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Non-Trinitarianism is unscriptural

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Der Alte

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* * * And how about the 'let us' part of creation. Five days the Bible states that 'God created..........". Then, ONLY one the SIXTH day are we offered, "Let US create..............". Why is that? What is the SIGNIFICANCE of offering that 'God created.........." for five days, then, out of the blue, "Let US create............". Surely this wasn't a translation error? So it MUST have significance. Since ALL scripture is offered for our edification, what are we to GAIN in understanding from this?
Blessings,
MEC

8. R. Samuel b. Nahman said in R. Jonathan's name: When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID: LET us MAKE MAN, etc., he said: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics?'(1) 'Write,' replied He; 'whoever wishes to err may err.’
(1) For maintaining a plurality of gods.

R. Simlai said: Wherever you find a point [apparently] supporting the heretics, you find the refutation at its side. They asked him again: 'What is meant by, AND GOD SAID: LET us MAKE MAN?' 'Read what follows,' replied he: 'not, "And gods created (wa-yibre'u) man" is written here, but "And God created wa-yibra" (Gen. I, 27). When they went out his disciples said to him : ' Them you have dismissed with a mere makeshift, but how will you answer us?'

Midrash Rabbah Genesis I Translated Into English With Notes, Glossary And Indices Under The Editorship Of Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman, B.A., Ph.D.
 
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Grafted In

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No those that are in Christ are not one with Him. Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:16, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but "highly exalted Him and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 65:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 65:23] to the glory of God the Father.

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 65:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.
In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:


When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”
See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.


“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article

I made this point about Philippians chapter 2 earlier in this thread, but with SO much dialogue going on perhaps it was overlooked. I believe that He was an equal "person" of the trinity prior to volunteering to go to earth as a man, and that for that 33.5 years was just like us in that He was human but unlike other humans during His time here, was filled with The Holy Ghost. He humbled Himself by laying aside His position in the trinity and became flesh filled with the Holy Spirit. For me that explains His claim that The Father was greater than He and was in all ways obedient to The Father.
After His Resurrection and returning to The Father He again picked up what He had so willingly laid aside....His position in the Trinity.
There's just a couple of things about my opinion, that being, since He was/is the word of God, who spoke when He was baptized? This "theory" helps me understand why, if He was truly God in every respect that He prayed fervently to The Father, particularly in the garden before His arrest.

I'm curious if there are others that suspect that Jesus was not made with an egg from Mary. Afterall, Adam and Eve were fully human though were
Not conceived in a fallopian tube yet we consider them to be fully human. We were all concieved in a fallopian tube, but Scripture tells us Jesus was concieved in Mary's womb. Furthermore having God place an embryo in Mary's womb would explain Jesus not having the sin nature we have. And Adam and Eve unfortunately aquired.
 
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Grafted In

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As for those who question what Jesus was prior to His earthly work, I believe that, just like The Father and The Holy Ghost, He was purely a spiritual being. I fact I think the fact that He is referred to as The Son is simply because he, like the first Adam, was flesh and blood...that his true persona was I person of the trinity, fully God in every way.
 
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Wgw

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And if Christ WERE God, as defined in 'trinity', isn't it strange that He prays, not to the NAME of the Father, but to GOD? You know, like, "My God, my God, why hath THOU forsaken ME?"

Once again, you make an argument which simply ignores the actual position of Trinitarians.

It must be understood this is a reference to Psalm 22:1; by quoting that Psalm, the impassible Lord empties himself in the Passion and takes onto himself our abandonment as a result of our sin, which is not the abandonment of himself but of fallen humanity. This has the effect of facilitating our salvation and the redemption of the human nature, its restoration from corruption. Hence "It is finished."

Whereas the argument you advocate suggests a malignant God, the "ultimate child abuser" detested by atheists, who abandons his only begotten son unto suffering and torment. Such an abandonment by neccessity violates your belief, and my belief, that God does not change; abandonment implies a change, it is an inherently transitory condition from a state of grace to a state of indifference or rejection. Thus whereas it does work to regard abandonment as the result of humans turning their back on God and then complaining according to human ignorance and childishness of abandonment, we cannot say that our Lord, who knew better and was free of sin, could be abandoned Himself without violating the principle of divine immutability, which is why the only logical explanation relates to this resulting from taking fallen humanity into Himself for the purposes of redemption on the Cross.
 
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civilwarbuff

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The words of Paul still ring true...
1Co 2:14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.
 
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Wgw

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It's kind of amusing, the main REASON that the Jews refuse to accept Christ as Savior is the IDEA that He is God. It would seem that they were JUST as confused as to the MEANING of 'Son' as those that profess 'trinity'. They TOO believed that to be 'Son' was to be of the SAME essence as God. Yet they assumed this without any evidence other than their OWN interpretation.

That is demonstrably false according to the fact that if what you said was true, most Jews would have accepted Christ.

The Crucifixion, the continued resistance to Christ in Rabinnical and Karaite Judaism, in spite of the well known existence of non-Trinitarian denominations, all show this point to be gravely erroneous.
 
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Butch5

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Well the first shows the reference to the Holy Spirit and the 2nd is God saying the word US who then is he referring but for his son. The first reference to the 3 parts of the God head.

I don't see how that follows. What is a God head?
 
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Butch5

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Here is how it proves the Trinity (sorry unable to get question marks formatted properly) :

Is the Father God and is He included YES
Is the Son God and is He also included YES
Is the Holy Spirit included YES
Therefore the Holy Spirit is God
Therefore there are three Divine Persons
Therefore the *Name* implied is *God*.

The passage doesn't say anything about God. It says baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
 
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Berean777

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As for those who question what Jesus was prior to His earthly work, I believe that, just like The Father and The Holy Ghost, He was purely a spiritual being. I fact I think the fact that He is referred to as The Son is simply because he, like the first Adam, was flesh and blood...that his true persona was I person of the trinity, fully God in every way.

He is of one in the same substance as the Father. The Nicene Creed states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit has also his unique personal role.

There is one Godbeing in contrast to many human beings.

Even before the incarnatiom in human flesh (blood), the Son who is visible Yahweh appeared to many prophets of Old as the Angel of of Yahweh's presence. Prophet Daniel called him the Son of Man. So we have a distinction of the same infinite Godbeing between the invisible Father and His Holy Spirit and the visible Son.

The person of visible Yahweh in his creation where it be as the Angel of Yahweh's presence or in the servant form as Jesus of Nazareth is still identified as the preeminent Son before all creation as the uncreated Son, implying Yahweh Godbeing is present simultaneously in both realms with a different role/persona yet the one in the same Godbeing/substance. That is why visible Yahweh is called Emmanuel meaning Yahweh is with us.

That is why the manifestation of the Living Word who is of the one indivisible Holy Holy Holy Spirit is also of the one in the same Spirit who is God (John 4:24). So the one infinite Spirit within him has three distinct persona's / roles and these three is the one God.

For a human being to have three persona's would render that finite person with a multiple personality disorder which some humans are diagnosed with. The one infinite Spirit of the Godbeing/substance has done this within him to define himself as a relationship between a loving Father and a loving Son whilst the one Spirit testifies or narrates this epic love story between the two as the third personality in the trinity of persona's. Why God does this defines why he is called Love and how he does this is a mystery that he has not revealed.

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

Some project this verse to encompass the whole enterprise of God from the old testament to the New Testament and this would essentially also indicate a preincarnation presence of the Living Word as the Angel of Yahweh's presence right to the man Jesus of Nazareth. Prophet Daniel called him the Son of Man before incarnation and after incarnation he was called the Son of God and this was to also adopt us into his heavenly family, being joined to the epic love story.
That is why Jesus would say you are my mother, brothers and sisters.
 
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cgaviria

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I have already. What something is. A child is of the same substance as it's father. Whatever the Father is, His Son is.

Your definition is ambiguous. I'm asking you, if a can, define what you mean by substance. For example, I would define "of the same substance" as, just as the Father was Creator, so was Jesus Creator.
 
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Berean777

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*cough* filioque controversy *cough cough*

Yeh I know.

Why I support my Catholic brothers and sisters on this one is that in scripture it highlights the Father sending the Spirit and also the Son sending the Spirit. In scripture the apostles also speak of the faithful having Christ's Spirit which indicates that it proceeds from the Son also. I feel the Catholics may be right after all.

Since the decision for the Spirit to be sent must have been an agreed decision between the Father and the Son and so in that respect the Son was involved with the Father in the decision making as well. This would be plausible since the Son was glorified and matters given into his hands then he had to be part of that decision making and have equal say with the Father.

The Spirit must have also proceeded from the Son as he is now sitting on the right side of the Father on the throne of the Almighty as the commander and chief.
 
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Butch5

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Your definition is ambiguous. I'm asking you, if a can, define what you mean by substance. For example, I would define "of the same substance" as, just as the Father was Creator, so was Jesus Creator.

That's not what substance means. We don't know what Father is made of. Whatever that is the Son is the same thing. I am human, my child is human. I am no more or no less human than my child. We are equally human.
 
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cgaviria

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Yeh I know.

Why I support my Catholic brothers and sisters on this one is that in scripture it highlights the Father sending the Spirit and also the Son sending the Spirit. In scripture the apostles also speak of the faithful having Christ's Spirit which indicates that it proceeds from the Son also. I feel the Catholics may be right after all.

Since the decision for the Spirit to be sent must have been an agreed decision between the Father and the Son and so in that respect the Son was involved with the Father in the decision making as well. This would be plausible since the Son was glorified and matters given into his hands then he had to be part of that decision making and have equal say with the Father.

The Spirit must have also proceeded from the Son as he is now sitting on the right side of the Father on the throne of the Almighty as the commander and chief.

The Son received the Spirit that was sent forth from the Father, and then the apostles received the Spirit that was sent to them by the Son, and then everyone else received the Spirit as it was passed along by the apostles and then those that received it from them. I believe it to be a spiritual genealogy as it is passed down from person to person that has it, and each person that receives it is considered the fruit of the person that imparted it.
 
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Berean777

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I have already. What something is. A child is of the same substance as it's father. Whatever the Father is, His Son is.

Substance is the makeup wether it be physical or spiritual. What makes something what it is.

In PHILOSOPHY it means
the essential nature underlying phenomena.


So what ever the Father is the Son is also.

For example in terms of nature human beings have the same makeup and therefore have the same nature.

When you consider the nature of God this becomes a singularity where there is one Godbeing and so what he is must the Father and the Son also be. So the Father and the Son have to be the one in the same Godbeing who is one, yet within that being exists a taxonomy of three persona's which are not physical quantitues that make three persons rather they are self existing as characters within the one Godbeing and therefore must be coeternal and coequal as they are one in the same substance who is the infinite Godbeing.

If a human being were to have three personalities existing simultaneously then it would be impossible, yet God is just that, he exists as three personalities and not three separate substances/Spirits/beings.

Some people have been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder but even so they can only play one character at any one time, whereas God plays all three simultaneously.
 
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