This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said point blank that there is no “ability” involved in choosing the Lord. I was demonstrating throughout my post that there is indeed “ability” involved and that that ability has not been given to everyone.

The claim was never "demonstrated". It was just claimed. No Scripture that says what is being claimed.

Some have the ability and some do not. That was the point I was making in my post.

The Bible is clear that there are those who refuse to believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again – the “natural” man does not have the ability to understand and accept the things of God. He has to be given that “ability” through the impartation of spiritual life which he lacks as a “natural” fallen man.

One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

The point is this: doctrines beyond the gospel cannot be understood by the natural man.

 

[brotherjerry]

Marvin the response is always appreciated.

I completely understand that much of what I was speaking of was in reference to the concept of election. Something you mentioned, in that "not everyone has the ability" And you equated the wind to that concept. You were talking about God authoring faith and that "God does not do that for every man who ever lives" with the idea of the wind in the conversation with Nicodemus. I merely pointed out how the wind being talked about in that conversation has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit bouncing back and forth like the wind spreading the election of God, which was an idea that Sdowney added in his response to you...Admittedly I should have also added him to my response...and for that I do apologize.

My responses focused mainly on the concept of election and the erred doctrine that God gave some the ability and others not. This is not a Biblical teaching, and one that defies that God Loved THE WORLD, so much so that He gave His only Son as a sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin.

Your explanation of John 6:37 still does not address how that verse says anything about resisting or something being irresistable. Becauase it does not speak of that. The verse does not specify anything about a specific election of people that God has chosen above any others. And while you say one could connect the dots...I don't see any other dots to connect it too

The principle of God’s dealing with men as they deal with Him is set forth clearly throughout scripture. We have such things as Pharaoh hardening his heart and God also hardening his heart reciprocally. We have the principles set forth in Romans that say such things as “because” they acted in a depraved way He “gave them over” to even more depravity and “because” they did not believe such and such He let them believe a lie etc. etc.

That is all correct, God let's man go his own way...that is free will. But in none of the examples you mentioned here there was always the choice of man to change things in the beginning. Man could have chosen to follow God and not the Flesh.

This idea of some being given the ability to receive based on the fact that they received what they were given before and others having that ability withheld because they did not receive is a basic principle of the Kingdom of God. I’m surprised you are unaware of it.

I am aware of it, and believe in every verse you put down. Just not to the idea that God selects some for salvation and others He does not offer salvation too. All man is given the "ability" to receive Christ. Jesus died for ALL, not a few. God made the first move by paying the price for our sin, it is now up to man to accept that free gift or not.

Your comments on John 6. Yes that verse says that some are drawn by the Father...it does not say anything about "enabling". You get this by treating the verse as an island. When you put it into the context of the surrounding verses and the rest of the Bible it teaches a different message, one that expresses that man (any man) has the ability to hear, and learn from the Father. Vs 45 "EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Learning can be gained through asking God, James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him" John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

2 Corinthians 2 comments. Again you take things as an island. I already pointed out the natural man aspect of things and the context of the verse is speaking of mature wisdom of the Spirit of God. And a natural minded person, an unsaved person does not accept them...they consider it foolish...how many times have you heard an atheist say that God is not loving because he destroyed the world and saved Noah, or that God is not just because He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Those are silly things to the unsaved. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not mature wisdom, it is so simple a child can understand it. Matthew 18:3 "unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" The natural man here does not mean that there are people who were never given an "ability" to understand the gospel, it does mean that those who are unsaved will not understand the deeper nature of God expressed throughout the Bible.

So again...this is not a dot you can use to connect to anything else of the election or "ability" doctrines you mention.

John 8 discussion...

If some cannot and some can it goes to prove that some have an ability that others lack

It is not that some cannot and some can...that is where you are getting it wrong. It is some will not but some will. They reason that some "cannot" is because they themselves do not desire too...meaning they will not.

If the natural man cannot understand and receive the Word of God and one is born again and enters the Kingdom of God by receiving the Word of God – it follows that there must be an “ability” that some have that others lack (namely “natural” men) both to understand and enter into the Kingdom of God.

How do you figure? if everyone has the abilty but some refuse to act upon that ability, while others do....that does not indicate that some do and some don't have the ability...that is failed logic there. The idea that the Bible would imply a message of "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God", but sorry God only decided to give some of you the ability to overcome that sin.... That does not jive with the Bible when it also speaks that Christs Sacrifice was for ALL, or that God desires ALL men to receive eternal life.

But election and "ability" by your definition are pretty much one and the same. You claim that God decides who gets the ability, and then God gives that ability...how is that any different than God electing certain people for salvation and not electing others?

 

[brotherjerry]

One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

The point is this: doctrines beyond the gospel cannot be understood by the natural man.

Is what I told him

 

[sdowney717]

Is what I told him

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/newbirth2.html

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe
...And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63, 65)

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

 

[sdowney717]

Is what I told him

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

A serious error your holding to there.
Equating the natural, non spiritual in v14 man, to be saved, would require them to be a spiritually minded man.
v12, is NOT just for better learners, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers born of God. And it is that same PERSON off the Holy Spirit that leads guides and teaches His people into all truth, just as Jesus said, and as this verse teaches.
You are in opposition to the Holy Spirit here. Claiming that the saved Christian believer you teach and believe has not received the Holy Spirit.
Serious error.

12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

 

[brotherjerry]

Sdowney...thanks for the response

But did you read what I had said about John 6 earlier?

Here it is again just in case.
Jesus is speaking directly to the Jews, because they were grumbling (vs 41) They were questioning if Jesus was from God since He had a mother and father that they knew (vs 42). Right after the verse you cite Jeuss says in John 6:45 "...everyone who has heard and learned form the Father, comes to me" We are the ones who have to hear, in verse 47 Jesus says "he who believes has eternal life", after we hear if we believe we have eternal life. This too goes against election, if you cannot resist God's call, then there is no belief. It is also important to point out that in John 6 Jesus talks about the calling of the 12 that includes Judas, one who did not believe...a prime example that all are called, but some may not listen as spoken of in Matthew 13. And Jesus says in verse 70 "Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" So Christ called the 12.

Even as FG pointed out...John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him upon the last day"

So John 6 does not speak of certain people being called by God and other ignored.

Aaaaannnd Romans 8. Again cherry pick and ignore the rest. First off those that were predestined is not speaking of the individuals. It is speaking in plurality "those, these, etc". Christians were predestined....that there would be a sacrifice of Christ was ordained. It is not speaking that God predestined sdowney to be conformed, or brotherjerry to be conformed, but believers will be conformed. Who can be a believer? Anyone that believes, it is not God choosing you and not the guy next to you.

 

[brotherjerry]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

A serious error your holding to there.
Equating the natural, non spiritual in v14 man, to be saved, would require them to be a spiritually minded man.
v12, is NOT just for better learners, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers born of God. And it is that same PERSON off the Holy Spirit that leads guides and teaches His people into all truth, just as Jesus said, and as this verse teaches.
You are in opposition to the Holy Spirit here. Claiming that the saved Christian believer you teach and believe has not received the Holy Spirit.
Serious error.

12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

Not a serious error at all. You simply ignored the context of what was being spoken of here. Paul was speaking of mature wisdom. Vs 6 "a message of wisdom to those who are spiritually mature" He continues "But it is not the wisdom (that mature wisdom) that belongs to this world or to the powers that rule this world". Paul whole piece here is that we should not engage in discussions of a more mature nature with someone who is not a saved person, they will not understand it...they will think it foolish. Paul is NOT talking about the Gospel of Christ.

And I do not know what Bible you are using, or if you paraphrased and added your comments to those verse....but my Bible doesn't say anything like what you wrote

 

[sdowney717]

Not a serious error at all. You simply ignored the context of what was being spoken of here. Paul was speaking of mature wisdom. Vs 6 "a message of wisdom to those who are spiritually mature" He continues "But it is not the wisdom (that mature wisdom) that belongs to this world or to the powers that rule this world". Paul whole piece here is that we should not engage in discussions of a more mature nature with someone who is not a saved person, they will not understand it...they will think it foolish. Paul is NOT talking about the Gospel of Christ.

And I do not know what Bible you are using, or if you paraphrased and added your comments to those verse....but my Bible doesn't say anything like what you wrote

It is the amplified version. And it is a serious error but you are unable to see that at this time.

 

[AndOne]

BrotherJerry - you must be using the Vanwold translation then. (Old joke from way back - but I bet FG gets it)

 

[sdowney717]

Sdowney...thanks for the response

But did you read what I had said about John 6 earlier?

Here it is again just in case.
Jesus is speaking directly to the Jews, because they were grumbling (vs 41) They were questioning if Jesus was from God since He had a mother and father that they knew (vs 42). Right after the verse you cite Jeuss says in John 6:45 "...everyone who has heard and learned form the Father, comes to me" We are the ones who have to hear, in verse 47 Jesus says "he who believes has eternal life", after we hear if we believe we have eternal life. This too goes against election, if you cannot resist God's call, then there is no belief. It is also important to point out that in John 6 Jesus talks about the calling of the 12 that includes Judas, one who did not believe...a prime example that all are called, but some may not listen as spoken of in Matthew 13. And Jesus says in verse 70 "Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" So Christ called the 12.

Even as FG pointed out...John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him upon the last day"

So John 6 does not speak of certain people being called by God and other ignored.

Aaaaannnd Romans 8. Again cherry pick and ignore the rest. First off those that were predestined is not speaking of the individuals. It is speaking in plurality "those, these, etc". Christians were predestined....that there would be a sacrifice of Christ was ordained. It is not speaking that God predestined sdowney to be conformed, or brotherjerry to be conformed, but believers will be conformed. Who can be a believer? Anyone that believes, it is not God choosing you and not the guy next to you.

Another serious error, those predestined is speaking of individuals.
'For those whom HE foreknew' is speaking of individual persons.
I can not understand how anyone can say what you're saying except for the reason you can't stomach the truth about the doctrine of election of individuals. So you pull out all sorts of word tricks but they just fall flat. I have gone round and round with others like freegrace on these issues in the past, and wont hash them all out again.

 

[Marvin Knox]

One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

The point is this: doctrines beyond the gospel cannot be understood by the natural man.

Is what I told him

What he said there was utter nonsense.

One only needs to look at the scripture quoted below, as it stands, to see what is being talked about. It is about the wisdom and understanding of those who have "the mind of Christ" (those who have had things revealed "through the Spirit" of God) over against that of "the rulers of this age" (natural men) who "crucified the Lord of glory" - to see that Paul is talking about the unregenerate vs. the regenerate (those being taught by "human wisdom" over against those "taught by the Spirit".

Read it yourself and don't be so quick to jump on board with someone just because he is "on you side". Your judgment as a teacher will have to stand by itself. The fact that others are on your side in the forum won't make a hill of beans of difference when you stand to receive your "stricter judgment" before the Judgment Seat of Christ because you stepped out here in the forum as a "teacher".

The Word of God follows:

"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,

“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 1For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:8-16 (FROM THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION -I hope that's an OK translation for all of you to work with.)

I won't be dealing directly with FreeGrace2 any more because he has shown himself dishonest in a prior post as I have mentioned. He has done the same thing in the past and I simply won't deal with it any more.

I hope that won't get me banned from the forum again. But I call them as I see them and I have seen his tricks many times.

FreeGrace2 is probably reading along. But - in case he is not - perhaps you can correct him on this point so that he won't be judged too harshly when the time comes because he didn't read the passage carefully enough.

 

[brotherjerry]

Another serious error, those predestined is speaking of individuals.
'For those whom HE foreknew' is speaking of individual persons.
I can not understand how anyone can say what you're saying except for the reason you can't stomach the truth about the doctrine of election of individuals. So you pull out all sorts of word tricks but they just fall flat. I have gone round and round with others like freegrace on these issues in the past, and wont hash them all out again.

Ummm...no. First "those" is plural...means more than one. No word tricks there. Funny you would say that when you quote a version of the Bible that adds tons of words that are not present in the actual text.
Then looking at the context of Romans 8 to see who Paul is talking about.
Verse 1 "to those who are in Christ Jesus" 'those' is plural..those people...being in Christ Jesus means being saved.
Verse 4 "...the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us..." 'us' is plural...speaking again of those who are saved.
Paul shifts to individuals in verse 9,10,11.
Paul shifts back to plural in verse 12 "So then, brethren, we are under..." Brethren is more than one, we is plural as well. Again reference to followers of Christ.
back and forth a little.
vs 26 "helps our weakness","for we do not know","pray as we should","Spirit Himself intercedes for us" - all plural speaking of Christians
vs 27 "He intercedes for the Saints"
vs 28 "And we know","good to those","to those who are called" again we are speaking plural about all Christians.
vs 29 -30 the verses you believe speak of individuals being predestined
vs 31 "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?" We plural...us..plural. God predestined us (Followers of Christ) to be conformed to the image of Christ, to receive a purpose, even a calling as a Christian, to be justified and glorified. Christians are what Israel was, a chosen people. Just as God predestined a chosen people in the old covenant, we too are chosen, predestined, in the new covenant.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:7 "but we speak of God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;" The hidden wisdom that God predestined included the coming of Christ. God ordained that Christ would have to come and be a perfect sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin.

The idea that only certain people were "elected" or predestined to receive salvation goes against what the Bible clearly says about the purpose of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
- This does not mean that all will be saved, but all can receive salvation
Romans 5:18 Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

We see that ALL have the "ability" (as Marvin would say). But many will choose not to act on that ability.

We also know that the Bible tells us our thoughts and actions here on earth determine our eternal destiny, this clearly negates the concept of God electing certain people and not electing others.
Romans 2:6 God will repay each according to what they have done.
Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sin, your Father will not forgive your sins
John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me 'Lord,Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Galations 6:7 A man reaps what he sows

There are plenty more, but when you look at the entire picture we can clearly see that Christ died for all. But only those that believe join Him in the resurrection and experience the new birth, becoming a new creature in Christ. Any sort of limitation on this removes free will, and removes God's justness.

 

[Marvin Knox]

How do you figure? if everyone has the abilty but some refuse to act upon that ability, while others do....that does not indicate that some do and some don't have the ability...that is failed logic there.

Jesus says clearly that the natural man "CANNOT". That says that some (the natural among us) do not have the ability. Since we all know that some of us do (witness you and I for instance) then we can deduce from that that some do and some don't have the ability.

This, in itself, simply says that some have abilities that others don't. Since God gives life to natural man (making him a spiritual man) then God's gives abilities to some that others are not given. This isn't rocket science really. It's pretty basic logic IMO.

The idea that the Bible would imply a message of "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God", but sorry God only decided to give some of you the ability to overcome that sin.... That does not jive with the Bible when it also speaks that Christs Sacrifice was for ALL, or that God desires ALL men to receive eternal life.

You really don't want fairness do you? What is "fair" is that we all go to Hell. Do you not agree with that? If not you need to take a trip down to the river and identify with all the other sinners in this world.

As God says in Psams 51:21, "You thought that I was altogether like you."

God is not altogether like us. His thoughts are far above ours and His ways are inscrutable. We cannot reason from fairness alone. We have to go by that it says in the Word of God - whether it seems fair or not.

But election and "ability" by your definition are pretty much one and the same. You claim that God decides who gets the ability, and then God gives that ability...how is that any different than God electing certain people for salvation and not electing others?

They are not the same. But they are related. This is true with most theological concepts.

And yes - I do believe that God elects some to salvation and others He passes by. If God elects one and passes by the other it doesn't make the other less guilty. It just makes the one the recipient of grace (undeserved favor - the very way you were saved according to the scriptures).

Like so many others before you - you give lip service to the fact that you were saved by "grace" and then say that it couldn't have been "unmerited favor" because that would be unfair to the one not receiving it. That makes no sense at all. Either you believe that we are all guilty and that you have received unmerited favor (grace) or you do not.

No one (according to the doctrines of grace) is forced to believe and no one is kept from responding. All natural men do what comes natural to them.

And - all new creations do what comes natural to them. You are not complaining that God made you a new creation and passed Adolf Hitler by are you? I know I don't. I just praise Him that He gave me favor when I didn't deserve it - without worrying about His fairness to others. We can trust the kind of God who would lay down His life for us to be fair can't we?

Since we are dealing with the eternally existent God who has always known all things - we can know that even election in the eternal past did not keep the creation from making choices.

Predestination and election go hand in hand with the free choices of men and angel. If you wait til you can understand it before you will accept that fact - you will find yourself teaching error in this world.

As with that principle I referred to concerning stewardship - we need to believe Him first and then He will give us more insight because of the way we listened.

Would that Adam and Eve had done that in the garden concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I'd much rather they had believed God first, even though it made no sense. Then, I'm sure, God would have explained what it all meant in a different way than this terrible situation we've been subjected to.

 

[brotherjerry]

What he said there was utter nonsense.

One only needs to look at the scripture quoted below, as it stands, to see what is being talked about. It is about the wisdom and understanding of those who have "the mind of Christ" (those who have had things revealed "through the Spirit" of God) over against that of "the rulers of this age" (natural men) who "crucified the Lord of glory" - to see that Paul is talking about the unregenerate vs. the regenerate (those being taught by "human wisdom" over against those "taught by the Spirit".

Read it yourself and don't be so quick to jump on board with someone just because he is "on you side". Your judgment as a teacher will have to stand by itself. The fact that others are on your side in the forum won't make a hill of beans of difference when you stand to receive your "stricter judgment" before the Judgment Seat of Christ because you stepped out here in the forum as a "teacher".

The Word of God follows:

"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,

“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 1For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:8-16 (FROM THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION -I hope that's an OK translation for all of you to work with.)

I won't be dealing directly with FreeGrace2 any more because he has shown himself dishonest in a prior post as I have mentioned. He has done the same thing in the past and I simply won't deal with it any more.

I hope that won't get me banned from the forum again. But I call them as I see them and I have seen his tricks many times.

FreeGrace2 is probably reading along. But - in case he is not - perhaps you can correct him on this point so that he won't be judged too harshly when the time comes because he didn't read the passage carefully enough.

Ummm...I was not jumping on board with anything...I already explained to you what Paul was talking about and too in 1 Corinthians 2. You seemed to ignore the context of what was going on. Paul was not talking about the Gospel Message. That is so easy a child could understand it. But Paul was talking about deeper doctrines and deeper understandings of God. "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature" Paul was not talking about people who are older, but instead was referring to people who were more mature in their Scriptural understanding, and their relationship with Christ. The hidden mysteries spoke of include the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament. Paul starts this Epistle off saying that he did not come to Corinth with superior wisdom, proclaiming testimony of God, but instead the simple Gospel of Christ. Paul differentiates the understanding of the two by "the testimony of God" and "Christ Jesus, and Him crucified".

One could not describe God in a single verse, one could not give the testimony of God in a single verse. But one could sum up the Gospel in a single verse. John 3:16 is an example of that. Romans 5:8, 1 Corinthians 15:3-6.

 

[brotherjerry]

Marvin,

Jesus says clearly that the natural man "CANNOT". That says that some (the natural among us) do not have the ability. Since we all know that some of us do (witness you and I for instance) then we can deduce from that that some do and some don't have the ability.

No it does not! Can you look at someone and tell if they have the ability to throw a free throw in basketball?

You really don't want fairness do you? What is "fair" is that we all go to Hell. Do you not agree with that? If not you need to take a trip down to the river and identify with all the other sinners in this world.

Fair is not just. One should never mix the two...fair is subjective, being just is not. God is just.
Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

God does not lie
Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago

So if God is just and God cannot lie. When the Bible says that Christ died for all, then He must have died for all and not some.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates HIs own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for the sinners..it does not say for some sinners, or a few sinners...it just says sinners.
1 Corinthians 15:3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

So the Bible says that Christ paid the penalty of sin. This sacrifice gives everyone the "ability" to receive salvation.

And I was saved by grace. But it was not because God played duck duck goose and I was the goose, as election would indicate. The grace that God has shown for all man kind is that He paid the wages of sin. 1 Peter 2:24 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; " It is that sacrifice that was God's grace. Romans 3:24-25 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Chrise Jesus; which God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith"

Your words here do clue me in that you may be confusing "fair" with "just". There is a difference. God playing duck duck goose with salvation is not only unfair by my subjective measures, it is unjust by Biblical standards. I would live with unfair by my standards because I am nothing. But God is not unjust, and the Bible says that Christ died for all, that was the grace that God showed for all "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in HIm shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but htat the world might be saved through Him" It does not say "some in the world" or "those elected in the world", it says "the world"

What also makes things just is that it is applied equally to all. A law is unjust if one person gets punished and someone else does the same thing and does not get punished. What would also be unjust is that a punishment was put down for breaking a law, and when the law was broken no punishment was dished out. We know God is just because we see time and time again in the Old Testament where Israel did not follow the Laws God had established, and He would punish them. None of the Laws of God said that one person would be punished while a different one would....it does not say "Thou Shalt not Steal if your name is Steve, but Joe can steal" That would be unjust.

And since God is just, and Christ died for all and not some, then salvation is also available for all. God's grace is given to all. Man as an individual must receive it though, man as an individual must believe. All men have the "ability", they all can believe, the question is will they believe.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin,
No it does not! Can you look at someone and tell if they have the ability to throw a free throw in basketball?

If you cannot - you do not have the ability. That's really simple.

It's not a matter of looking at someone and see if the "can" and then saying that they do not have the ability. It is a matter of listening to what God says about them (that they cannot) and agreeing that they do not have the ability.

It seems to me like you are just arguing to argue here.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates HIs own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for the sinners..it does not say for some sinners, or a few sinners...it just says sinners.
1 Corinthians 15:3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

I have never said that Christ did not die for all sinners. You must be mistaking me for some one else - perhaps a 5 point Calvinist.

So the Bible says that Christ paid the penalty of sin. This sacrifice gives everyone the "ability" to receive salvation.

That's not good logic.

It may give them the right to claim forgiveness through the gospel provisions. But it give no one the "ability" to respond and do so.

And I was saved by grace. But it was not because God played duck duck goose and I was the goose, as election would indicate. The grace that God has shown for all man kind is that He paid the wages of sin. 1 Peter 2:24 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; " It is that sacrifice that was God's grace. Romans 3:24-25 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Chrise Jesus; which God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith"

Your words here do clue me in that you may be confusing "fair" with "just". There is a difference. God playing duck duck goose with salvation is not only unfair by my subjective measures, it is unjust by Biblical standards. I would live with unfair by my standards because I am nothing. But God is not unjust, and the Bible says that Christ died for all, that was the grace that God showed for all "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in HIm shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but htat the world might be saved through Him" It does not say "some in the world" or "those elected in the world", it says "the world"

What also makes things just is that it is applied equally to all. A law is unjust if one person gets punished and someone else does the same thing and does not get punished. What would also be unjust is that a punishment was put down for breaking a law, and when the law was broken no punishment was dished out. We know God is just because we see time and time again in the Old Testament where Israel did not follow the Laws God had established, and He would punish them. None of the Laws of God said that one person would be punished while a different one would....it does not say "Thou Shalt not Steal if your name is Steve, but Joe can steal" That would be unjust.

And since God is just, and Christ died for all and not some, then salvation is also available for all. God's grace is given to all. Man as an individual must receive it though, man as an individual must believe.

I understand the difference between fair and just.

It would be fair if all sinners went to Hell had Christ not made provision for them and had none of them accepted that provision.

It would be just if all sinners went to Hell had they never received the gospel.

It would not be just for one who received the provisions of the gospel to go to Hell.

I have no idea what this "duck and goose" rendition of election is coming from. Whatever reasons God had for election of some and passing by others had nothing to do with some arbitrary game. No Reformed believer believes that.

I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone of my persuasion believes that anyone who believes the gospel will not be saved. "Who so ever will" is the cry of the Reformed and non Reformed evangelical as well.

Once again - I have never said that Christ did not die for the sins of the entire world.

You are starting to jump to conclusions about what I believe because of some erroneous preconceived notions about election and predestination. If you want to know what I believe - just ask.

All men have the "ability", they all can believe, the question is will they believe.

Jesus and Paul said otherwise.

I have to take a break from this. It is getting very tedious. That is especially true since you are now making assumptions about what I believe. You are in error about some things that Calvinists believe and teach as well.

 

[sdowney717]

Marvin,


No it does not! Can you look at someone and tell if they have the ability to throw a free throw in basketball?


Fair is not just. One should never mix the two...fair is subjective, being just is not. God is just.
Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

God does not lie
Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago

So if God is just and God cannot lie. When the Bible says that Christ died for all, then He must have died for all and not some.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates HIs own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for the sinners..it does not say for some sinners, or a few sinners...it just says sinners.
1 Corinthians 15:3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

So the Bible says that Christ paid the penalty of sin. This sacrifice gives everyone the "ability" to receive salvation.

And I was saved by grace. But it was not because God played duck duck goose and I was the goose, as election would indicate. The grace that God has shown for all man kind is that He paid the wages of sin. 1 Peter 2:24 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; " It is that sacrifice that was God's grace. Romans 3:24-25 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Chrise Jesus; which God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith"

Your words here do clue me in that you may be confusing "fair" with "just". There is a difference. God playing duck duck goose with salvation is not only unfair by my subjective measures, it is unjust by Biblical standards. I would live with unfair by my standards because I am nothing. But God is not unjust, and the Bible says that Christ died for all, that was the grace that God showed for all "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in HIm shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but htat the world might be saved through Him" It does not say "some in the world" or "those elected in the world", it says "the world"

What also makes things just is that it is applied equally to all. A law is unjust if one person gets punished and someone else does the same thing and does not get punished. What would also be unjust is that a punishment was put down for breaking a law, and when the law was broken no punishment was dished out. We know God is just because we see time and time again in the Old Testament where Israel did not follow the Laws God had established, and He would punish them. None of the Laws of God said that one person would be punished while a different one would....it does not say "Thou Shalt not Steal if your name is Steve, but Joe can steal" That would be unjust.

And since God is just, and Christ died for all and not some, then salvation is also available for all. God's grace is given to all. Man as an individual must receive it though, man as an individual must believe. All men have the "ability", they all can believe, the question is will they believe.

 

[sdowney717]

If you cannot - you do not have the ability. That's really simple.

It's not a matter of looking at someone and see if the "can" and then saying that they do not have the ability. It is a matter of listening to what God says about them (that they cannot) and agreeing that they do not have the ability.

It seems to me like you are just arguing to argue here.

I have never said that Christ did not die for all sinners. You must be mistaking me for some one else - perhaps a 5 point Calvinist.

That's not good logic.

It may give them the right to claim forgiveness through the gospel provisions. But it give no one the "ability" to respond and do so.

I understand the difference between fair and just.

It would be fair if all sinners went to Hell had Christ not made provision for them and had none of them accepted that provision.

It would be just if all sinners went to Hell had they never received the gospel.

It would not be just for one who received the provisions of the gospel to go to Hell.

I have no idea what this "duck and goose" rendition of election is coming from. Whatever reasons God had for election of some and passing by others had nothing to do with some arbitrary game. No Reformed believer believes that.

I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone of my persuasion believes that anyone who believes the gospel will not be saved. "Who so ever will" is the cry of the Reformed and non Reformed evangelical as well.

Once again - I have never said that Christ did not die for the sins of the entire world.

You are starting to jump to conclusions about what I believe because of some erroneous preconceived notions about election and predestination. If you want to know what I believe - just ask.

Jesus and Paul said otherwise.

I have to take a break from this. It is getting very tedious. That is especially true since you are now making assumptions about what I believe. You are in error about some things that Calvinists believe and teach as well.

brotherjerry said: ↑
So if God is just and God cannot lie. When the Bible says that Christ died for all, then He must have died for all and not some.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates HIs own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for the sinners..it does not say for some sinners, or a few sinners...it just says sinners.
1 Corinthians 15:3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

You say this in defence, yet do not consider the context, see you include all the world here the 'us', yet Paul is writing to the church and Paul is not writing to the world. Paul's audience for whom Paul writes scripture is to edify and build up the church alone which does include those called of Christ who are of His elect who will be saved and those who are saved. None of those scriptures are for natural man of the world.

You put up these as evidence, here is another much more clear, yet still the same.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us so that whether we are still alive or are dead [at Christ’s appearing], we might live together with Him and share His life.

This mystery Paul describes as Christ dying for His church to bring them and present them to God perfected and not for the world.
Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Ephesians 5:27
That He might present the church to Himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such things [that she might be holy and faultless].

Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,

Ephesians 5:32
This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
One only has to look at the context to understand 1 Cor 2:14. It isn't about the natural man not understanding the gospel message. In v.6 Paul tells them that he is bringing a message to the mature, an obvious reference to advanced doctrines; not the gospel message. His audience are already saved anyway. And v.10 notes the "deep things of God", another obvious reference to advanced doctrines.

A serious error your holding to there.
Equating the natural, non spiritual in v14 man, to be saved, would require them to be a spiritually minded man.

No, it does not "require" an unbeliever to be spiritually minded. The gospel message is about the free gift of eternal life received on the basis of believing in Jesus Christ for it. That does NOT require a spiritual mind to understand.

In fact, the evidence is overwhelming that unbelievers can understand the gospel message, all the while rejecting it.

v12, is NOT just for better learners, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers born of God. And it is that same PERSON off the Holy Spirit that leads guides and teaches His people into all truth, just as Jesus said, and as this verse teaches.

I've never said otherwise.

You are in opposition to the Holy Spirit here.

You couldn't be more in error with that off the wall comment.

Claiming that the saved Christian believer you teach and believe has not received the Holy Spirit.
Serious error.

You've grossly misunderstand what I've posted. EVERY believer HAS received the Holy Spirit. I never said otherwise.

It's real difficult to have a discussion with someone who so greatly misunderstands (or distorts) what I post.