maybe I'm not as old as others, who do know about him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I can not understand how anyone can say what you're saying except for the reason you can't stomach the truth about the doctrine of election of individuals.

To be clear, the Bible DOES teach about election. But it's just not the kind that Calvinists think it is. All elections in the Bible are about being chosen for special privilege and service. I can prove this by listing the 6 categories (for lack of a better word) of election that the Bible indicates, and NONE of these categories were chosen for salvation. The list begins with Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1

 

[FreeGrace2]

What he said there was utter nonsense.

It's ok to admit when one doesn't understand what was said.

One only needs to look at the scripture quoted below, as it stands, to see what is being talked about. It is about the wisdom and understanding of those who have "the mind of Christ" (those who have had things revealed "through the Spirit" of God) over against that of "the rulers of this age" (natural men) who "crucified the Lord of glory" - to see that Paul is talking about the unregenerate vs. the regenerate (those being taught by "human wisdom" over against those "taught by the Spirit".

Since I agree with this, it seems you're also on the side of "utter nonsense" then.

The Word of God follows:

"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,

“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 1For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:8-16 (FROM THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION -I hope that's an OK translation for all of you to work with.)

How come v.6 and 7 were excluded, since they ADD context that leads to 2:14?

So, to complete the context, here they are:
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

Here in v.6 Paul is telling the Corinthian believers that he speaks "wisdom among the mature", which is a reference to spiritual maturity. Which comes ONLY through study of God's Word and assimilation of it. In fact, Peter noted the same thing in 2 Pet 3:18 - but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

I won't be dealing directly with FreeGrace2 any more because he has shown himself dishonest in a prior post as I have mentioned. He has done the same thing in the past and I simply won't deal with it any more.

Your opinion is totally false, but feel free to do whatever you want.

I hope that won't get me banned from the forum again. But I call them as I see them and I have seen his tricks many times.

FreeGrace2 is probably reading along. But - in case he is not - perhaps you can correct him on this point so that he won't be judged too harshly when the time comes because he didn't read the passage carefully enough.

lol

You've shown NO such tricks; only claimed them. You've not proven your claims with any evidence from the thread about my posts or Scripture that backs up your claims regarding theology.

So, what's left? Attack the poster since you cannot provide any evidence to refute him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

A serious error your holding to there.
Equating the natural, non spiritual in v14 man, to be saved, would require them to be a spiritually minded man.
v12, is NOT just for better learners, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers born of God. And it is that same PERSON off the Holy Spirit that leads guides and teaches His people into all truth, just as Jesus said, and as this verse teaches.
You are in opposition to the Holy Spirit here. Claiming that the saved Christian believer you teach and believe has not received the Holy Spirit.
Serious error.

12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

Why are you over-complicating the gospel message? The gospel message is pretty short and clear.

What I believe that FreeGrace2 was saying is that one does NOT have to be saved to understand the gospel message. One does not need to have any special qualifications only faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, dying for the sins of the world.

Let's not over-complicate the gospel, nor what is required by us, faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you cannot - you do not have the ability. That's really simple.

Thinking that Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world and desire that ALL come to Him in faith, but then to not give the ability to do so is messed up doctrine.

Even those who have very little faith can come to Christ.

The idea of Calvanism is so out there. It makes no sense at all. It limits the people who can come to Christ which is dangerous doctrine. God does not say ALL and then limit that to some.

God is holy. God doesn't say one thing and then turn around and do something totally against what He said.

Creating two groups of people, the elect and the non-elect in no way makes any sense at all. When did Jesus ever put anyone in two separate camps.

Why didn't Jesus send the non-elect away while He was teaching so more elect could hear His words? Did Jesus know who the elect were when He was performing miracles and healings? I would imagine He would not heal non-elect peoples that are headed straight to hell anyways. That would give them false hope in their lives. False hope that they could ever understand or believe in Jesus Christ.

Following that line of thought, I don;'t think that Christ being perfect could even allow someone to hear a saving message about heaven that they had no ability to accept.

That would not be holy, so how does all that work?

 

[expos4ever]

Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy".

I see no reason to believe that Romans 9 has anything whatsoever to say on the matter of the predestination of individual persons to an ultimate destiny. This text is often appealed to in order to support the belief that God fore-ordains who gets saved. But this clearly does not honour context. This passage is Paul's full-dress treatment of how God has hardened Israel as part of His grand plan of redemption. It is a specifically historical argument about a particular thing God did in history - harden Israel. To generalize it beyond that it is to miss the very particular point that Paul is making - God hardened Israel to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Romans 11 hits you over the head with this).

At best, the only support this chapter might offer to the standard "predestination" position is that it establishes that, yes, God can be in the business of fore-ordaining the hardening of people. But that's about it - one needs to make a further case that God actually does predestine individuals.

 

[sdowney717]

I see no reason to believe that Romans 9 has anything whatsoever to say on the matter of the predestination of individual persons to an ultimate destiny. This text is often appealed to in order to support the belief that God fore-ordains who gets saved. But this clearly does not honour context. This passage is Paul's full-dress treatment of how God has hardened Israel as part of His grand plan of redemption. It is a specifically historical argument about a particular thing God did in history - harden Israel. To generalize it beyond that it is to miss the very particular point that Paul is making - God hardened Israel to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Romans 11 hits you over the head with this).

At best, the only support this chapter might offer to the standard "predestination" position is that it establishes that, yes, God can be in the business of fore-ordaining the hardening of people. But that's about it - one needs to make a further case that God actually does predestine individuals.

Both Peter and Paul and Luke, included the concept of being foreordained to salvation
Romans 8, the amplified bible

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

1 Peter, an apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior).

Whole passage in context.
38 So let it be clearly known and understood by you, brethren, that through this Man forgiveness and removal of sins is now proclaimed to you;

39 And that through Him everyone who believes [who acknowledges Jesus as his Savior and devotes himself to Him] is absolved (cleared and freed) from every charge from which he could not be justified and freed by the Law of Moses and given right standing with God.

40 Take care, therefore, lest there come upon you what is spoken in the prophets:

41 Look, you scoffers and scorners, and marvel and perish and vanish away; for I am doing a deed in your days, a deed which you will never have confidence in or believe, [even] if someone [clearly describing it in detail] declares it to you.the attainment through Christ of salvation in the kingdom of God].

45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, filled with envy and jealousy they contradicted what was said by Paul and talked abusively [reviling and slandering him].

46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out plainly and boldly, saying, It was necessary that God’s message [concerning salvation through Christ] should be spoken to you first. But since you thrust it from you, you pass this judgment on yourselves that you are unworthy of eternal life and out of your own mouth you will be judged. [Now] behold, we turn to the Gentiles (the heathen).

47 For so the Lord has charged us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles (the heathen), that you may bring [eternal] salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior).

49 And so the Word of the Lord [concerning eternal salvation through Christ] scattered andspread throughout the whole region.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Both Peter and Paul and Luke, included the concept of being foreordained to salvation
Romans 8, the amplified bible

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We are all regenerated, have the Holy Spirit so Jesus is the first born and we who follow after Him have been conformed in His image.

Since God knows all things and is not held to 'time' as we know it here on earth, I do not think that these verses prove that at all. Because the 'He' in these verses is obviously God.

Everyone who is saved is justified. We only love God and have God's perfect plan for us after we have been saved.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Both Peter and Paul and Luke, included the concept of being foreordained to salvation
Romans 8, the amplified bible

I wouldn't quote from the Amplified Bible. They take too many liberties in translation, in my opinion.

 

[brotherjerry]

Marvin,

If you cannot - you do not have the ability. That's really simple.

It's not a matter of looking at someone and see if the "can" and then saying that they do not have the ability. It is a matter of listening to what God says about them (that they cannot) and agreeing that they do not have the ability.

It seems to me like you are just arguing to argue here.

Your right Marvin...it is real simple...everyone has the ability to throw a free throw. You cannot tell who is going to make it until they actually use that ability and throw the ball...but everyone has the ability to throw the ball.

I would respond more...but ToBeLoved said it quite eloquently

Thinking that Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world and desire that ALL come to Him in faith, but then to not give the ability to do so is messed up doctrine.

Thanks ToBeLoved

I would also add that not only is it a messed up doctrine...it is a completely unBiblical doctrine.

 

[brotherjerry]

I wouldn't quote from the Amplified Bible. They take too many liberties in translation, in my opinion.

I agree...there is WAY too much stuff added to those quotes that do not appear in the original texts and translations.

 

[sdowney717]

I agree...there is WAY too much stuff added to those quotes that do not appear in the original texts and translations.

You obviously do not like that, but that is what the wording in the text contextually means.

 

[sdowney717]

About God choosing us for salvation Paul writes about His calling of us to the Heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb, that is to be His people to obtain and also share in the glory of Jesus Christ, that is all whom He calls, whom He foreknew, God and Christ have predestined to be glorified.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His first fruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth.

14 [It was] to this end that He called you through our Gospel, so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, Who loved us and gave us everlasting consolation and encouragement and well-founded hope through [His] grace (unmerited favor),

17 Comfort and encourage your hearts and strengthen them [make them steadfast and keep them unswerving] in every good work and word.

 

[sdowney717]

Marvin,


Your right Marvin...it is real simple...everyone has the ability to throw a free throw. You cannot tell who is going to make it until they actually use that ability and throw the ball...but everyone has the ability to throw the ball.

I would respond more...but ToBeLoved said it quite eloquently


Thanks ToBeLoved

I would also add that not only is it a messed up doctrine...it is a completely unBiblical doctrine.

Ha, no it is biblically sound doctrine as Marvin has said the truth and also as the Word made flesh testifies.
Which is why Jesus says this, you must be granted to come to Christ by God.
Which is why Christ says some do not believe at all.
Context is always key to gaining the true meaning of what the word speaks.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
John 6:64
64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

John 6:65
And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

v64, why do some fail to believe??
v65, Christ says because they are not enabled to come, this has not been granted to them that they believe. I know this grates on your flesh and so too did it upset some of his disciples so much that they left off following Christ.

Jesus says though, blessed is he who takes no offense at Me.
John 6:66
66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I see no reason to believe that Romans 9 has anything whatsoever to say on the matter of the predestination of individual persons to an ultimate destiny. This text is often appealed to in order to support the belief that God fore-ordains who gets saved. But this clearly does not honour context. This passage is Paul's full-dress treatment of how God has hardened Israel as part of His grand plan of redemption. It is a specifically historical argument about a particular thing God did in history - harden Israel. To generalize it beyond that it is to miss the very particular point that Paul is making - God hardened Israel to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Romans 11 hits you over the head with this).

At best, the only support this chapter might offer to the standard "predestination" position is that it establishes that, yes, God can be in the business of fore-ordaining the hardening of people. But that's about it - one needs to make a further case that God actually does predestine individuals.

Both Jacob and Esau were and are real individuals.

Yes - God uses their example to illustrate the truth you are observing concerning Israel vs. the gentiles and such.

But Jacob and Esau are not fictitious examples thought up by God to illustrate that point. They are real people who live and still live. One was loved by God before he was born and one was hated by God before he was born.

This teaches election unto salvation before birth pure and simple - whatever else may also be illustrated in the passage.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Your right Marvin...it is real simple...everyone has the ability to throw a free throw. You cannot tell who is going to make it until they actually use that ability and throw the ball...but everyone has the ability to throw the ball.

We aren't talking about throwing a ball toward a hole. We are talking about the ability to make the free throw - not take the free throw.

 

[expos4ever]

1. The Bible is an evolving narrative - a story - and we need to honour that story. That means tempering any interpretations of the concept of the "the elect" (and similar terms) according to how those terms are used in the story.

2. For much of the story, it is crystal clear who the "elect" are. It is the nation of Israel. This already should engender suspicion about the conventional Calvinist take on the matter of election.

3. Then Jesus enters the story and, for reasons I cannot get into now, He takes over the role of Israel as "the elect".

4. We accept Jesus thereby attaining the status of being "in Christ" and thereby becoming heirs to the benefits of being "the elect"; however, and this is a huge however, we gain those benefits solely through the fact that Jesus, and Jesus alone bears the mantle of being the "elect". I must reiterate: This is the Biblical picture of election. The Calvinist ignores this in believing that each of us, as individuals is considered to be the recipient of election. But the Bible says that it is Israel and then Jesus (as the story moves along) who are the true recipients ("targets") of election.

5. I think you know where this is going. Since Jesus is the focus of election under the new covenant, we can legitimately claim that we freely accept Jesus and thereby and only thereby inherit the benefits of such election.

This is all about honoring the story. And the story places the seal of election squarely on Israel and then on Jesus as fulfiller of Israel's covenant obligations. To see ourselves as 'the elect' outside this framework is to miss the point in a major way.

Yes, there is language about Christians being "predestined to this and predestined to that". But, and this is key, in the context of the unfolding narrative, we are only thus pre-destined in virtue of being "in Christ" - the true focus of election promises. And I suggest there is nothing in the Scriptures that forces us to conclude that a specific set of persons were pre-destined to be in Christ.

It's as if, at the beginning of time, God "elected" the 2015 Kansas City Royals to win the World Series. In this analogy, the "target" of election is the corporate entity known as the Kansas City Royals. But to elect the 2015 KC Royals to win the WS does not logically entail electing the members of that team.

 

[expos4ever]

Both Jacob and Esau were and are real individuals.

Yes - God uses their example to illustrate the truth you are observing concerning Israel vs. the gentiles and such.

But Jacob and Esau are not fictitious examples thought up by God to illustrate that point. They are real people who live and still live. One was loved by God before he was born and one was hated by God before he was born.

This teaches election unto salvation before birth pure and simple - whatever else may also be illustrated in the passage.

In Romans 9, the eternal status of Jacob and Esau is nowhere on Paul's mind. The following text does not even address the issue of eternal destinies of Jacob or Esau. Paul tells us what they are "elected to" - that one will serve the other:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

The word election here means "choice". And what is the choice? Well what does Paul say? It is God's choice that the nation of Edom (Esau) will be dominated by the nation of Israel (Jacob). How do we know this? Paul tells us. He writes that Rebekah was told the purpose of God's choice. And he quotes from Genesis:
The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger

And history shows that this came to pass - the Israelites did dominate the Edomites. And Paul knew this, of course.

Imagine Paul sitting there with his scribe, having just dictated "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". Where does this statement leave the reader? Obviously, it leaves the reader asking "Well, what is that purpose? What is God "choosing" or "selecting" Jacob and Esau for, exactly?"

So Paul answers this question: They were chosen / selected / elected to a state where "the older will serve the younger". Eternal destiny is nowhere in sight.

If Paul is addressing selection or election to eternal life or eternal loss in relation to Jacob and Esau, you have to believe that, after raising the topic of God's purpose in election, Paul has suffered a sudden bout of amnesia and makes an entirely unannounced and immediate transition to a different subject altogether - the issue of something else that God selected these two for. That is, one serving the other.

What kind of a writer would do that ? First, state that God has one purpose in selection (election) for two people, and then spell out the details of an entirely different election?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You obviously do not like that, but that is what the wording in the text contextually means.

In fact, the amplified Bible is just a paraphrase. Not any different than anyone's else's opinion of what the Bible supposedly means.

For that reason, I stay away from any paraphrased version.

 

[FreeGrace2]

About God choosing us for salvation Paul writes about His calling of us to the Heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb, that is to be His people to obtain and also share in the glory of Jesus Christ, that is all whom He calls, whom He foreknew, God and Christ have predestined to be glorified.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His first fruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth.

Paul made clear WHO he chooses for salvation: those with "belief in the Truth". He said it bit differently in 1 Cor 1:21 - "God was pleased to save those who believe".