Can I be Christian and Not Believe the Bible?

Nihilist Virus

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Firstly, Islam and Christianity have different definitions of "Martyr;" it is entirely wrong to liken someone like St. Ignatius, who was fed to lions, to an Islamic terrorist.

Roman control varied in different parts of the Empire; even Diocletian was unable to fully exterminate the Church. Several Emperors beginning with Trajan did not actively hunt for Christians and indeed discouraged such persecution.

Now, further to the point, regarding the Pauline epistles, or indeed the epistles of other Apostles or early bishops like St. Ignatius (who was fed to lions), the question as to how these were transmitted or survived becomes less compelling when one considers the difficulty our contemporary governments have monitoring communications, with all their technology. Rome had only the most primitive cryptography (the Caesar Cipher and related schemes) and no effective surveillance; when one lacks electrical lighting, let alone infrared night vision, monitoring what people do at night becomes rather difficult, and early Christians typically worshipped before dawn (Matins) and after dark (Vespers). Even today one can visit Orthodox monasteries where the main liturgy starts at midnight.

There were dramatic persecutions however, and it is not unreasonable to assume that more was lost than was preserved.

Now, did the Roman Empire under St. Constantine manage to edit, control or otherwise censor the surviving material? This charge is sometimes raised by some Protestants. However, before the conversion of the Roman Empire, Christianity had spread substantially beyond its borders, to Edessa, across Syria, the Persian Empire, and into India, and into Armenia.

The Nestorians took refuge in the Persian Empire after Ephesus, which shows that these regions could become havens for dissent. Indeed the Paulicians dwelt in Armenia for over a thousand years.

Yet, in all of these varied regions, the contents of the NT were essentially uncontroversial. The Ethiopians bundled into their NY the Didascalia and a few other items in addition to the Athanasian canon, and the Syriac Aramaic Peshitta lacked some of the epistles. However, there was never any real controversy over this.

Tatian, in the second century, did compose a harmony of the four Gospels known as the Diatessaron, however, he was a bit Gnostic, and this rather unsatisfactory work was replaced by the Peshitta in the course of the fourth century.

Interestingly a large number of Gnostic texts entirely repudiated by the Nicene Church did survive and have emerged in recent years, for example, at Nag Hammadi.

In this long post you barely address the point. Your argument is that our prisoners of today communicate with the outside world, so why couldn't Paul have done it in a less technologically secure facility?

Entirely flawed reasoning. Prisoners of today communicate with the outside world because we don't take away all their rights. In the Roman Empire, do you think people had inalienable rights? That would be quite a laugh. Slavery and torture abounded. If they didn't want Paul writing, why wouldn’t they just break his thumbs or cut off his hands?
 
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Jaxxi

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As of right now, I have decided to become Christian. The reason I can be this is because I believe the message of Jesus was a wondrous and beautiful message indeed. And I would like to follow it. So as a Christian, my first goal is to understand Jesus more than ever before. Is that not what all the disciples did? I would like to become more like them. And so to better understand Jesus I would like to see things more from his point of view. Now the new testament offers a pretty good view of this. So when I hear that Jesus said that the old laws are still in effect I see who he was talking to. He was talking primarily to Jews and not me. And that is good for me to know so I can now forget about the old testament and focus on the new. The old is just there to be viewed from an historical perspective. So am I not now a Christian but perhaps of a different denomination? Now I am beginning to wonder if this denomination already exists?
What part of the Bible dont you believe? You really arent a Christian if you dont believe the New Testament. As for the Old Testament i find it hard to believe Moses lived 800 years...im not saying i dont believe it but its hard for me...I think The Old Testament and the New Testament read very differently and some of it is hard to relate to in this day and age.
 
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Wgw

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In this long post you barely address the point. Your argument is that our prisoners of today communicate with the outside world, so why couldn't Paul have done it in a less technologically secure facility?

Entirely flawed reasoning. Prisoners of today communicate with the outside world because we don't take away all their rights. In the Roman Empire, do you think people had inalienable rights? That would be quite a laugh. Slavery and torture abounded. If they didn't want Paul writing, why wouldn’t they just break his thumbs or cut off his hands?

The Pauline epistles were in part written before the imprison,ent of St. Paul, whereas others were written while he was under house arrest. However it is interesting that St. Ignatius, who was imprisoned under less favorable conditons, managed to get his epistles through, which we know from contemporary sources can be traced to that era, and which in the context of the Roman Empire would have been highly subversive.

This suggests that by the end of the first century, Christianity had grown to a not insignifigant degree; it might occupy the place Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses occupy in contemporary US society. I suppose by the time of St. Constantine it was considerable to the point where there was no obvious secular motive for Constantine to not embrace it.
 
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sparow

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A rule that precludes exploratory conversation? Sad and regrettable, if true. Can you show me where this forum rule is stated?



I'm a nihilist, I assume nothing.

Your assumption is quite flimsy.



I don't know what I would do in such a situation, nor do I know what it would prove.

I like a good joke; you assume that you know what a nihilist is; the first thing a nihilist does is assume every one else is an idiot.

I'm not aware that a martyr has to prove anything other than stubbornness.

I'll see if I can find the rule about Paul which also included discussing negatively the trinity.
 
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sparow

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A rule that precludes exploratory conversation? Sad and regrettable, if true. Can you show me where this forum rule is stated?



I'm a nihilist, I assume nothing.

Your assumption is quite flimsy.



I don't know what I would do in such a situation, nor do I know what it would prove.


I cannot find any reference about Paul or the Trinity now. The rules below would allow a discussion .

No General Apologetics Topics

Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with defending or proving the truths of the Christian faith and doctrines. Discussion and debate on subjects related to general apologetics are not allowed in the Discussion and Debate category forums. Christians who would like to discuss apologetics may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum.


Christians

•Discussions with non Christians must be respectful keeping in mind that just because someone has not yet accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior does not mean that the Lord won't draw him/her at a later time. (Col 4:2-6)

•Christians are stewards of Christ and His word and as such it is expected that all non Christians be treated respectfully by speaking the truth in love (1 Peter 3:15).

•Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard given that this is a Christian site. Non Christians, lurkers, the weak of faith, etc. are reading your posts which means that the impression you give is what they see.


Non-Christians

•Keep in mind that this IS a Christian website and as such CF reserves the right to choose what content is appropriate.

•All discussions with the intent of belittling or mocking Christians or Christianity will be promptly removed.

•All discussions belittling Christians by calling them mentally inferior, ignorant, bigoted, etc. will be promptly removed.

•All discussions blaspheming the Christian God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will be promptly removed.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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The Pauline epistles were in part written before the imprison,ent of St. Paul, whereas others were written while he was under house arrest. However it is interesting that St. Ignatius, who was imprisoned under less favorable conditons, managed to get his epistles through, which we know from contemporary sources can be traced to that era, and which in the context of the Roman Empire would have been highly subversive.

This suggests that by the end of the first century, Christianity had grown to a not insignifigant degree; it might occupy the place Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses occupy in contemporary US society. I suppose by the time of St. Constantine it was considerable to the point where there was no obvious secular motive for Constantine to not embrace it.

House arrest? I was always under the impression Paul was in a dungeon being regularly whipped.

Thank you for setting me straight on this. I looked it up and you are correct. I was definitely misled when I was a Christian.

If this is the "persecution" that the early church was being exposed to, then why does the "Why die for a lie?" argument hold so much water with Christians? And without this argument, what good reason is there to believe in the resurrection? I mean, literally all we have is second-hand, decades-old testimony. No "eyewitness testimony" at all. There is stronger evidence that Elvis is still alive.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I like a good joke; you assume that you know what a nihilist is; the first thing a nihilist does is assume every one else is an idiot.

A nihilist doesn't believe in anything, and we certainly don't make assumptions.

I'm not aware that a martyr has to prove anything other than stubbornness.

So then their martyrs prove nothing?

I'll see if I can find the rule about Paul which also included discussing negatively the trinity.

Kind of sad you are trying so hard to regulate the free exchange of ideas. Is your worldview that fragile?

I cannot find any reference about Paul or the Trinity now. The rules below would allow a discussion .

No General Apologetics Topics

Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with defending or proving the truths of the Christian faith and doctrines. Discussion and debate on subjects related to general apologetics are not allowed in the Discussion and Debate category forums. Christians who would like to discuss apologetics may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum.


Christians

•Discussions with non Christians must be respectful keeping in mind that just because someone has not yet accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior does not mean that the Lord won't draw him/her at a later time. (Col 4:2-6)

•Christians are stewards of Christ and His word and as such it is expected that all non Christians be treated respectfully by speaking the truth in love (1 Peter 3:15).

•Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard given that this is a Christian site. Non Christians, lurkers, the weak of faith, etc. are reading your posts which means that the impression you give is what they see.


Non-Christians

•Keep in mind that this IS a Christian website and as such CF reserves the right to choose what content is appropriate.

•All discussions with the intent of belittling or mocking Christians or Christianity will be promptly removed.

•All discussions belittling Christians by calling them mentally inferior, ignorant, bigoted, etc. will be promptly removed.

•All discussions blaspheming the Christian God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will be promptly removed.

What is your objective in posting this, and what is your point?

Also, you cite this:

Christians are stewards of Christ and His word and as such it is expected that all non Christians be treated respectfully by speaking the truth in love (1 Peter 3:15).

And then say this:

I like a good joke; you assume that you know what a nihilist is; the first thing a nihilist does is assume every one else is an idiot.

It doesn't sound like you were treating me with much respect.

I'm fine with that, but why post a rule which you have openly violated?
 
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Wgw

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House arrest? I was always under the impression Paul was in a dungeon being regularly whipped.

Thank you for setting me straight on this. I looked it up and you are correct. I was definitely misled when I was a Christian.

If this is the "persecution" that the early church was being exposed to, then why does the "Why die for a lie?" argument hold so much water with Christians? And without this argument, what good reason is there to believe in the resurrection? I mean, literally all we have is second-hand, decades-old testimony. No "eyewitness testimony" at all. There is stronger evidence that Elvis is still alive.

St. Paul received somewhat superior treatment due to his status as a Roman citizen and the fact he appealed to the emperor. Compare his fate with that of say, Ss. Ignatius, Lucretia, Mina, Euphemius or Abanoub.

Even Origen Adimantus was mutilated in an exceedingly severe manner that was akin to emasculation.

Now, in the case of the resurrection of our Lord, ecclesiastical tradition places several NT apostles there, most notably Ss. Peter and John, the latter providing the most compelling descriptions of the event. Ultimately however the decision on whether or not to believe has to be based on faith. I reject the aggressive negative proselytism against atheism by some evangelicals in the same way that I reject the hostile approach taken by some atheists against Christianity; either way, I think it does help to have a sense as to the ancient traditions of the older churches, for example the Orthodox, so that one does not make this sort of decision for the wrong reasons.
 
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Albion

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Bin Laden died for his faith
That's not the definition of a martyr (although I notice that you chose your words with care in order to fudge the difference between being killed while engaged in a war that you think advances God's cause...and being martyred).
 
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Nihilist Virus

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St. Paul received somewhat superior treatment due to his status as a Roman citizen and the fact he appealed to the emperor. Compare his fate with that of say, Ss. Ignatius, Lucretia, Mina, Euphemius or Abanoub.

Even Origen Adimantus was mutilated in an exceedingly severe manner that was akin to emasculation.

Now, in the case of the resurrection of our Lord, ecclesiastical tradition places several NT apostles there, most notably Ss. Peter and John, the latter providing the most compelling descriptions of the event. Ultimately however the decision on whether or not to believe has to be based on faith. I reject the aggressive negative proselytism against atheism by some evangelicals in the same way that I reject the hostile approach taken by some atheists against Christianity; either way, I think it does help to have a sense as to the ancient traditions of the older churches, for example the Orthodox, so that one does not make this sort of decision for the wrong reasons.

The bare minimum requirement for a resurrection claim is an empty tomb and eyewitness account of the person in question being alive.

I understand that John and Peter, along with the women, were placed at the tomb. What we lack is a first-hand account of these things from the people directly involved. It would be like if I claimed that my friend saw Elvis. That makes the already weak idea of Elvis being alive even weaker.

Also the tomb was never visited after Easter Sunday, nor was it ever visited by a neutral party, nor was it visited by any person who actually wrote that it was empty.

I agree it comes down to faith. I just don't know why faith is a good thing.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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That's not the definition of a martyr (although I notice that you chose your words with care in order to fudge the difference between being killed while engaged in a war that you think advances God's cause...and being martyred).

In the post of mine that you are quoting, you deleted the part where I ask you to define what a martyr is, and then you go on to chastise me for misusing the word and all the while offering no definition of your own.

facepalm-picard.jpg
 
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Albion

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In the post of mine that you are quoting, you deleted the part where I ask you to define what a martyr is
That's right. Some things are so easily settled by a visit to the dictionary that it may not be the best idea to play along with a game like this one. :) You and I both know that UBL was not martyred, not even according to the most creative and novel use of the word.
 
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Colter

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The bare minimum requirement for a resurrection claim is an empty tomb and eyewitness account of the person in question being alive.

I understand that John and Peter, along with the women, were placed at the tomb. What we lack is a first-hand account of these things from the people directly involved. It would be like if I claimed that my friend saw Elvis. That makes the already weak idea of Elvis being alive even weaker.

Also the tomb was never visited after Easter Sunday, nor was it ever visited by a neutral party, nor was it visited by any person who actually wrote that it was empty.

I agree it comes down to faith. I just don't know why faith is a good thing.

All things considered, the skeptic in me notices that the Bible is written as one would expect, all things considered. On face value it's very inconsistent for a fraud.

Apart from the overpowering, overemphasized death and resurrection, when we do what Jesus did we also experience what Jesus experienced; faith validation and reciprocation with the Father of all within. Therefore, the only proof we can offer of our experience with God in our inner lives is the facts of the lives we live.
 
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Albion

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Which shows conclusively that UBL was NOT a martyr. That he was a Muslim made no more difference than the fact that the king of Saudi Arabia is a Muslim. That he was a mass murderer....now you're getting to the truth of the matter. So...not a martyr.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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So which is your claim, that I had the wrong definition of martyr or that I misapplied it? Because you clearly were claiming the former, and you are irrefutably wrong.

If you now want to claim the ladder, you are still wrong because he was killed for acting on his religious beliefs in Jihad.
 
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The bare minimum requirement for a resurrection claim is an empty tomb and eyewitness account of the person in question being alive.

I understand that John and Peter, along with the women, were placed at the tomb. What we lack is a first-hand account of these things from the people directly involved. It would be like if I claimed that my friend saw Elvis. That makes the already weak idea of Elvis being alive even weaker.

Also the tomb was never visited after Easter Sunday, nor was it ever visited by a neutral party, nor was it visited by any person who actually wrote that it was empty.

I agree it comes down to faith. I just don't know why faith is a good thing.

The Gospel of John certainly does constitute an euewitness account.
 
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