Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Riberra]

[The Romans 11:26-31 passage cannot be used as a future fulfillment, because it began about 2,000 years ago, when the New Blood Covenant of Christ was finished on the day of the Cross. During the first century, both Jews and Gentiles were grafted together into the Olive Tree of the New Covenant, which is now in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. It continues to this day as thousands in Israel and around the world continue to accept Christ and become part of the New Covenant.

It began about 2,000 years ago, it is still in action now and is also future UNTIL the Return of Jesus AFTER the Tribulation (The Parousia).

The problem with the passages from Zechariah is that they produce conflict with the parable of the virgins by saying they do not have to be ready until Christ returns. As of yet, I have not figured out a way to eliminate this conflict in scripture.

The foolish virgins are those in the Church who will fall for the False Messiah ...who the Scriptures say will arrive on the world scene before the Return of Jesus.

Will they be given a second chance?

Since the middle wall of separation has been torn down, does this second chance include all peoples or only the Jews?

I don't think that any of these verses talk about a second chance.

Paul started the passage with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal and a remnant of 7,000 who would not. He ends the passage in the same way.

In the future there will be Jews and Gentiles that will bow to the Antichrist by taking the mark and worshipping the AC and his image and those who will not.There will be a remnant in the Nations around the World who will have refused to bow to AC.

-Edited to fix a quote-

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 4035:

The "door" found in the sheep and goat judgment is the fact that it closes the door on the 1,000 year carnal kingdom by showing the judgment occurs at His Second Coming, as is found in Revelation 11:18.

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

BABerean2 said in post 4035:

The "door" found in the sheep and goat judgment is the fact that it closes the door on the 1,000 year carnal kingdom by showing the judgment occurs at His Second Coming, as is found in Revelation 11:18.

Regarding Revelation 11:18, note that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

*******

BABerean2 said in post 4040:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(The Greek word "houto" means "in this manner", which refers back to how they may be grafted back into the Olive Tree in verse 23. Some people change the word "so", to the word "then" in an attempt to make this a future event.)

Note that in Romans 11:26, the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect, genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Romans 11:26, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" refers to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will get saved when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6).

BABerean2 said in post 4040:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)

That's right.

For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

BABerean2 said in post 4040:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Amen.

All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

 

[Short Timer]

Every believer should read about this man.

The man I was referring too was a local man born in the middle to late 1800, preached up until 1920-30s.

My Gparents knew him personally, one of them was raised in the same community with him.

 

[Short Timer]

It means exactly what the text says.

When Christ returns at His Second Coming there will be no second chances. The door will be closed.

We must be ready "before" He comes.


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Darby and Scofield twisted the meaning of these passages in an effort to try and get a second chance out of the passages.

However, the text says the exact opposite. There will not be any second chances.

Scripture say the five virgins at one time had "OIL" to burning a light, but it had went out,

Can an unsaved person be "anointed" with the Oil/spirit to burn a light?????

My bible says no, The spirit won't dwell in an unclean temple. (body)

At the second coming, the Angels "FIRST" gather all the tares casting them into hell, then gather the wheat into the barn, to live on into the MK.

With these five virgins having been saved and Hell and the earth the only place people can go at that time,

where are these five virgins going to live if the door is shut on them at that time????

Jesus will be staying here on earth for the MK,

the virgins are not tares to be cast into hell,

and you say they're "not worthy" to live with Jesus during the MK,

so where do these virgins go?????

If you want to see someone who twist scripture, take a look in the mirror.

 

[BABerean2]

The foolish virgins are those in the Church who will fall for the False Messiah ...who the Scriptures say will arrive on the world scene before the Return of Jesus.

Can they really be in the Church if they are not married to the Bridegroom?

They may be sitting in the pews, but are they really believers, indwelled with the Holy Ghost?

I had a friend who used to be one of them.
He was a leader in his church body and taught Sunday School, but was not really a believer.
Thank God, he finally came to real faith.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Note that in Romans 11:26, the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect, genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Romans 11:26, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" refers to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will get saved when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6).

You have successfully forced the scripture to fit the scenario first laid out in the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" written by the Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza, under the assumed name of "Ben Ezra a converted Jew". Page 349

"...then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah."

Lacunza has taken salvation on an individual basis through faith and turned it into "national salvation" for a whole nation of people. It is one of the foundational principles of Dispensational Theology and it came straight out of the Jesuit book.

Although you have seen the error of the pretrib doctrine, you are forcing scripture to do the same thing by wearing Dispensational lenses on these other areas of scripture. You are probably not even aware that much of what you are promoting is John Darby's doctrine, since it has now completely permeated the modern evangelical Church. For some of us, it is all we have ever heard.

You are also ignoring the fact that the covenant in Romans chapter 11 is the New Covenant which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.



Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

.

 

[Short Timer]

Regarding "this age of Grace (church)", note that there is no such thing as (what is usually called) "the church age". For the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15).

According to my Bible there wouldn't be a single human being left alive on the planet unless Jesus returned to stop it, much less a church.

I don't think you understand what "Prevail" means.

Regarding "Back under the law during the trib", note that nothing in the Bible teaches that. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

The law never changes.

As I've been saying, your ignorance of the Feast/plan of salvation/law has your doctrine all fouled up.

Jesus, as the scapegoat, died for the sins of the whole world that they "Might be" saved,
But that "Goat for the People", representing the "Body of sin" must be sacrificed along with the scapegoat "BEFORE"....
"ATONEMENT" is made complete.

Calvin never understand that and accused Jesus of "Limited atonement", and used predestination to justify his "LIE".

Here's the difference in being saved under Grace and and under the Law.

Grace:
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,


Law:
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Jesus asked, "Can you drink of the cup I drink", that is are you willing to crucify your body of sin to be saved as I crucified my body of sin to save you???

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (of sin)

If people are not "Willing" to sacrifice their "old Goat/body of sin", they won't be saved, and that is the only reason the "Whole world" is not saved.

The law doesn't change, the wages of sin will always be "Death" of the "Body of sin", but under Grace it's easier to pay than under the law.

Note that Ecclesiastes 4:1 isn't a prophecy about the future tribulation, but a general observation applicable to all times in this fallen world (i.e. there have always been some oppressed people without anyone to comfort them), just as Ecclesiastes 4:7-8 isn't a prophecy about the future tribulation, but a general observation applicable to all times in this fallen world (i.e. there have always been some people who live alone and work hard, without asking why).

It means just what it say, as long as the Comforter/HG is in the world/in people, power will be on the side of the Comforter/HG and people,

and when "HE" (comforter/HG) is "Taken out of the way", power will be on the side of the "Oppressor", Satan/AC,

The church indwell by the Comforter/HG might as well be Jesus walking around here on the planet, that's why it's referred to as the "Body of Christ",

And you think the devil is going to have power over Jesus and the "Spirit of God", which is the "Comforter/HG"?????

Every doctrine/precept in scripture teaches a Pre trib rapture when they're understood, failing to understand that is a failure to understand a majority of the other scriptures as well.

You can't get one thing wrong without it fouling up a major portion of other scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

but under Grace it's easier to pay than under the law.

Did Jesus only make it easier to pay?

... or did He pay it all on our behalf?

.

 

[iamlamad]

It began about 2,000 years ago, it is still in action now and is also future UNTIL the Return of Jesus AFTER the Tribulation (The Parousia).


The foolish virgins are those in the Church who will fall for the False Messiah ...who the Scriptures say will arrive on the world scene before the Return of Jesus.

I don't think that any of these verses talk about a second chance.


In the future there will be Jews and Gentiles that will bow to the Antichrist by taking the mark and worshipping the AC and his image and those who will not.There will be a remnant in the Nations around the World who will have refused to bow to AC.

-Edited to fix a quote-

I don't think so. The foolish virgins were short on oil! What does this really mean? I am convinced it means they were not FILLED with the Holy Spirit. It is God's plan that we stay being filled....filled up at all times. Many though never even get the FIRST filling; having IGNORED Acts 1 & 2.

 

[Short Timer]

Did Jesus only make it easier to pay?

... or did He pay it all on our behalf?

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus paid the wages of "ALL" sins for the whole world, then the whole world will be saved.

Obviously you're wrong and that is not the case, so how can Jesus die for the sins of the whole world without saving the whole world?????

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus death only open the door to salvation, but if any what to be saved they have to walk through the door,

and Crucifying their body of sin as Jesus did is the only way they can go through the door.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

A person can't be "Born again" unless the "old man" is killed/crucified first, then and only then can they become a "New Creature".

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Being baptized is a symbol of the old man's crucifixion/death and resurrection of the new man.

I don't know who is teaching doctrine at your church, but they sure got a lot of work in front of them.

 

[Short Timer]

I don't think so. The foolish virgins were short on oil! What does this really mean? I am convinced it means they were not FILLED with the Holy Spirit. It is God's plan that we stay being filled....filled up at all times. Many though never even get the FIRST filling; having IGNORED Acts 1 & 2.

Reberra said:
The foolish virgins are those in the Church who will fall for the False Messiah ...who the Scriptures say will arrive on the world scene before the Return of Jesus

NO, those five virgins knew the real Messiah had come and were banging of the door trying to get in with him.

And this is when the "HE" taken out of the way, so when the AC arrives with his lying signs and wonders, they will most likely recognize him for what he is, the AC,

and the same goes for the servant who believed the Lord was going to delay his coming, but got caught doing what he shouldn't have been doing.

Nobody is left behind in the second coming, all deceased/Rapture righteous return with Jesus, tares are cast into hell, the few survivors of the trib go into the MK,

Nobody is left behind.

Jesus/Church is a mystery to Israel, so is his coming for the rapture, the second coming has never been a mystery to Israel.

like Israel denying Jesus/church is a mystery to them, ya'll deny the rapture is also a mystery coming.

 

[Bro.T]

The facts speak for themselves. You are trying to tell me that the sun is blue because the Bible says it's blue* and I'm looking up in the sky and saying, "No it ain't."

* And the bible doesn't really say the sun is blue, that's just your weird interpretation.

The problem is that you don't know who are the true Israelite that are in captivity as a nation, this day, because I'm looking looking at the sun and its the color that the Bible say it should be. But the people that you think are the true Israelites this day, the Bible say this in Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. This is not the topic for discussion, plus you have no Biblical answer for what you believe. So we can just drop it.

 

[BABerean2]

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus paid the wages of "ALL" sins for the whole world, then the whole world will be saved.

Obviously you're wrong and that is not the case, so how can Jesus die for the sins of the whole world without saving the whole world?????

I don't know who is teaching doctrine at your church, but they sure got a lot of work in front of them.

You quote a verse of scripture and then turn around and say something that does not agree with the verse and then say I am wrong, even though you have changed what I wrote in the post to something different...

You are producing a false narrative by claiming I said something that I clearly did not say in the post...

This type of intellectual dishonesty is an excellent example of what is required to make your doctrine work.

Christ died for all of those willing to accept His Gift of Salvation, which we call Grace.

Nothing in scripture says the whole world will be saved. As a matter of fact it clearly says the opposite.

And then you turn around and condemn those in my church body for not teaching John Nelson Darby's doctrine.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, which is the only Church that matters.

.

 

[Bro.T]

Correct, God did not give up on true Israelites. As in former times, the masses of the nation turned wicked and THE TRUE REMNANT remained faithful. The true remnant of the first century included the Nazarenes like Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Peter, the Twelve, John the Baptist, James, and all their faithful jewish followers. This was the faithful Israel, the remnant, the elect. This is the Jewish sect that survived AD 70 and went on to accept the whole world into its NEW covenant contract.

Faithful true Israel is Jesus and the Nazarene Jews of the first century (and all converts to that New Covenant NATION they formed.

God wiped out the rest of Israel at AD 70. Their tribes, their priesthood, their animal sacrifices, their rule, and their lineage went extinct at that time. And so while the Nazarene elect escaped the wrath of God at AD 70 and went on to create the movement known as Christianity, the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and Zealots who opposed the apostles and Jesus perished at the Fall of Jerusalem. The only "Israel" to survive beyond AD 70 was the Nazarene sect, who fled the city when the Romans came and wiped out the whole nation during Passover time.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). This is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

Moses said that all those jews who refused to listen to the Prophet, Jesus, when he came, would be "cut off from among the people" (Acts 3:22-24). THEY are not to be counted as True Israel. In short, you keep calling the disobedient portion of Israel, True Israel. The OBEDIENT portion of Israel is true Israel. True Israel passed on via Moses, NOT via Korah and the rebel jews (1 Cor 10:7-10). True Israel passed on via Elijah, NOT via the jewish apostates of Baal (Romans 11:2-5). Isaiah said only the obedient remnant would be spared, not the rebels (Romans 9:27-29). Likewise True Israel passed on via Jesus, the apostles, John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, and their jewish followers, NOT herod and the pharisees and high priests! Jesus and his followers, the remnant, are the True Israel through which the kingdom was continued. The disobedient, wicked ones among the jews were destroyed at the fall of Jerusalem. Those wicked men were sons of satan in Christ's eyes (John 8:39-47), even though they were genetic sons of Abraham.

I notice that people understand things in part, and thats not bad, but when someone comes a long to fill in the missing gaps, why not take heed. If you knew who was the true Israelites in captivity to this day, We wouldn't have to go through all this miss understanding. In 70 A.D. it was only three tribes left, the rest of the nine tribes was already in captivity. Those last three tribes didn't all die. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 21:24 saying, "and they shall fall by the edge of sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This times (ruler ship) of the Gentiles (Europeans) will not be up, until the second coming of Jesus. Paul say in Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Pay close attention to what Paul is saying here.

Therefore, the true Israelites are still in captivity, now instill this day. Although most of this chapter in Luke is end time prophecy, Jesus here is referring to 70 A. D., when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem, recorded History, look it up. This was our last dispersion from our land and since then they have gone from nation to nation, from captivity to captivity. In the meantime their land, Israel, has been occupied by others. Among these nations the Lord promised the Israelites a hard time and warned them that the sole of their foot would have no rest. He said, their very life would be in question and that they would be continually oppressed. "...and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways; and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled (robbed) evermore..." (Deuteronomy 28:29).

Many claim that it does not matter who the Israelites are since Jesus came and died but Jesus himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews!" Even after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the apostle Paul asked the question, "What advantage then hath the Jew?" He knew the answer and said, "much every way" (Romans 3:1-2). It does matter who the Israelites (Jews) are because the Lord had the Amos prophet tell us that Israel is the only people he has known, therefore he is punishing us for our sins. The Lord also knew that others would claim our land and heritage and he had the Apostle John write, "...I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not..." (Revelation 2:9). In short, all the prophets, apostles and Jesus himself were Israelites.

 

[BABerean2]

In short, all the prophets, apostles and Jesus himself were Israelites.

This is most certainly correct.

Korah and those who followed him in rebellion against Moses were also Israelites as were those who stood with Moses that day, when the ground swallowed Korah and those who followed him.

The Baal worshippers were Israelites and so were the 7,000 who would not bow the knee to Baal.

In the Book of Romans Paul makes it clear that the promise comes through faith not through the flesh.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The middle wall of separation between all races of people was broken down on the day of the Cross.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain Forest and an atheist descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel.

They both need Jesus for the same reason and in the same way.

All Israelites have not been partially blinded.

Some Israelites have been blinded to who the Messiah is, and some Israelites have not.

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[Short Timer]

You quote a verse of scripture and then turn around and say something that does not agree with the verse and then say I am wrong, even though you have changed what I wrote in the post to something different...

You are producing a false narrative by claiming I said something that I clearly did not say in the post...

This type of intellectual dishonesty is an excellent example of what is required to make your doctrine work.

Christ died for all of those willing to accept His Gift of Salvation, which we call Grace.

Nothing in scripture says the whole world will be saved. As a matter of fact it clearly says the opposite.

And then you turn around and condemn those in my church body for not teaching John Nelson Darby's doctrine.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, which is the only Church that matters.

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The wages of sin is as much a death of people's body as it was for Jesus.

If you understood it correctly I wouldn't have to explain why the crucifixion of the Body of sin is only a "Spiritual crucifixion" for the church while those in the trib will literally die.

 

[Short Timer]

If you knew who was the true Israelites in captivity to this day, We wouldn't have to go through all this miss understanding.

Do you know the differences between a Jew and an Israelite?????

 

[iamlamad]

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus paid the wages of "ALL" sins for the whole world, then the whole world will be saved.

Obviously you're wrong and that is not the case, so how can Jesus die for the sins of the whole world without saving the whole world?????

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus death only open the door to salvation, but if any what to be saved they have to walk through the door,

and Crucifying their body of sin as Jesus did is the only way they can go through the door.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

A person can't be "Born again" unless the "old man" is killed/crucified first, then and only then can they become a "New Creature".

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Being baptized is a symbol of the old man's crucifixion/death and resurrection of the new man.

I don't know who is teaching doctrine at your church, but they sure got a lot of work in front of them.

Short timer is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: God made a doorway back to Him - but one must be WILLING to enter that door.

The truth is, even though Jesus died for the sins of the world, His blood will not cover one particular sin: NO ONE will get to heaven while at the same time be rejecting Jesus Christ as his or her savior. Of course, if they QUIT rejecting Him they can be saved.

 

[iamlamad]

Reberra said:
The foolish virgins are those in the Church who will fall for the False Messiah ...who the Scriptures say will arrive on the world scene before the Return of Jesus

NO, those five virgins knew the real Messiah had come and were banging of the door trying to get in with him.

And this is when the "HE" taken out of the way, so when the AC arrives with his lying signs and wonders, they will most likely recognize him for what he is, the AC,

and the same goes for the servant who believed the Lord was going to delay his coming, but got caught doing what he shouldn't have been doing.

Nobody is left behind in the second coming, all deceased/Rapture righteous return with Jesus, tares are cast into hell, the few survivors of the trib go into the MK,

Nobody is left behind.

Jesus/Church is a mystery to Israel, so is his coming for the rapture, the second coming has never been a mystery to Israel.

like Israel denying Jesus/church is a mystery to them, ya'll deny the rapture is also a mystery coming.

I agree: the ALL had oil, which tells me they were ALL born again and had the Holy Spirit WITHIN. It seems some became LUKEWARM and got short on the Holy Spirit. Not that He would leave; but Paul wrote, "be BEING filled" or "stay filled" with the Holy Spirit. My guess is, if the Holy Spirit has not heard someone pray for a long time, or open their bible, He will consider them LUKEWARM.

 

[BABerean2]

while those in the trib will literally die.

... like Stephen, and Paul, and all of the other Apostles except John.

... and like those thousands fed to the lions in the Roman coliseum...

... and like our Brothers and Sisters now being killed in the Middle East...
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