If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
On the contrary -- it is 1000 years.

There is not one example in all of scripture where the Bible says such and such will happen or did happen for 70 years, or 1000 years ... and yet it means "make up whatever amount of time you feel is needed".

Not even once.

Given that irrefutable fact - and the choice of the Protestant principle of "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - the conclusion is inescapable.

Some claim the word "thousand" cannot be figurative. Well, let us see...

Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

God owns all of the hills. However, in the verse above the word "thousand" is used to represent a very large number.

There is not one example in all of scripture where the Bible says such and such will happen or did happen for 70 years, or 1000 years ... and yet it means "make up whatever amount of time you feel is needed".

The point remains.

 

[Jan001]

BobRyan said: ↑
Rather it shows that all doctrine and tradition is to be tested by scripture.

Even supposedly "infallible" tradition of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai.

The "proof" that the teaching was either error or was valid - came from the method that we see Jesus using in Mark 7 and the saints of Acts 17:11 using

Indeed - and Christ shows the problem via His contrast of scripture with their doctrines and traditions of error.



That is true - but it is irrelevant except to show that sola scriptura testing is ALSO valid while scripture is still being compiled/generated/written - not just aftewards when it is static and sealed.

Making the case against "sola scriptura" even weaker.

Please show me the Scripture that specifically states that "Scripture alone" is the foundation of the Christian faith. That is what is meant by the doctrine of sola scriptura.

There was no settled canon of NT Scripture for the early church in the first century. The faith was taught orally by the authorized leaders of the Church. Later, they wrote letters to supplement their oral teachings. The apostles did not replace their oral teachings with their written teachings. Also, not all of their oral teachings are included in their written documents.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

Scripture states that it is the Church which is the foundation and support of the Christian faith. The Church authored the Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church decided the NT canon under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church interprets its own Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. When properly interpreted, Scripture always agrees with the original and still continuing oral teachings of the Church.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. niv

Paul does not mention Scripture at all as being the pillar/support and foundation of the truth of the faith of Jesus Christ. Scripture is helpful, but it was the apostles of the Church who were authorized by Jesus Christ to baptize disciples for Him and to teach them all He commanded them to teach.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” nkjv

So, which came first, the Church or the NT Bible? The Church!

Who wrote and compiled the Bible? The leaders of the Church!

Who has the authority of Jesus to teach doctrine? The leaders of the Church!

Who has the authority to interpret its own Scriptures which it both authored and authorized? The leaders of the Church!

The doctrine of Sola scriptura [Scripture Alone] is disproved by Scripture.

 

[bugkiller]

Please show me the Scripture that specifically states that "Scripture alone" is the foundation of the Christian faith. That is what is meant by the doctrine of sola scriptura.

There was no settled canon of NT Scripture for the early church in the first century. The faith was taught orally by the authorized leaders of the Church. Later, they wrote letters to supplement their oral teachings. The apostles did not replace their oral teachings with their written teachings. Also, not all of their oral teachings are included in their written documents.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

Scripture states that it is the Church which is the foundation and support of the Christian faith. The Church authored the Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church decided the NT canon under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church interprets its own Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. When properly interpreted, Scripture always agrees with the original and still continuing oral teachings of the Church.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. niv

Paul does not mention Scripture at all as being the pillar/support and foundation of the truth of the faith of Jesus Christ. Scripture is helpful, but it was the apostles of the Church who were authorized by Jesus Christ to baptize disciples for Him and to teach them all He commanded them to teach.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” nkjv

So, which came first, the Church or the NT Bible? The Church!

Who wrote and compiled the Bible? The leaders of the Church!

Who has the authority of Jesus to teach doctrine? The leaders of the Church!

Who has the authority to interpret its own Scriptures which it both authored and authorized? The leaders of the Church!

The doctrine of Sola scriptura [Scripture Alone] is disproved by Scripture.

Are you trying to say the NT as we have it is invalid?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Are you trying to say the NT as we have it is invalid?

bugkiller

No he is saying that - during the first century the Bible continues to be written and yet they are using "Sola scriptura" in Acts 17:11 and in Mark 7:6-13 so then how is that possible if "sola scriptura" means "don't allow any more scripture to be written".

 

[BobRyan]

Please show me the Scripture that specifically states that "Scripture alone" is the foundation of the Christian faith. That is what is meant by the doctrine of sola scriptura.

There was no settled canon of NT Scripture for the early church in the first century.

Yet the Old Testament scripture was settled as Josephus points out.

But as you say - the NT letters were continuing to be written and were accepted as "scripture" as they were written.

The faith was taught orally by the authorized leaders of the Church. Later, they wrote letters to supplement their oral teachings. The apostles did not replace their oral teachings with their written teachings. Also, not all of their oral teachings are included in their written documents.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

"Sola Scriptura" as we see in Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 was not the teaching that "no tradition exists" or that "All tradition fails the test of sola scriptura review".

You seem to be arguing a straw man.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice as Eph 6:2 is iron clad proof of the following claims that the "Ten Commandments" are included in the "Commandments of God"

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

==========================

If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where??

Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.

 

[A greater Hope]

Way to Go baberean2. You are on point way to give the word in truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Meanwhile - back to Eph 6:2

2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

What unit of Law (in the actual Bible) is Paul holding up before the NT saints when he instructs us to Honor our parents?

It would be the one where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- and unit of LAW in the Bible - has that feature??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jan001]

Are you trying to say the NT as we have it is invalid?

bugkiller

The whole NT canon and whole OT canon were determined by the early fifth century by a few church councils which chose them using the guidance/inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture must be understood in light of the oral traditions of the church. The oral traditions came first, the written traditions (Scripture) came second. The interpretation and understanding of the written traditions (Scripture) cannot contradict the oral traditions (oral preaching of the apostles). If they do seem to conflict, the person's interpretations of the written traditions are in error.

 

[Jan001]

Yet the Old Testament scripture was settled as Josephus points out.

But as you say - the NT letters were continuing to be written and were accepted as "scripture" as they were written.

Josephus was a Jewish historian.

The early leaders of the Christian church chose their Bible, both OT and NT canons, based upon the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If the unbelieving Jews had listened carefully to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they would have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. But, because they used their own poor judgment and did not accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, I can see why their OT canon is not the same as the Christian OT canon which was determined by the early church fathers at their councils under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

"Sola Scriptura" as we see in Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 was not the teaching that "no tradition exists" or that "All tradition fails the test of sola scriptura review".

You seem to be arguing a straw man.

You have not yet showed me the Scripture/Scriptures which prove your doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

I did show you that the apostles taught that it is Jesus' Church which is the foundation of the Christian faith. The Church's leaders taught the gospel by oral preaching and they supplemented their oral preaching by writing letters to individuals and to local congregations which were then copied and passed around to other local congregations. All local churches/congregations in every city and town taught the same exact gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

The Church is both the foundation (ground) and support (pillar) of the Christian faith. Scripture alone or Scripture only is not the foundation and support of the Christian faith. The Church does use Scripture to help teach the Christian faith, but the Church's teachings are definitely not based on Scripture alone. John 21:25

1 Timothy 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. nkjv

Jesus never commanded the apostles to write a book and then base their teachings on this book.

Instead, Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. nkjv

Ephesians 2:19-21
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God [Church], 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, nkjv

Jesus Christ did not build His Church on a book. He built His Church on Peter, the other apostles and prophets, with Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Jesus built His Church by commanding His spokespersons [His apostles] to make disciples for Him by baptizing them and teaching them to obey His commandments.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” niv

Jesus did not say the following: "Go to your local Christian bookstore. Buy a book called the Bible. Read it and interpret it for yourself. Then determine for yourself how to become my disciple."

 

[Jan001]

Notice has Eph 6:2 is iron clad proof of the following claims that the "Ten Commandments" are included in the "Commandments of God"

Please note that the Sabbath laws are not included in any of the lists of commandments of Jesus in the New Testament. They are conspicuously absent.

Mark 2:28
so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.” rsv​

The apostles and Jesus' other disciples worshiped God on the first day of the week because Jesus commanded them to worship God on the first day of the week, the day we call Sunday in the USA.

The Scriptures document that on the first day of the week, they "broke bread" as commanded by Jesus; they shared together the Body and Blood of Christ during their weekly worship service on the first day of the week.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” rsv

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. rsv​

God began creating the material universe on the first day of the week.
Jesus first made it possible for our spiritual re-creation on the first day of the week by His rising from the dead on the first day of the week.

It is obvious to me that every early Christian knew he had to go to a weekly worship service on the first day of the week. No written reminders were needed!

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come. rsv​

It seems to me that when Paul visited the individual churches, he did not want his precious teaching time either interrupted or shortened by the time that would be needed to take up collections for him to take to the saints who were suffering hardships elsewhere.

Paul asked the churches to take up their collections for him on the first day of the week during their regular weekly worship services instead of during his preaching time.

Paul specifically warns the Gentiles that they are to ignore those troublesome Jews who tell them that they must keep the Law of Moses' and its Sabbath laws.

Colossians 2:1-17
As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond [Law of Moses] which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him. 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. rsv​

Jesus nailed to the cross the Sabbath worship and dietary requirements; the fleshly circumcision requirement; and the new moon, festivals/feasts requirements of the Law of Moses.

Jesus' New Covenant, which was ratified/put in place by His death on the cross, made all of these Old Covenant requirements null and void.

The Levitical priesthood and its worship rites are no longer valid. These have all been set aside for a better priesthood and better rites, according to the order of Melchizedek, of which Jesus is now and forever high priest and He is seated at the right hand of the throne of God in heaven.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. rsv​

Hebrews 8:1
Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, rsv

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.
​

Neither the circumcision law nor the Sabbath Laws of the Old Covenant are useful for the New Covenant Christian.

Galatians 5:3
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. rsv
​

In other words, if the Christian believes he must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses, he is no longer a Christian.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. rsv​

 

[BobRyan]

The whole NT canon and whole OT canon were determined by the early fifth century by a few church councils which chose them using the guidance/inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So then Act 17:11 instead of "They studied the SCRIPTUREs daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" you believe it was "So they WAITED 500 years for someone to tell them what scripture was -- and then they could test the teaching of Paul by it"???

Scripture must be understood in light of the oral traditions of the church. The oral traditions came first, the written traditions (Scripture) came second. The interpretation and understanding of the written traditions (Scripture) cannot contradict the oral traditions (oral preaching of the apostles). If they do seem to conflict, the person's interpretations of the written traditions are in error.

Until you read Mark 7:6-13 where the supposedly infallible traditions of the one-true- nation church started by God Himself at sinai are hammered "sola scriptura" by Christ.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Luke 16
"31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[BobRyan]

Please note that the Sabbath laws are not included in any of the lists of commandments of Jesus in the New Testament. They are conspicuously absent.

Mark 2:28
so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.” rsv

​

Please not that Mark 2:27 and 28 ARE references to "the Sabbath" Law.

Please note that Jesus NEVER quotes the Law regarding "Not taking God's name in vain". -- the 3rd commandment.
NOR does any other NT writer quote the 3rd commandment - not even in part.

But also "notice" there is no command in the NT saying "whatever is not repeated is deleted".

Also notice that Heb 8:6-13 says the Ten Commandments were given by CHRIST.

And also notice - Eph 6:2 - where Paul affirms the unit of LAW - the TEN Commandments for NT saints - as that binding unit that has the 5th commandment as the "FIRST commandment with a promise" -- irrefutable.​

The apostles and Jesus' other disciples provide no examples at all of worshiped to God on the first day of the week - on weekly basis nor even as a day devoted for worship.

There is no commend in OT or NT where Jesus, or God the Father commanded them to worship God on the first day of each week - the day we call Sunday in the USA.

The Scriptures document no point in all of scripture where on the first day of the week, they "broke bread" as commanded by Jesus - as a weekly day of worship or even as a command to "worship on the first day of the week".

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” rsv

That did not happen on the first day of the week - it was a thursday meeting (weeky day 5) - and not a weekly thursday meeting.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. rsv

That was a one-time meeting. At no point is "week day 1" called "The Lord's Day" in Acts 20 nor even "a holy day" nor even "The new Christian Sabbath" nor even "because we met each first day" nor even "to celebrate the Lord's death until He comes" -- but rather specific to Paul departing the next day. A travel day.​

God did not begin creating the material universe on the first day of the week.

Jesus never called for "spiritual re-creation on the first day of the week". In 1Cor 11 the Lord's table is a memorial "celebrating the Lord's death until He comes" -- a Sabbath friday-Saturday event.

It is obvious to me that every early Christian knew he had to go to a weekly worship service on the weekly Sabbath - Saturday - the 7th day of the week because as Paul said 'what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come. rsv​

It seems to me that when Paul visited the individual churches, he did not want his precious teaching time shortened by the time that would be needed to take up collections house to house -- family by family.

by contrast what a great place to insert "as you meet every week-day-1" or "as you meet every Lord's Day" in 1Cor 16 since this is going to be a weekly -- week-day-1 act of each person. "setting by himself" at home ... some savings for the week - at the start of each week.


Paul specifically warns the Gentiles that they are to ignore those troublesome people who were prone to "making stuff up" using only man-made tradition as their "Source" and not the actual Bible.

Colossians 2:

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

Jesus nailed "our certificate of debt" Col 2:16 to the cross - not God's holy Sabbath memorial of His creative work.

In Rev 14:7 we are still obligated to "worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water" -- still to this very day.

Jesus' New Covenant announced in Jer 31:31-33 and repeated as unchanged in Heb 8:6-10 says "I will write My LAWS on their mind and heart" -- Law as Jeremiah and his readers would have known it.

Law that was spoken by Christ - in the OT - according to Heb 8:6-10

An earthly priesthood and its worship rites are no longer valid. These have all been set aside for a better priesthood
Jesus is now and forever high priest and He is seated at the right hand of the throne of God in heaven.

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. rsv​

Hebrews 8:1
Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, rsv

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.
​

The ceremonial laws of circumcision and annual feast Sabbaths are not included in the LAW Jeremiah new as included in the New Covenant.

Galatians 5:3
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. rsv
​

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Josephus was a Jewish historian.

The early leaders of the Christian church chose their Bible, both OT and NT canons, b

The Christian church did not write the OT - according to Peter 2Peter 1:19-21 it was the Holy Spirit that created the OT - not the RCC many centuries later.

 

[Jan001]

So then Act 17:11 instead of "They studied the SCRIPTUREs daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" you believe it was "So they WAITED 500 years for someone to tell them what scripture was -- and then they could test the teaching of Paul by it"???

These OT Scripture Prophecies were known/common to all Jews in that time period, whether they were Greek-speaking Jews or non-Greek-speaking Jews.

Until you read Mark 7:6-13 where the supposedly infallible traditions of the one-true- nation church started by God Himself at sinai are hammered "sola scriptura" by Christ.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Luke 16
"31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus was against the man-made traditions of the Pharisees which nullified the commandments of God. Jesus was not talking about the Sabbath. Jesus, as Lord of the Sabbath, nullified the Sabbath laws. The Christians did not nullify them.

Jesus was not against the man-made traditions of the Pharisees which did not nullify the commandments of God.

One example of an acceptable man-made tradition is the celebration of the Feast of the Dedication or Chanuka. This traditional man-made feast was not commanded by God. John 10:22

Your understanding of the meaning of tradition is not the same as mine. Plus you lump all traditions together as if they are all man-made and as if they are all evil.

The apostles started good traditions for the Christians to do because Jesus commanded them to teach them.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. nkjv

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. nkjv
​

As you can see from these three previous Scriptures, the traditions of the Church, both the oral traditions and the written traditions, must be kept by all Christians.

Sola Scriptura is not Scriptural. Sola Scriptura is actually disproved by Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

So then Act 17:11 instead of "They studied the SCRIPTUREs daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were SO" you believe it was "So they WAITED 500 years for someone to tell them what scripture was -- and then they could test the teaching of Paul by it"???

That simply is not in the text at all.

When we read Mark 7:6-13 we see where the supposedly infallible traditions of the one-true- nation church started by God Himself at sinai are hammered "sola scriptura" by Christ.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Luke 16
"31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

These OT Scripture Prophecies were known/common to all Jews in that time period, whether they were Greek-speaking Jews or non-Greek-speaking Jews.

Jesus was against the man-made traditions of the Pharisees which nullified the commandments of God.

True - Jesus opposed all of that tradition that was against the Bible - even though they considered their traditions to be infallible since they were the magisterium with supposedly sacred and infallible tradition.

Jesus proves their error - "sola scriptura" thus a pattern and a model for us in doing the same.

Jesus was not talking about the Sabbath. Jesus, as Lord of the Sabbath, nullified the Sabbath laws.

Not according to Jesus -

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Christians did not nullify them. nor did Christ.

Jesus was not against the man-made traditions of the Pharisees which did not nullify the commandments of God. That which was not in violation or contradiction to scripture was ok - but was not 'The commandment of God" - it did not carry that authority.

One example of an acceptable man-made tradition is the celebration of the Feast of the Dedication or Chanuka. This traditional man-made feast was not commanded by God. John 10:22

 

[Jan001]

Please not that Mark 2:27 and 28 ARE references to "the Sabbath" Law.

Please note that Jesus NEVER quotes the Law regarding "Not taking God's name in vain". -- the 3rd commandment.
NOR does any other NT writer quote the 3rd commandment - not even in part.

But also "notice" there is no command in the NT saying "whatever is not repeated is deleted".

Also notice that Heb 8:6-13 says the Ten Commandments were given by CHRIST.​

Hebrews 8:6-13 does not say that the Ten Commandments were given by CHRIST.

What is the letter of the Law of Moses?
It is all the laws commanded in the Law of Moses.

What is the spirit of the Law of Moses?
Continue on for the answer.....

Hebrews 8:6-13
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. nkjv
​

Hebrews does not say that the Ten Commandments were given by CHRIST.

The Law of Moses was given to the Israelites as a burdensome punishment because they made the golden calf and worshiped it.

What are the laws that God will write on the hearts of all men, both Jew and Gentile?

Luke 10:27
So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” nkjv
​

Luke 10:27 does a good job of explaining the spirit of the Law of Moses.

​

But, it seems the Gentiles already had the spirit of the law of Moses written on their hearts. And they did not have the burden of the letter of the Law of Moses to obey.

Romans 2:14-16
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. nkjv
​

The Gentiles were never commanded to obey the Sabbath laws. And, now that the Jews are to be saved the same way the Gentiles are being saved -- by faith, the Jews also are not subject to the Sabbath laws.

Acts 15:8-11
So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them [the Gentiles] by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them [the Gentiles], purifying their [the Gentiles’] hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you [Jews] test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the [Gentile] disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we [Jews] shall be saved in the same manner as they [the Gentiles].” nkjv
​

Peter states that the Jews will now be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles are being saved.

Were the Gentiles at any time in their history ever commanded to obey the Sabbath laws? No, they were not commanded to obey the Sabbath laws at any time.

The Jews are now being saved in the same manner as the Christian Gentiles and so the Christian Jews do not need to keep the Sabbath laws of their Old Covenant.

In other words, the Law of Moses and its Sabbath laws have been set aside and are no longer valid for the Christian.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. nkjv ​

We will agree to disagree.

​

 

[ISTANDBYJESUS]

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

==========================

If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where??

Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.

1 John 3:23-24King James Version (KJV)
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Jan001]

The Christian church did not write the OT - according to Peter 2Peter 1:19-21 it was the Holy Spirit that created the OT - not the RCC many centuries later.

The Holy Spirit inspired the early Christian Church's leaders to chose for their own OT canon only the OT books that God wanted them to choose.

 

[BobRyan]

What unit of Law is Paul promoting here?

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

What unit of Law (in the actual Bible) is Paul holding up before the NT saints when he instructs us to Honor our parents?

It would be the one where the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- and unit of LAW in the Bible - has that feature??

=======================

And in Heb 8:6-10 we are told that JESUS is the one giving the TEN Commandments at Sinai.

So then the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Jer 31:-31-33