Isaiah55:6
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To a false convert yes it's a license to sin. But someone who is born again, they will desire to glorify God. Misrepresenting Calvinism.
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This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!
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Isaiah55:6
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I define free will as we have the ability to make choices. However in our sinful nature before we are regenerated we will always choose sin. We cannot understand spiritual things.
*that is just a quick super cut down version as I have a 2 and 4 yr old running around me.
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Marvin Knox
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Being made alive means giving life to someone who was dead. Or, alternately, it means creating something new which contains life.
I'm not ignoring anything as you charge. I am addressing your lack of logic in this matter in a direct and courteous manner.
Note the two words that I highlighted in your post above. They are not the same thing. You switch from one word to the other as if they were the same thing. You are wrong.
Relation and equation are on the same thing. I am related to my mother. I should not be equated by you to my mother. While it is true that I would not be sitting here without the existence of my Mother. We are not the same thing.
Your explanation that they are "equated" is simply not logically true. The fact that they are mentioned "in the same breath", as you say, has nothing to do with them being equated or not.
Making one alive does not "equate" to salvation.
One is justified and born again by believing and receiving the Word of God (the gospel). Until they do that they are headed for Hell.
For example - I know that you do not believe in election as do I. You disagree with me on that. So be it. I can live with that.
But what I could not live with is your "equating" my being elected to my being saved. This is done quite often here in the forum by those opposing so called Calvinism. They are wrong in doing so. The two words and concepts are "related". But they are not the same. I was, as I see it, elected from before the foundation of the world. But I was not saved until I accepted Christ and was justified in the presence of God because of that faith.
Most Calvinists would be quick to point out that God would not likely give spiritual life to someone who will not eventually be saved. I agree with that notion.
Most pelagians and semi-pelagians on the other hand would take exception to that - believing, as they apparently do, that fallen man is either spiritually alive in the first place or that God gives prevenient grace to all sinners thereby allowing them to understand and respond to the gospel in all cases. (Jesus and Paul said otherwise as I read it.)
Let me give you an admittedly totally off the wall example of the type of illogical reasoning you are employing.
John gave me the last ration of food on the island we were stranded on - thus allowing me to live until I was saved. (By grace I was saved.)
You apparently believe that it is good logic to "equate" being saved to a box of food rations. I do not. The box of rations played such a pivotal part in my being saved that I ecstatically acknowledged John's grace in the telling of the story of my being saved. But my being saved doesn't "equate" to a box of food rations. I would not have lived until being saved without the food. But much more went into my delivery than that box of food.
You are saying (erroneously) that being regenerated "equates" to being saved. You are simply wrong in your logic. Being regenerated played such a pivotal in the salvation process that it caused Paul to give credit where credit is due (God's grace in regeneration). Without that totally unmerited act of grace we could not have even understood the gospel let alone respond to it favorably.
But one is not "saved" by being regenerated. One is justified and allowed to come into God's presence only because of faith not regeneration. They are not the same theological concept - as you should and probably do know.
Dead men cannot understand the gospel rightly - let alone respond in a God pleasing manner without being first made alive. Jesus and Paul both tell us that.
As to whether people who are made alive can remain in that state without eventually being saved - the Bible tells us that all men, including the reprobate, will be made alive and face God directly some day. Not all will be saved.
But - more directly related to what you are asking - the scriptures say that God opened Lydia's heart to receive the gospel. But Lydia was not saved until receiving the gospel. The sentence structure definitely indicates a sequential series of events. God acted so that she could respond to the gospel. She heard the gospel. She responded to the gospel and was saved.
Beyond what I have been given - I cannot go in understanding things in the spiritual realm.
Please note --- Lest we go too far off the original subject. You have said originally that, since salvation comes "through faith", it follows that regeneration comes "through faith" since ---- as you erroneously argue --- Paul "equates" being saved with regeneration.
That is the point of all this back and forth - lest anyone miss the point.
The idea that regeneration comes through faith stands and falls on the concept that salvation and regeneration are the same thing.
They are not the same. Therefore you premise is flawed from the jump.
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FreeGrace2
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But God created man with a conscience with which to know right from wrong (Rom 2). So unsaved, unregenerate man CAN be moral even when unsaved.
And both Cornelius and Lydia worshiped God before they came to faith in Christ and were saved. So they weren't "wild sinners" in any sense.
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FreeGrace2
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OK. Is one saved when one is regenerated?
I never said the "same thing". I said they were equated by Paul. By that, I mean they go together. Can you have one without the other?
Why is it "not logical"??
Do they go together or not?
Please note in Eph 1:4 that those who were chosen are in the group called 'believers'. I know that because Paul defined who the "us" are from 1:4 in 1:19.
When were you regenerated?
That sounds like regeneration can be quite some time before one comes to faith. Do you agree with that? That one can be regenerated way before they believe? I don't.
Most pelagians and semi-pelagians on the other hand would take exception to that - believing, as they apparently do, that fallen man is either spiritually alive in the first place or that God gives prevenient grace to all sinners thereby allowing them to understand and respond to the gospel in all cases. (Jesus and Paul said otherwise as I read it.)
I don't pay any attention to the "pelicans")) and their beliefs. Fallen man is not spiritually alive. But the facts are clear; unbelievers can and do understand the gospel. Even though rejecting it.
Yes, quite off the wall. You were probably saved by boat.
No, I don't think that is good logic. Paul spoke of being made alive, which isn't even close to "allowing me to live". To be made alive is far different than to stay alive. I thought that would be obvious. And I think Paul added the phrase in the parenthesis to explain, clarify, or indicate what he meant by being made alive. I find nothing in Scripture to suggest that they don't go together.
Well, the rations kept you alive (you were already alive in the first place). So in that sense, the rations saved you from dying. And the boat (which you forgot to note) saved you from having to stay on the island.
Sure, the pilot of the boat, and the boat.
Unless there is Scripture to indicate that one can be regenerated without being saved, or saved without being regenerated, my logic is SOLID.
I've seen no verses about God's grace in regeneration. I do see verses about God's grace in salvation.
I believe God's creation of the conscience in mankind is an act of grace, whereby mankind can know right from wrong.
I never said that. I said they go together. That's what I mean by being equated. They cannot be separated.
I'm well aware of the differences. And the fact that they always go together.
That is absolutely not true. Jesus Himself refuted that idea in Jn 5:24 where He said that "the dead will hear…and live". Note the order. It's not the ones "made alive" that will hear, but the DEAD.
Please cite the verses where they told us that. I don't believe they did say that.
That's not being "made alive" at all. Quite different. In fact, all souls are eternal already. We know that because at death our souls leave our dead bodies and our souls remain conscious for eternity.
Unless one can show that opening a heart is regeneration, one does not have a point.
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Marvin Knox
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this is my last post on this subject. You are up to your old shameful tricks again.
Here is the logic you were presenting and why it is wrong.
You say that we are saved through faith. I totally agree with that statement. The scriptures say as much.
You say that, if regeneration is the same as being saved, then regeneration is through faith as well. I totally agree with that statement. It is absolutely logical to say that.
You then say that, therefore, regeneration is through faith.
HOWEVER
Regeneration and being saved are not the same thing.
THEREFORE
You cannot logically make the connection that regeneration is through faith as you have tried to do with this passage.
NOW
You are trying to change things by saying that you did not say that regeneration and salvation are the same. You now say that you said that they merely "go together".
Webster defines equate as "to say or think that (two things) are equal or the same".
Go together, on the other hand, means to "regularly exist at the same time, or often be found in the same place".
Example: If two or more things go together, they frequently exist together.
"Equate" and "go together" are not the same thing- just as regeneration and being saved are not the same thing.
I am well aware of your methods and I find them dishonest.
Others may read these posts haphazardly and be taken in by your methods.
I don't have any more time for them.
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All I saw was questions not being answered in a way that actually addressed the earlier question.
But basically if salvation and regeneration are two separate things, do they have the same causation? Meaning does whatever causes one to be saved, also case regeneration? Because something can be equal, and not be the same thing...a pound of lead is equal to a pound of feathers. Going together implies a link which I believe is what FG was trying to get to, is there a link between the two so that one causes the other, or is there a third situation here that causes both?
But basically if salvation and regeneration are two separate things, do they have the same causation? Meaning does whatever causes one to be saved, also case regeneration? Because something can be equal, and not be the same thing...a pound of lead is equal to a pound of feathers. Going together implies a link which I believe is what FG was trying to get to, is there a link between the two so that one causes the other, or is there a third situation here that causes both?
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Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
All things were created through Him and for Him, even those new creations in Christ.
Colossians 1
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
Notice v21 - 22 show Christ died for believers to have eternal life, not unbelievers who remain unreconciled to God. The ones Christ has reconciled to God by His death in the body of His flesh are the ones He chose to show mercy to save them.
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Notice v23, IF indeed you continue in the faith. that is beware lest an evil heart of unbelief be in you as Hebrews 3 states.
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Colossians 1:23 == Hebrews 3:12 - 14
Some will say we don't have to endure in faith all the way to our physical death, but here is evidence we do, otherwise we are not ever been regenerated, that is born of God. Not all brethren are true or have faith, some are false brethren, false workers. Not all are the good seed planted by the Son of Man. Some are seeds planted by the devil in the church.
Galatians 2:4
And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
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Salvation is the sum total of all that God does for a sinner to be fit for Heaven. Regeneration -- the New Birth -- is the first essential component of salvation, but salvation includes many other things as well (Tit 3:4-8). As you will note the "causation" is ultimately the grace of God, which includes the kindness,the love, and the mercy of God:
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
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Isaiah55:6
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Yes, even in our depraved state we can be moral. Even atheists have morals. But even the good and moral things we do in the unregenerate state are filthy rags before God because they are done without faith.
you mentioned this before and it did catch my interest but when I asked where I can find this you never gave it to me.
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Isaiah
Acts 10:1-2 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Hope that helps.
Acts 10:1-2 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Hope that helps.
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Isaiah55:6
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Marvin Knox
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There is a link between salvation and regeneration. But they are not the same thing.
Salvation includes regeneration as a necessary component. Regeneration does not include salvation - even though salvation is the logical conclusion of the series of events of which regeneration is one.
Salvation is by grace and one of it's components - regeneration - is also by grace. But that doesn't make them the same thing.
The point we were arguing is whether, because salvation is "through faith", regeneration must be "through faith" as well.
Of course if they were the same thing (equated) they would both be "through faith" logically. But they are not the same.
From my point of view - it doesn't matter if one considers regeneration as a kind of process or an instantaneous spark of some kind. Nor does it matter if they even use the term regeneration for the effectual call of God unto salvation. What matters to me is that people agree that faith is authored by God (as it clearly says) and that He brings it about through a mysterious act of grace such as with the examples of Lydia or Peter in the scriptures as well as the teaching of Jesus to Nicodemus concerning the wind and birth.
The problem is that - since God does not do that for every man who ever lives - there is an element of divine election unto salvation that comes into play.
People simply don't seem to be able to stomach the idea that God does something for one sinner that He does not do for another sinner. This - in spite of the fact that neither sinner deserves special grace in the first place.
This objection amounts to disagreeing with what the scriptures clearly teach - namely that it is by grace (unmerited favor) that we are saved.
People give lip service to the concept that salvation is by unmerited grace because they can not get away from it in the scriptures. And yet they bristle when we teach exactly that.
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Good to mention the wind of the Holy Spirit who blows where He wishes.
If say man were to be the primary agent in believing in Christ, then the Holy Spirit would be blowing where the man willed Him to blow.
But Christ says we see the effects of the wind of the Holy Spirit but we do not know whence He comes or where He goes, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit of God.
If say man were to be the primary agent in believing in Christ, then the Holy Spirit would be blowing where the man willed Him to blow.
But Christ says we see the effects of the wind of the Holy Spirit but we do not know whence He comes or where He goes, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit of God.
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FreeGrace2
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I have not said that. I have pointed out that since they occur at the same time, and faith precedes salvation, faith also precedes regeneration.
I've only pointed the obvious. Salvation and regeration occur together.
Oh, come on. I am clarifying my earlier statements, since you've shown a misunderstanding of them. Salvation and regneration occur together. Period. That is the point. Since they do, both are preceded by faith. Period. That is the point.
And you've yet to prove that regeneration occurs before faith, which is one of the foundational pins upon which Calvinism rests.
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FreeGrace2
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The point is that unbelievers (the unregenerate) can and do know right from wrong. And they can and do understand the gospel message.
Cornelius is in Acts 10 and Lydia is in Acts 16.
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FreeGrace2
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I have clarified my points.
This has not been proven from Scripture.
I've shown that the point is that they occur together, proving that regeneration is preceded by faith.
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Isaiah55:6
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There are many verses and you've been showed them many times. You just don't want to believe what they say so you just cast them aside and then claim again no one can show you scripture. We keep going around and around in circles. Let's take a different approach; regeneration precedes salvation is arrived at systematically also. This is where irresistible grace comes in.
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
* if all that the father gives to Jesus 'will come'. And not every human comes to him. That would logically mean the father did not give all humans to Jesus but only the elect. It's so simple.
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