Neolithic Revolution

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No you show evidence it is NOT true. Show me where the Bible is in error or where it conflict with science or world history. You have the burden of proof here, not me.

You did this in the other thread: It is YOU who is making the claim, so the burden is on YOU to prove the claim right. I cannot prove a negative.

 

[freezerman2000]

And having a ready-stock of meat in the form of livestock (cows, sheep, etc) is beneficial in the long run, especially with the bonuses of leather and wool for clothing.

You just hit the nail on the head..What enabled us to go from being a nomadic race of hunter gatherers to a sedentary life of villages relying on agriculture was the domestication of animals.

 

[freezerman2000]

The Bible lines up with the high school science books and the high school world history books. There is no conflict. One does not contradict the other. Anyone that knows anything at all about text books knows that they sanitize those books to remove any and all controversy. Everything is working just the way it is suppose to.

We just had an election and we just got two trouble makers thrown off of the school board. So actually I am beginning to think the system works. Now I know we have people in there that will do their best to get the job done right.

Please, let's not let politics enter the scene..

 

[freezerman2000]

No you show evidence it is NOT true. Show me where the Bible is in error or where it conflict with science or world history. You have the burden of proof here, not me.

If someone makes a claim,it is up to them to back it up..the ball is in their court.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

If someone makes a claim,it is up to them to back it up..the ball is in their court.

I did try telling him this in another thread, but it doesn't seem to have stuck.

 

[freezerman2000]

A part of debate is "backing up your claims".
Some get it,others don't.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If someone makes a claim,it is up to them to back it up..the ball is in their court.

I am not making a "claim" I am just stating a fact.

 

[joshua 1 9]

A part of debate is "backing up your claims".
Some get it,others don't.

I have actually taken graduate level debate classes. Each side presents whatever they have and then people can decide. If I do not defend my case then that is going to make it really easy for you to present your side of the issue. AS it is I am not worried because you have not presented anything to cause me any concern.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I am not making a "claim" I am just stating a fact.

You are not stating a fact. You haven't given any evidence, either Biblical or otherwise, that what you claim is true.
You are essentially just going "Here's what I say, and you have to believe what I say."

 

[joshua 1 9]

I would LOVE for you to show that the Garden of Eden as described in Genesis was the birth-place of animal husbandry. I really would.

That is fine but you can not trip over the terms that we use. If you want evidence look to see where animal husbandry began. It began in Ancient Mesopotamia. "In ancient Mesopotamia the most important domesticated animals were oxen and donkeys, on the one hand, and sheep and cattle on the other. The former served as draught animals; the latter were raised for their milk, and for hides and wool that could be converted into clothing. A Sumerian temple frieze shows men milking cows and pouring the milk into jars that are thought to have been rocked back and forth to churn the milk into butter."

Milk is actually very important. If people are just eating grains (cereal) it is difficult for them to get enough food. If they get a goat then the children have a little milk to put on their cereal grains and then they are more healthy. Also if they have a little milk left over they can sell it or trade it for other things they want or need. So milk becomes very important for them to properly develop. The Bible refers to this land as the land of plenty, the land of milk and honey. Only I can assure you that your not going to want to chase a goat everyday to try and get his milk. Your going to have to domesticate that goat or pen him up somehow. So you can start to see why animal husbandry and agriculture developed together to get a full diet of all the nutrition that you need to thrive.

The Tigris Euphrates river valley is very futile land because of the floods. This is land that you can grow abundant crops and the people can grow in numbers because they have food to eat. The Delta on the Nile river is where farming began in Egypt. This also is very futile land. We would think farming began in Egypt but it actually began in what we are calling now Mesopotamia. It was actually the Sumerians that invented the wheel. They were a peaceful people though. It was the Assyrians that developed the use of the horse for warfare along with the chariot. At first the Egyptians lost in their battles with the Assyrian army. Then Egypt got the Chariot for themselves. Only the Egyptians had more God so it was by far considered to be more rich and a lot more desirable for archaeology.

http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=MESP0777&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText="agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia"&SearchStyle=&dTitle=agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=0&SubCountPass=1&DocCountPass=0&ImgCountPass=0&MapCountPass=0&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=0&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=1&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

Mesopotamia from the Greek, meaning 'between two rivers. The Bible tells us that Eden was between the Tigris and the Euphrates river. This is what we now call Mesopotamia and this was where farming and domesticated animals began. There were actually two groups of people that lived here. The Sumerians and the Semites. They spoke a different language but they got along fine. There was no major conflict between the two groups. It was the people outside of the valley that they had to worry about. Mostly the mountain people.

 

[Goonie]

That is fine but you can not trip over the terms that we use. If you want evidence look to see where animal husbandry began. It began in Ancient Mesopotamia. "In ancient Mesopotamia the most important domesticated animals were oxen and donkeys, on the one hand, and sheep and cattle on the other. The former served as draught animals; the latter were raised for their milk, and for hides and wool that could be converted into clothing. A Sumerian temple frieze shows men milking cows and pouring the milk into jars that are thought to have been rocked back and forth to churn the milk into butter."

http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=MESP0777&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText="agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia"&SearchStyle=&dTitle=agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=0&SubCountPass=1&DocCountPass=0&ImgCountPass=0&MapCountPass=0&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=0&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=1&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

Mesopotamia from the Greek, meaning 'between two rivers. The Bible tells us that Eden was between the Tigris and the Euphrates river. This is what we now call Mesopotamia and this was where farming and domesticated animals began. There were actually two groups of people that lived here. The Sumerians and the Semites. They spoke a different language but they got along fine. There was no major conflict between the two groups. It was the people outside of the valley that they had to worry about. Mostly the mountain people.

Have you ever read any David Rohl, he wrote several books on biblical archaeology, including A Test of Time where he presents a revised chronological of Egypt,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)
He also wrote other books including Legend: The Genesis of Civilisation.
In which he locates Eden in Iran. I suspect you might enjoy them.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

That is fine but you can not trip over the terms that we use. If you want evidence look to see where animal husbandry began. It began in Ancient Mesopotamia. "In ancient Mesopotamia the most important domesticated animals were oxen and donkeys, on the one hand, and sheep and cattle on the other. The former served as draught animals; the latter were raised for their milk, and for hides and wool that could be converted into clothing. A Sumerian temple frieze shows men milking cows and pouring the milk into jars that are thought to have been rocked back and forth to churn the milk into butter."

http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=MESP0777&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText="agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia"&SearchStyle=&dTitle=agriculture+and+animal+husbandry+in+ancient+Mesopotamia&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=0&SubCountPass=1&DocCountPass=0&ImgCountPass=0&MapCountPass=0&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=0&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=1&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

Mesopotamia from the Greek, meaning 'between two rivers. The Bible tells us that Eden was between the Tigris and the Euphrates river. This is what we now call Mesopotamia and this was where farming and domesticated animals began. There were actually two groups of people that lived here. The Sumerians and the Semites. They spoke a different language but they got along fine. There was no major conflict between the two groups. It was the people outside of the valley that they had to worry about. Mostly the mountain people.

So you have proved that animal husbandry started (as far as we can reasonably tell) in Mesopotamia.
But you have not proven that your claims that the Bible, specifically Genesis, is historical fact are true. Your comment on the Sumerians and Semites is a non-sequitur and does nothing to prove any claim you have made.

 

[freezerman2000]

I have actually taken graduate level debate classes. Each side presents whatever they have and then people can decide. If I do not defend my case then that is going to make it really easy for you to present your side of the issue. AS it is I am not worried because you have not presented anything to cause me any concern.

I really don't have a side..
What I stated is part of the way a debate is run..the one who makes a claim needs to back up those claims.
please read this..
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/some-helpful-hints-about-effective-debating.7425823/

 

[Armoured]

The Bible lines up with the high school science books and the high school world history books. There is no conflict. One does not contradict the other. Anyone that knows anything at all about text books knows that they sanitize those books to remove any and all controversy. Everything is working just the way it is suppose to.

We just had an election and we just got two trouble makers thrown off of the school board. So actually I am beginning to think the system works. Now I know we have people in there that will do their best to get the job done right.

Care to cite some specific examples of them "lining up"?

 

[joshua 1 9]

So you have proved that animal husbandry started (as far as we can reasonably tell) in Mesopotamia.
But you have not proven that your claims that the Bible, specifically Genesis, is historical fact are true. Your comment on the Sumerians and Semites is a non-sequitur and does nothing to prove any claim you have made.

What is the conflict? The Bible says that agriculture began in the Tigris Euphrates river valley 6,000 years ago. Science says the exact same thing. Agriculture began in the Tigris Euphrates river valley 6,000 years ago. There is no conflict between science and the Bible. They both support each other and confirm each other. Science is based on artifacts and natural evidence. God leaves that evidence for us. Yet science has the burden of explaining the meaning of the evidence they have to try and make some sense out of it. That is where history comes in handy. The Bible is written History and so Science needs history and history needs science.

Gen 4:2 Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.

These are the actual tools they used for farming in Mesopotamia. We are talking about the agricultural revolution. Also at about this time man was going through a transition from the stone tools to metal tools. At first they just used copper, then they learned how to make bronze which was harder and stronger. Then they made iron tools. If you add carbon to the iron then you have steal. As the tools progressed you could produce more food. But more important you could defend your food from the people that wanted to try to steal it from you. As there are people that produce and people that plunder.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

What is the conflict? The Bible says that agriculture began in the Tigris Euphrates river valley 6,000 years ago. Science says the exact same thing.

Let me stop you here. It's not science that talks about history. It's archaeology.

Agriculture began in the Tigris Euphrates river valley 6,000 years ago. There is no conflict between science and the Bible. They both support each other and confirm each other. Science is based on artifacts and natural evidence. God leaves that evidence for us. Yet science has the burden of explaining the meaning of the evidence they have to try and make some sense out of it. That is where history comes in handy. The Bible is written History and so Science needs history and history needs science.

The Bible is no more written history than the Epic of Gilgamesh, a MUCH older text and MUCH more relevant to the area (The Kingdom of Ur, the oldest kingdom in Ancient Iraq) is written history.

These are the actual tools they used for farming in Mesopotamia. We are talking about the agricultural revolution. Also at about this time man was going through a transition from the stone tools to metal tools. At first they just used copper, then they learned how to make bronze which was harder and stronger. Then they made iron tools. If you add carbon to the iron then you have steal. As the tools progressed you could produce more food. But more important you could defend your food from the people that wanted to try to steal it from you. As there are people that produce and people that plunder.

Steel, not steal. And there is no evidence of steel being produced in Mesopotamia during the time period you are talking about. The Neolithic period ended with the introduction of bronze tools in Mesopotamia, and before then
And again, you are going off on a non-sequitur again. The topic is about NEOLITHIC. Not the Iron Age period, but the Neolithic. You keep shifting the time period to say it fits. Keep it to the time period in the OP.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Care to cite some specific examples of them "lining up"?

We are told that: Gen920 "Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard."

The earliest archaeological evidence of wine production yet found has been at sites in Armenia (c.6100 BC),[1][2][3][4][5]Georgia (c. 6000BC)[6][7][8] and Iran (c. 5000 BC).[11] The Iranian jars contained a form of retsina, using turpentinepine resin to more effectively seal and preserve the wine.[11] Production spread to other sites in Greater Iran and Grecian Macedonia by c. 4500 BC. The Greek site is notable for the recovery at the site of the remnants of crushed grapes.[12] WIKI

What does science say about barley: "Remains of barley (Hordeum vulgare) grains found at archaeological sites in the Fertile Crescent indicate that about 10,000 years ago the crop was domesticated there from its wild relative Hordeum spontaneum. The domestication history of barley is revisited based on the assumptions that DNA markers effectively measure genetic distances and that wild populations are genetically different and they have not undergone significant change since domestication. " http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/4/499.full

Barley: is one of the most important of the cereal grains, and the most hardy of them all. It was grown by the Hebrews, (Leviticus 27:16; 8:8; Ruth 2:17) etc., who used it for baking into bread chiefly among the poor, (Judges 7:13; 2 Kings 4:42; John 6:9,13) and as fodder for horses. (1 Kings 4:28) The barley harvest, (Ruth 1:22; 2:23; 2 Samuel 21:9;10) takes place in Palestine in March and April, and in the hilly district as late as May. It always precedes the wheat harvest, in some places by a week, in others by fully three weeks. In Egypt the barley is about a month earlier than the wheat; whence its total destruction by the hail storm. (Exodus 9:31) Smith Dictionary

Barley and Wine need clay pots to ferment. Before clay pots they kept their gains in baskets and they did not ferment. In the Old Testament, Aaron and his sons, the priests, were strictly forbidden to drink either wine or strong drink when they went into the tabernacle to minister before the Lord (see Leviticus 10:9).

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

We are told that: Gen920 "Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard."

The earliest archaeological evidence of wine production yet found has been at sites in Armenia (c.6100 BC),[1][2][3][4][5]Georgia (c. 6000BC)[6][7][8] and Iran (c. 5000 BC).[11] The Iranian jars contained a form of retsina, using turpentinepine resin to more effectively seal and preserve the wine.[11] Production spread to other sites in Greater Iran and Grecian Macedonia by c. 4500 BC. The Greek site is notable for the recovery at the site of the remnants of crushed grapes.[12] WIKI

And the Bible says NOTHING about where Noah started his farming. NOWHERE.

What does science say about barley: "Remains of barley (Hordeum vulgare) grains found at archaeological sites in the Fertile Crescent indicate that about 10,000 years ago the crop was domesticated there from its wild relative Hordeum spontaneum. The domestication history of barley is revisited based on the assumptions that DNA markers effectively measure genetic distances and that wild populations are genetically different and they have not undergone significant change since domestication. " http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/4/499.full

Barley: is one of the most important of the cereal grains, and the most hardy of them all. It was grown by the Hebrews, (Leviticus 27:16; 8:8; Ruth 2:17) etc., who used it for baking into bread chiefly among the poor, (Judges 7:13; 2 Kings 4:42; John 6:9,13) and as fodder for horses. (1 Kings 4:28) The barley harvest, (Ruth 1:22; 2:23; 2 Samuel 21:9;10) takes place in Palestine in March and April, and in the hilly district as late as May. It always precedes the wheat harvest, in some places by a week, in others by fully three weeks. In Egypt the barley is about a month earlier than the wheat; whence its total destruction by the hail storm. (Exodus 9:31) Smith Dictionary

Barley and Wine need clay pots to ferment. Before clay pots they kept their gains in baskets and they did not ferment. In the Old Testament, Aaron and his sons, the priests, were strictly forbidden to drink either wine or strong drink when they went into the tabernacle to minister before the Lord (see Leviticus 10:9).

And this is the best example of selective reading I've seen. You have shown nothing about where in the Bible it says that grain farming is supposed to have started. You just give us Bible quotes and say nothing about the verses and how factual they are with regards to history.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The Bible is no more written history than the Epic of Gilgamesh,

The Epic of Gilgamesh came before the Bible. It is on clay tablets. It is a story of Gilgamesh and his desire to talk to Moses about how to enter into eternal life. He did find Moses and he did find out how to enter into eternal life. Even though Siduri the bar maid tried to talk him out of it.

"After Gilgamesh braves the dark passage under the twin-peaked mountain through which the sun passes on its daily travels, he emerges into a magical garden by the sea, which represents a kind of second birth. The garden belongs to Siduri the veiled bar maid, the goddess of wine-making and brewing. With some trepidation, she permits the disreputable-looking Gilgamesh to enter her tavern. Then she gives him some pointed advice: he should give up his futile quest for eternal life and make the most of the life he’s living now."

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The Epic of Gilgamesh came before the Bible. It is on clay tablets. It is a story of Gilgamesh and his desire to talk to Moses about how to enter into eternal life. He did find Moses and he did find out how to enter into eternal life. Even though Siduri the bar maid tried to talk him out of it.

"After Gilgamesh braves the dark passage under the twin-peaked mountain through which the sun passes on its daily travels, he emerges into a magical garden by the sea, which represents a kind of second birth. The garden belongs to Siduri the veiled bar maid, the goddess of wine-making and brewing. With some trepidation, she permits the disreputable-looking Gilgamesh to enter her tavern. Then she gives him some pointed advice: he should give up his futile quest for eternal life and make the most of the life he’s living now."

The Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't mention Moses, in any capacity.
You see, you're doing it again: you want your personal believes to be true so hard, that you will twist anything you find to fit your believes. It's called confirmation bias and is a cognitive dissonance.