Is science irrational?

[quatona]

Can you understand how God could be seen as the highest being imaginable?

"highest being imaginable" refers back to your own imagination and preferences. Yes, I do understand how you create your god concept that way.
Unfortunately neither you nor I get to define things into existence.

 

[Chriliman]

You clearly did not understand my point but that might be at least partially my fault. I will try to be very precise: Since you agree that we cannot disentangle thoughts generated by ourselves from those generated by God, we cannot be sure that any thought is our own is put there by God. You seem to want to maintain this distinction between the uncertain creaturely thoughts generated by you, and the "certain" thoughts that God has sent you.

But you just agreed that we cannot distinguish these two categories of thoughts.

I understand that I can get in the way of God communicating to me, but if I trust in Him with everything I've got then His promise is that He'll make things clear. The only way I could explain it any better is if I was God talking directly to you. If I were you, I would stop talking to me and go pray about it with an open heart to our heavenly Father.

It might be that I can't give you the answers you seek, only God Himself can. If you're a Christian this should make sense to you.

 

[expos4ever]

If you're a Christian this should make sense to you.

Well I am.

And it doesn't (make sense).

I do not doubt your sincerity. But the fact that so many people here all agree that there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this should cause you to seriously reflect on your position. But I suspect, but only suspect mind you, that you will reason thus: "I have a pipeline to God and these other people don't; therefore I am right ".

That way, I suggest, lies folly.

And please note: we are not, in the main, disputing the content of your theological beliefs - we are disputing the logical "structure" of your argument to effect that you have certain knowledge. You appear to want it both ways: you concede fallibility but then assert that there is a special category of knowledge you have access to that is infallible. Unlike probably most of the others here, I agree that we have a "pipeline to God", but I believe that any knowledge I get from Him cannot be "quarantined" against contamination by the fallibility of my mental apparatus.

 

[Chriliman]

Well I am.

And it doesn't (make sense).

I do not doubt your sincerity. But the fact that so many people here all agree that there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this should cause you to seriously reflect on your position. But I suspect, but only suspect mind you, that you will reason thus: "I have a pipeline to God and these other people don't; therefore I am right ".

That way, I suggest, lies folly.

And please note: we are not, in the main, disputing the content of your theological beliefs - we are disputing the logical "structure" of your argument to effect that you have certain knowledge. You appear to want it both ways: you concede fallibility but then assert that there is a special category of knowledge you have access to that is infallible. Unlike probably most of the others here, I agree that we have a "pipeline to God", but I believe that any knowledge I get from Him cannot be "quarantined" against contamination by the fallibility of my mental apparatus.

In the midst of trying to help atheists understand why I hold my beliefs and my reasoning for my beliefs, I'll admit I get a little frustrated and maybe don't write in the most sensible way, but I'm sure you can understand that this is to be expected on an online forum. I'm talking to as many as 4 or 5 people all at once, who are all on a mission to find fault in my logic.

I do claim to be right in holding my beliefs, but ultimately let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Davian]

Can you see how my beliefs and God can be seen as separate things?

No.

My beliefs are fallible. God is not.

That your god is not fallible is your belief. Can you see how they are not seen as separate?

 

[Butterfly99]

No science isn't irrational but there's a lotta irrational people.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

My conclusion is that it's very difficult to reason with someone who has no doubt that God is false.

As I said, doubt is very important in finding truth so if you have no doubt that God is false, then it's likely you're not really thinking about the possibility of God.

This seems to me like a double-standard. You expect us to doubt, but you don't allow it in yourself. In fact, you strive to vanquish your doubts. If doubt is important to finding the truth, why would you do that?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's good! I'm glad you can admit that.

Every atheist you have spoken to on here has said something to that effect. You haven't been paying attention.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We're all at different stages in our spiritual walk with Christ. Trust in Him.

I don't think you grasp how condescending your posts can be.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I understand that I can get in the way of God communicating to me, but if I trust in Him with everything I've got then His promise is that He'll make things clear. The only way I could explain it any better is if I was God talking directly to you. If I were you, I would stop talking to me and go pray about it with an open heart to our heavenly Father.

It might be that I can't give you the answers you seek, only God Himself can. If you're a Christian this should make sense to you.

And what if the answers he receives differ from the answers you receive?

 

[Chriliman]

This seems to me like a double-standard. You expect us to doubt, but you don't allow it in yourself. In fact, you strive to vanquish your doubts. If doubt is important to finding the truth, why would you do that?

You forget that I did go through a period of doubt and questioning whether God exists or not. It was a very dark time in my life.

Now I doubt in a different way, it's more about whether I'm doing the right thing that pleases God.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You forget that I did go through a period of doubt and questioning whether God exists or not. It was a very dark time in my life.

Now I doubt in a different way, it's more about whether I'm doing the right thing that pleases God.

You said doubt is important to finding the truth, yet you want only to vanquish it in yourself, rather than reflecting on it. Is this in line with you wanting your beliefs to be true, as opposed to wanting to know whether they are true?

 

[Chriliman]

You said doubt is important to finding the truth, yet you want only to vanquish it in yourself, rather than reflecting on it. Is this in line with you wanting your beliefs to be true, as opposed to wanting to know whether they are true?

I think we all want our beliefs to be true otherwise we would hold the belief. I think my belief becomes a known truth after evidence is shown to me personally.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe this, but I would never claim I am certain of it. Nor would I ever imagine that any thought that I have is beyond the possibility of error simply because I believe I have the Spirit dwelling in me.

+1 That does indeed appear to be what Chriliman is claiming.

 

[Davian]

I think we all want our beliefs to be true otherwise we would hold the belief.

Belief is not a conscious choice. Why would I not want to believe that there is something more than this relatively brief biological stint here on Earth? That would be fantastic.

I just do not find the evidence for it, such as it is, in the least way compelling.

I think my belief becomes a known truth after evidence is shown to me personally.

Your belief is founded on the belief that you have had evidence shown to you personally. Does this circular reasoning not leave you dizzy?

 

[KCfromNC]

I guess that's the difference. I'm convinced God exists.

I'm as convinced as you are about your own existence. Would you ever deny that you exist?

Something that I call me exists, but I could be completely mistaken about its true nature. It could be a convenient fiction created by my brain. Are you willing to say the same about your god?

 

[durangodawood]

I think we all want our beliefs to be true otherwise we would hold the belief. I think my belief becomes a known truth after evidence is shown to me personally.

Is faith no longer an issue for you, now that your apprehension of God is one of certainty?

 

[Chriliman]

Is faith no longer an issue for you, now that your apprehension of God is one of certainty?

Faith still plays a major part because I can't see God with my eyes but I have faith he is there guiding me.

It's something I can sense with my heart & soul, not my regulare 5 senses.

It's an understanding of the spiritual war that is currently waging in the hearts of men. We can only defeat evil and have peace with the power of Jesus Christ.

 

[HitchSlap]

You forget that I did go through a period of doubt and questioning whether God exists or not. It was a very dark time in my life.

Maybe a dark time in one's life is not the best time to question the existence of god.

 

[durangodawood]

Faith still plays a major part because I can't see God with my eyes but I have faith he is there guiding me.

It's something I can sense with my heart & soul, not my regulare 5 senses.

It's an understanding of the spiritual war that is currently waging in the hearts of men. We can only defeat evil and have peace with the power of Jesus Christ.

If you know God as well as I know my own body/self, like you said, why do you need any faith? I need no faith in my self as a thing that exists.