Non-Trinitarianism is unscriptural

[cgaviria]

That wasn't the point of the post. Whatever God is the Son is. That was the point of the post. The argument that brought about the Nicene creed was whether or not Jesus was a created being or not. The Arians argued that He was, the orthodox Christians argued that He was not, but rather was begotten. That's why it is said that He is the say substance/essence/ nature, take your pick as the Father. The point is that whatever the Father is, the Son is also. This is how the creed opens.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

You may disagree with the creed but that is the point being made.

To be honest bud I would stick to basing your theology on scripture only and discard the use of the word "substance". Its no where in actual scripture. I really do detest that document because I strongly believe it leads many astray on a very important topic on how God made things. If you're interested, I have a post I created a couple days ago covering this topic extensively and where I have plenty of scriptures backing up what I have to say. Let me know if you want the link and I can give it to you.

 

[cgaviria]

Berean777,

Let me apologize for my earlier post. I shouldn't have been sarcastic.

It's good that you're trying to be lighthearted in this discussion that goes easily get heated.

 

[Berean777]

You've got it wrong bud. There is only ONE God, the Father. It is not three, it is ONE. There is no other like him. And from him stems a family, first of which is his "only child" Jesus Christ, who spoke all things into existence,

but to us there is one God the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him. (I Corinthians 8:6 [ABP])

Both the Father and the Son are not exactly the same. The son is an "image" of the Father. An image is lesser than the thing it reflects, therefore they are not literally coequal. Why do you think Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I"? He is in fact affirming he is lesser than the Father.

Jesus Christ is made God by the Father because he has chosen him to be the very highest of all his creation.

And you're taking my spiritual genealogy statement way off on a tangent. What I mean LITERALLY by spiritual genealogy is that you can only receive the Holy Spirit by someone else that has it. It is imparted by the laying of hands although it can be imparted without intention as is clear in a passage in Acts. Either way, it is always imparted by someone that has it. And in that is created a spiritual genealogy because now you are considered their spiritual child.

I feel just as I thought we were getting somewhere, yet we have taken another two steps backwards.

No one wills the Spirit of God and this is yet another pentecostal movement card that your handing down to us.

The Lord is sovereign and chooses who he will choose regardless of whether Peter thought in his time that he had it or not and God proved him that it was not Peter's sovereign choice to lay hands but the sovereign will of the Lord to give his Spirit to who he desires and wishes to.

So how your portraying the giving of the Holy Ghost is contrary to scripture. Philip was sent to the eunuch and after being baptised the Holy Ghost came upon that man. Now whose will was it that philip be transported by the chariots of fire to the place where the eunuch was. It is God's timing and will and not man's. For as it is written many are called by men yet few are chosen by Christ.

 

[Butch5]

If you remove the covenant with Abraham, Issac is no one special....He is not even Abraham's 1st born son. So Issac is only special within the framework (specific relationship) of the covenant. That is the correct definition of monogenes in this context.


There is only one Son of God....and He is "the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind". He is unique, there are no others like Him. That is the correct definition of monogenes in this context.

I wasn't disagreeing with the definition, just questioning the source. You said to look at those two posts for the correct definition of the word. My point was, what made that the correct definition? What I was getting at is that just because a lexicon gives a definition that doesn't mean that's what the word means. Lexicons also define olam and aionios as eternal and they can't possibly mean that.

 

[Butch5]

To be honest bud I would stick to basing your theology on scripture only and discard the use of the word "substance". Its no where in actual scripture. I really do detest that document because I strongly believe it leads many astray on a very important topic on how God made things. If you're interested, I have a post I created a couple days ago covering this topic extensively and where I have plenty of scriptures backing up what I have to say. Let me know if you want the link and I can give it to you.

You did link it. I read it the other day. In it you said the Father created the world and the water before the Word spoke. What is your basis for changing elohim from meaning the Father to the Son?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I wasn't disagreeing with the definition, just questioning the source. You said to look at those two posts for the correct definition of the word. My point was, what made that the correct definition? What I was getting at is that just because a lexicon gives a definition that doesn't mean that's what the word means. Lexicons also define olam and aionios as eternal and they can't possibly mean that.

Do you have a different definition?....and the source? I open to correction if wrong. Like I said, I don't read Greek and have to depend on interpretation. However, post #82 came up with the same definition from what seemed a different source so I do have confidence in mine.

 

[Butch5]

It's good that you're trying to be lighthearted in this discussion that goes easily get heated.

They can surely get heated.

 

[Berean777]

To be honest bud I would stick to basing your theology on scripture only and discard the use of the word "substance". Its no where in actual scripture. I really do detest that document because I strongly believe it leads many astray on a very important topic on how God made things. If you're interested, I have a post I created a couple days ago covering this topic extensively and where I have plenty of scriptures backing up what I have to say. Let me know if you want the link and I can give it to you.

How could you say that you detest the Nicene Creed. The fathers that painstakingly put it together were extensions of the 1st century apostles. Unless offcourse your thoughts are that they were somehow decieved and/ or fraudsters which I would sincerely think you would be ill advised if you believed them to be decieved and/or fraudsters.

 

[Wgw]

You've got it wrong bud. There is only ONE God, the Father.

Once again, we see the Trinitarian position misrepresented as Tritheism.

Earlier in this thread, non-Trinitarians were advocating what implicitly amounted to polytheism; now we are back to doctrinaire unitarian Monarchism.

And from him stems a family, first of which is his "only child" Jesus Christ, who spoke all things into existence,

but to us there is one God the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him. (I Corinthians 8:6 [ABP])

Both the Father and the Son are not exactly the same. The son is an "image" of the Father. An image is lesser than the thing it reflects, therefore they are not literally coequal. Why do you think Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I"? He is in fact affirming he is lesser than the Father.

Jesus Christ is made God by the Father because he has chosen him to be the very highest of all his creation.

Jesus Christ cannot have been made, because by Him all things were made (John 1:3). The Trinitarians in this thread have repeatedly disavowed the error wrongly attributed to us that we regard the three prosopa as being equal according to personal identity. The father is greater than the son by virtue of the son having been begotten, as opposed to being a creature. There is a distinction between being only begotten and created, or even being begotten and created.

What I mean LITERALLY by spiritual genealogy is that you can only receive the Holy Spirit by someone else that has it. It is imparted by the laying of hands although it can be imparted without intention as is clear in a passage in Acts. Either way, it is always imparted by someone that has it. And in that is created a spiritual genealogy because now you are considered their spiritual child.

The problem with your confusion of chrismation with chirothesia is that by this definition, only clergy should have received the Spirit for a great many centuries, and indeed it would be difficult to see a case where by your standards a valid transmission would exist. It is also deeply offensive to Christians who believe they have acquired the Spirit in various ways to have someone who disavows such an acquisition attempt to argue otherwise.

 

[Butch5]

Do you have a different definition?....and the source? I open to correction if wrong. Like I said, I don't read Greek and have to depend on interpretation.

No, I wasn't disagreeing with the definition. For the most part I do think BDAG is a good source. My concern is that sometimes one's bias gets into their translation or in the case of Lexicons the lexicon. I think the words olam and aionios are good examples of how translators have let their theological beliefs drive their interpretation of passages using these terms and in lexicons also.

 

[cgaviria]

I feel just as I thought we were getting somewhere, yet we have taken another two steps backwards.

No one wills the Spirit of God and this is yet another pentecostal movement card that your handing down to us.

The Lord is sovereign and chooses who he will choose regardless of whether Peter thought in his time that he had it or not and God proved him that it was not Peter's sovereign choice to lay hands but the sovereign will of the Lord to give his Spirit to who he desires and wishes to.

So how your portraying the giving of the Holy Ghost is contrary to scripture. Philip was sent to the eunuch and after being baptised the Holy Ghost came upon that man. Now whose will was it that philip be transported by the chariots of fire to the place where the eunuch was. It is God's timing and will and not man's. For as it is written many are called by men yet few are chosen by Christ.

You're correct. It may or may not be imparted, it is ultimately God's choice, which is why we must humble ourselves and repent and pray that he may have mercy and choose to impart his Spirit upon us. Yet in this, God may indirectly impart it through his people that have it as is evident in the laying of hands. Sometimes it was also imparted WITHOUT INTENTION, as we can see in Acts it was given to the Gentiles too without the apostles intending it, so therefore here it was done by the direct choice of God.

 

[cgaviria]

You did link it. I read it the other day. In it you said the Father created the world and the water before the Word spoke. What is your basis for changing elohim from meaning the Father to the Son?

Because of the speech. In the speech, such as "let there be light", is where the Son then began speaking things into existence upon what the Father had already established before Jesus began speaking. Word means "speech, talking", which is the Greek word, "logos". All other usages in scripture refer to talking. Jesus is in fact the "speech of God", because in the Genesis account, he is the actual speech of "let there be light", that brought forth into existence all things uttered by the speech.

 

[Der Alte]

We can use that text to prove the Trinity in conjunction with other texts like John 1:1-14 and so on. An exegetical view regards it as proof, albeit not the sole proof; if read either in the manner you propose or in a manner where it alone supports the Trinity one would engage in eisegesis.

Here are a few more verses.
There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה /ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

 

[Butch5]

Because of the speech. In the speech, such as "let there be light", is where the Son then began speaking things into existence upon what the Father had already established before Jesus began speaking. Word means "speech, talking", which is the Greek word, "logos". All other usages in scripture refer to talking. Jesus is in fact the "speech of God", because in the Genesis account, he is the actual speech of "let there be light", that brought forth into existence all things uttered by the speech.

Are you saying that Jesus is sound waves?

 

[Wgw]

Here are a few more verses.
There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה /ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

Thank you for this typically excellent post.

My entire thesis in this thread is that in light of these verses, one cannot exegetically argue against the Trinity without deprecating these passages.

Thus far however no one has even managed to argue against John 1:1! I am not a fan of eisegesis and I do not think it would be eisegetical to say, in light of the above, that John 1:1 is specifically emblemetic of the inability of non-Trinitarian position to reconcile their views with sacred scripture.

 

[cgaviria]

Are you saying that Jesus is sound waves?

I am saying that Jesus SPOKE. Which goes in accordance with the John 1:1 scripture, that Jesus is SPEECH. He spoke everything into existence.

 

[Wgw]

I am saying that Jesus SPOKE. Which goes in accordance with the John 1:1 scripture, that Jesus is SPEECH. He spoke everything into existence.

Except speech per se cannot become incarnate or be a divine Son as per John 1:1-14. What is more, speech cannot ontologically be God ("and the Word was God").

 

[Butch5]

I am saying that Jesus SPOKE. Which goes in accordance with the John 1:1 scripture, that Jesus is SPEECH. He spoke everything into existence.

Speech is sound waves. Sound waves don't speak. If Jesus spoke He is a being. If that is what you believe I go back to be my question what is the basis for your change in who elohim refers to. You said that it was the Father who created the world and the water. What is the basis for this claim?

 

[cgaviria]

Except speech per se cannot become incarnate or be a divine Son as per John 1:1-14. What is more, speech cannot ontologically be God ("and the Word was God").

Obviously, the scripture reference isn't saying literal words are God. It is spiritually saying that Jesus Christ is the speech of God that brought forth everything into existence.

 

[Butch5]

Except speech per se cannot become incarnate or be a divine Son as per John 1:1-14. What is more, speech cannot ontologically be God ("and the Word was God").

You said you define the Trinity per the Nicene creed. How do you define the Shema in light of the Nicene creed?