There was no "before" before the Big Bang

[Light of the East]

Who claimed that "nothing... can suddenly BANG! and produce things?" That's a Straw Man of Big Bang cosmology, and I don't think anyone in this thread has argued for such a proposition.

That is the usual atheist position which I hear in such arguments. There was nothing and then suddenly there was protozoan or amoebic lifeforms which evolved into life.

 

[Light of the East]

And still no evidence. Could you please provide some evidence that invisible qualities observed in things point to God. Thank you.

I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.

 

[Light of the East]

No, he didn't. Hawking developed a model of the universe which is self-existent and which yet has a past-finite history. What Hawking showed is that it is not inconsistent to hold that there may have been an ordinally first moment of time in a universe which has never been non-existent.

Well, if it is self-existent, that sounds very much like God. Am I right in saying that you approach this from the same angle, i.e, self-existent, but that you deny personhood within this energy which has been self-existent for all time?

It seems to me that if you accept a self-existent universe, and this is indeed like God, then what your real objection is to is the idea of God as person who has to be recognized and interacted with in some fashion. Perhaps you just don't like the idea of an over-arching ruling personality in charge of all that is? (Just a guess)

 

[Boxing Pythagoras]

That is the usual atheist position which I hear in such arguments. There was nothing and then suddenly there was protozoan or amoebic lifeforms which evolved into life.

Well, if you've heard people argue such things, I'd be right there with you in disagreement, because that proposition makes absolutely no sense. However, as I mentioned, no one in this thread seems to be supporting such a claim.

I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.

I'm wondering: how does one "verify" a miracle? In what way can an event be confirmed to be a miracle as opposed to a rare natural event?

 

[Light of the East]

Is the sickness in brain more insulting one, than sickness in a leg? Just fact:

Trying to teach a fool is like gluing a broken pot back together, like waking someone out of a deep sleep. Explaining something to a fool is like explaining it to a sleepy person; when you have finished, he’ll say, What was that again? We mourn for the dead because they have no access to light. We ought to mourn for fools, because they have no access to intelligence. In fact, we should go into deeper mourning for fools, because the life they lead is worse than death. The dead are at least at rest. For seven days we mourn the dead, but a foolish or ungodly person causes a lifetime of grief. Don’t visit stupid people or spend a lot of time talking with them. Avoid them; then they can’t contaminate you, and you can live in peace without being troubled or worn down by their foolishness. Such people are a heavier burden to bear than lead; and the only word that fits them is fools. It is easier to carry a load of sand, salt, and iron than to put up with a stupid person. (Sirach 22 GNT).

You are not attracting anyone to Christ with such an attitude. Even God was gentle with those who had trouble believing.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.

Which miracles are you referring to?

And how do you go about, objectively verifying a miracle?

 

[bhsmte]

You are not attracting anyone to Christ with such an attitude. Even God was gentle with those who had trouble believing.

Agree.

I think of; taking the log out of one's own eye.

 

[Light of the East]

Well, if you've heard people argue such things, I'd be right there with you in disagreement, because that proposition makes absolutely no sense. However, as I mentioned, no one in this thread seems to be supporting such a claim.

I'm wondering: how does one "verify" a miracle? In what way can an event be confirmed to be a miracle as opposed to a rare natural event?

I guess I would respond by saying that the illness (assuming a miracle of physical healing) has been treated by doctors, has been unable to be successfully cured using a number of methodologies, and then responds within a short time to specific prayer.

Have you researched some of the more astounding miracles which are out there on the Internet? Things like empty eye sockets being filled and the blind seeing? Stuff that is just amazing and appears to be something beyond simply a "rare natural event."

 

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Well, if it is self-existent, that sounds very much like God.

Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.

I guess I would respond by saying that the illness (assuming a miracle of physical healing) has been treated by doctors, has been unable to be successfully cured using a number of methodologies, and then responds within a short time to specific prayer.

In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?

Have you researched some of the more astounding miracles which are out there on the Internet? Things like empty eye sockets being filled and the blind seeing? Stuff that is just amazing and appears to be something beyond simply a "rare natural event."

Whenever I am given specific examples, I certainly take time to look into them. I haven't ever been offered any examples of "empty eye sockets being filled," so I would find that fascinating, if you have one to hand.

 

[Light of the East]

Which miracles are you referring to?

And how do you go about, objectively verifying a miracle?

I'm not conversant immediately with all the things I have read on the Internet, nor the pictures I have seen, but a few that come to mind are the "incorruptible saints," the turning of bread into flesh (I'm talking about the Korean woman whose pictures are on the Internet where the Eucharist turns into bloody flesh in her mouth and she shows it to the camera) and numerous healings, such as those done by Brother Andre Bessette in Canada.

On the last one especially, one could make a plead that a person being healed by his prayers was a simple case where a "rare natural healing" met Br. Andre at the same time, however, there is a wall filled with crutches of those who came to him and were healed. The volume of healings through his prayers seems to speak against such special pleading of "natural healings."

As for verifying, the Church has a rule regarding miracles: it has to be verified by competent medical authorities, not by the ranting and raving of some Pentecostal making jabbering noises on the TV and telling you to just believe and you are healed (and then send him $100).

Of course, there are those who even when presented with a clear cut case of healing, simply do not wish to believe. belief make us accountable to God, and the human heart does not wish this. This stubbornness of the human condition is no better expressed than in the case of the writer/atheist Emile Zola.

Emile Zola was the self-proclaimed father of French naturalism (in literature). During the research for his novel, Lourdes, 1894, he visited the famous shrine. While there he had a chance to meet Marie Lebranchu (Miracle #16, 1892), both before her cure—she had tuberculosis in a very advanced stage, and Zola saw her coughing up blood on the train going to Lourdes—and after, at the Medical Bureau of Verifications. In his novel he altered the facts. Having depicted Marie Lebranchu as a hopelessly ill person, using the name of La Grivotte, he attributes her improvement to nervous excitement, and makes her collapse and die on the way home! (She lived in perfect health until 1920.) Zola knew perfectly well that Marie Lebranchu had been healed, and when a doctor afterwards asked him why he had made the story conclude in a way that was opposed to actual facts, he replied in a tone of annoyance: “I suppose I am master of the persons in my own books, and can let them live or die as I choose? And besides,” he added, “I don’t believe in miracles. Even if all the sick in Lourdes were cured in one moment, I would not believe in them!” However, after witnessing several healings during his stay in Lourdes, he wasn’t inclined to dismiss the evidence for alleged miracles as fraudulent.

I only want to see a cut finger dipped in water and come out healed.

Émile Zola (before he witnessed the healing of Marie Lebranchu)

No, I do not, or, better, I cannot believe in the Lourdes miracles. What I have seen is amazing, grandiose and moving to the utmost degree, but ultimately explainable by the natural laws.

Émile Zola (after he witnessed the healing of Marie Lebranchu)

I cannot? No, he simply did not wish to in his pride.

Another Lourdes Cure

I think the question I should like to ask is this: why are you inclined to not believe that God exists? What would happen to you, what uncomfortable thing would enter your life, to believe and act accordingly?

 

[Light of the East]

Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.

In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?

Whenever I am given specific examples, I certainly take time to look into them. I haven't ever been offered any examples of "empty eye sockets being filled," so I would find that fascinating, if you have one to hand.

I will have to see if I can find that one again. I did post some information on the Lourdes cures, especially the famous one which involved Emile Zola.

( I probably shouldn't have mentioned the eye sockets without having a link handy to the pictures I saw. Makes me look fraudulent at best)

 

[Light of the East]

Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.

In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?

That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?

 

[Black Dog]

Have you noticed that Genesis teaches:

That we live in a multiverse made up of at least 3 heavens or universes? Gen 1:8 and Gen 2:4
That the Big Bang of our Cosmos was on the 3rd Day of the Creation? Gen 2:4
That the First Stars did not put forth their light until the 4th Day. Gen 1:16 Science has recently learned that it was some 550 Million years AFTER the Big Bang before the first Stars lit up. This was announced in February 2015.

Answer those and I have a lot more which NO ancient man could have possibly known thousands of years BEFORE Science, and yet it's been in front of our noses for thousands of years now. It's empirical (testable) evidence of the Literal God. Amen?

You're just reading what you want into the bible. I can do the same thing with songs and stories about Santa Claus or Spiderman. It doesn't prove anything, besides the fact that some people have a wild imagination.

For instance, in the song Santa Claus is coming to Town, the lyrics say:

"He's making a list
And checking it twice"

The "twice" refers to the two types of angular momentum in quantum physics.

 

[bhsmte]

That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?

Does this mean those long odds of winning lotto, involve supernatural involvement?

 

[Boxing Pythagoras]

That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?

Are you saying that those prayed over by Br. Bessette always receive healing from their maladies? Or that they do, more often than not? Or that they simply receive healing a statistically significant portion of the time?

How many of the people for whom he prays are healed compared to the number for whom he prays which are never healed?

 

[bhsmte]

That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?

What about the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five?

I bet there are plenty of prayers to save these children.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are not attracting anyone to Christ with such an attitude. Even God was gentle with those who had trouble believing.

... not so much in the old testament. God prefers the destruction method towards not only those with trouble believing, but those that worship incorrectly.

 

[Black Dog]

It's on the right track. It's not so much that we don't know what laws might have been in effect. Rather, the mathematics which we use to describe the universe break down as we attempt to extrapolate backwards, beyond a certain point. When the math breaks down, we don't really know what's going on. It generally means that something in our model is either incorrect or lacking.

Thanks for clearing that up. Appreciated.

 

[Black Dog]

I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.

I've never heard of a verifiable miracle. I have heard of diseases going into remission, but I have never heard of a verified case of God regrowing an amputated limb.

 

[Aman777]

↑
Aman:>>Have you noticed that Genesis teaches:

That we live in a multiverse made up of at least 3 heavens or universes? Gen 1:8 and Gen 2:4
That the Big Bang of our Cosmos was on the 3rd Day of the Creation? Gen 2:4
That the First Stars did not put forth their light until the 4th Day. Gen 1:16 Science has recently learned that it was some 550 Million years AFTER the Big Bang before the first Stars lit up. This was announced in February 2015.

Answer those and I have a lot more which NO ancient man could have possibly known thousands of years BEFORE Science, and yet it's been in front of our noses for thousands of years now. It's empirical (testable) evidence of the Literal God. Amen?

You're just reading what you want into the bible. I can do the same thing with songs and stories about Santa Claus or Spiderman. It doesn't prove anything, besides the fact that some people have a wild imagination.

False accusation since my view agrees in every way with every discovery of Science and History. How many things do you know which can attain that standard? Your score on the above test is Zero. Here are some more questions which you will probably hand wave away since you have no answer for them.

Today's Science is ignorant of where the first life came from. Did it ride in on a Comet? Or did it bubble up from a Black Smoker? God tells us He created and brought forth, from the Water, "every living creature that moveth" on the 5th Day beginning some 3.77 Billion years ago in man's time.

Also, God reveals How and When prehistoric people inherited the unique superior intelligence of Adam, which was like God's intelligence. Gen 3:22 Without this, there would be NO Humans on this Earth today. So, make up all the stories you wish, but I will take God's Word for it, since He knows more than any man will ever learn.

Did you notice that God's Truth completely REFUTES the False Theory of Evolution since the ToE is ignorant of the Fact that Adam, the first Human, never took a step on Planet Earth? Noah was the first Human to walk on our Earth. Here is empirical evidence of the arrival of the Ark in the mountains of Ararat some 11k years ago.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

The Ark brought the first Humans (descendants of Adam) to our Planet from the first world which was totally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:6 If you don't agree, then let's see your empirical historic evidence of the magical evolution of creatures who evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, morphing into today's Humans. Amen?