Is the theory of evolution moral and ethical

[stevevw]

That is not a very accurate picture of how the general theory of relativity developed.

In fact, it was that the equations showed that a universe that was initially 'at rest' would collapse together in the future that motivated Einstein's idea, since the available evidence (and thinking) was that the universe was static. The cosmological constant was supposed to solve the problem of the universe coming to an end, rather than to prevent it from having a beginning. Later work by Friedmann, Lemaître, Robertson & Walker produced the idea of an expanding universe, and Lemaître is generally regarded as the first to propose the Big Bang Theory, shortly before Hubble's experimental verification of the expansion of the universe. None of this has anything to do with Einstein's religious ideas.

True but it still doesn't change the fact that Einstein believed in a creator God.

 

[stevevw]

The Hall-Hartl E. coli experiment. In a 1974 paper Barry Hall and Daniel Hartl identified a gene in the bacterium E. coli that is responsible for metabolizing lactose, using a complicated three-part process. They removed this gene, and then permitted the bacteria to multiply in a stressed environment containing lactose. Within 24 hours the bacteria had evolved a capability to utilize lactose, by means of a similar but distinct three-part biochemical pathway, involving two mutated genes [Hall1974; Miller1999, pg. 145-147]. Biologist Douglas Futumya described this discovery as follows: "One could not wish for a better demonstration of the neo-Darwinian principle that mutation and natural selection in concert are the source of complex adaptations." [Futumya1986]. Biologist Kenneth Miller points out that not only is it a valid example of evolutionary novelty, it is also an example of a multi-part biochemical system that intelligent design writer Michael Behe has insisted could not be produced by natural evolution [Miller2005]. See also the discussion of Complexity.
http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/evolution/novelty.php

Reality beats anyone's reasoning. And those papers you cited don't say what you seem to think they say.

Yes reality does and its only when you shine the light of reality on evolution that you find the truth. I will come back to this as its late and this is a bit more involved than I have time to answer at the moment. But briefly the experiment above has been refuted and it is based on very flimsy evidence. Since then there have been several attempts to repeat it without success. Even Hall has admitted this. But even at best it is showing some ability of bacteria to adapt to new conditions and it is changing existing genes by either losing some function to gain a change or re activating an existing ability that was already there. Another possibility suggested is HGT as bacteria have a great ability to share genetic info.

Another outcome found is that because a change is made to adapt to new conditions it also brings with it an overall cost to fitness which can become a barrier to overall evolvability. But the evidence has been shown to be very inconclusive. Its funny though that we have an example from years ago and another few that have been claimed like antibiotic resistance in bacteria. Bacteria being something that we should see a lot of evolution is. Yet there a only a few examples cited. You would think it would be easily found and there would be many examples of various stages of evolution. But I will post more detail and support later.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian shows that evolution of the sort creatonists reject has been directly observed to happen)

Yes reality does and its only when you shine the light of reality on evolution that you find the truth.

It does. I can show you some more of it, if you like.

I will come back to this as its late and this is a bit more involved than I have time to answer at the moment. But briefly the experiment above has been refuted

But you don't know how? C'mon back when you get the party line straight from you leaders.

Since then there have been several attempts to repeat it without success.

You've been deceived about that:
The E. coli long-term evolution experiment is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since 24 February 1988.[1] The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations in February 2010 and 60,000 in April 2014.[2]


Zachary Blount and Richard Lenski in 2015

Since the experiment's inception in 1988, Lenski and his colleagues have reported a wide array of genetic changes. Some changes have occurred in all 12 populations and others have only appeared in one or a few populations. For example, all 12 populations experienced improvement in fitness that decelerated over time and some of populations evolved detrimental effects such as defects in DNA repair, causing mutator phenotypes. One of the significant adaptions occurred in one strain of E. coli. In general, this bacteria is known for not being able to use citrate in an aerobic environment as an energy source, even though it could use citrate under anaerobic conditions because it already has the machinery to process citrate.[3] This strain, though ancestrally unable to do so initially, was able to transport citrate for use as an energy source after a duplication mutation that was involved in the gene for the citrate transporter protein used in anaerobic growth. Even though all the ancestors already had a complete citric acid cycle, and thus could metabolize citrate internally for energy during aerobic growth, none of the 12 populations had a transporter protein for citrate since the beginning, which was the only barrier to being able to use citrate for energy in oxygen-rich conditions. Earlier independent studies had already reported E.Coli strains from agricultural or clinical settings that already had the ability to use citrate under aerobic conditions.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

Complex genetic changes are typically seen like that. Some creationists claim that it's cheating to use bacteria, since they reproduce so rapidly, we can get the equivalent of thousands of years of vertebrate time in a relatively short time, making long-term evolutionary events observable.

But even at best it is showing some ability of bacteria to adapt to new conditions and it is changing existing genes by either losing some function to gain a change or re activating an existing ability that was already there.

You've been deceived there, too. You see, the old function is still there (duplicated genes) while an entirely new system evolved.

Another possibility suggested is HGT as bacteria have a great ability to share genetic info.

Sorry, that excuse won't work, either. The culture was from a single bacterium.

Another outcome found is that because a change is made to adapt to new conditions it also brings with it an overall cost to fitness which can become a barrier to overall evolvability.

Sounds like another creationist fairy tale. Show us that it happened. I think you're out of excuses.

 

[Poster0]

Thats right, i fail at everything, even failing itself. I have severe phychological damage and im very messed up. Why do i come talk to people on the internet who dont care? I dont know, why do i do anything? My only question is, how will i get through this day? Its going to to be very hard i think.

It seems strange to me that i must agree with evolutionists or i will we accused of sin. It seems strange also that a fellow Christian would care more about evoltion theory, or even politics, than his/her brother. Thats what you get when you get involved in politics and things like evoltion theory, you get arguments and it doesnt help anyone. Will we now teach evolution in church? May as well, because it would be sin not to agree with evoltion.. I cant handle this world as it is, and getting around this crap makes it far more difficult. I may as well just jump in the middle of a pack of wolves and allow them to devoir me. Why do i even bother talking to any of you? Its not you actually give a crap about me anyway. I must have some seriouslyphychological issues.

 

[Poster0]

I cannot believe that man evolved from some primitive animal over the course of millions of years. If that makes me wrong then thats what i am. I also cannot believe in a Church that would accept this theory, and who would accuse others of sin if they dont also accept this thoery. I cannot believe in a Church that lacks enough discernment to see that this issue, and political matters, will only divide people and cause contention rather than love. Sure, i have problems, and there is no denying that, but comming to this websight sure doesnt make it any better. I wont be joining any church, both because i cant and because i dont want to be part of this kind of stuff. IM sorry i have problems, sorry im foolish enough to come here, but i prommise you that i'll try my best to stay away and stay to myself from now on. I will retain my faith in the Lord, but my faith in Church is dead, along with politics that it seems to love so much.

 

[bhsmte]

I cannot believe that man evolved from some primitive animal over the course of millions of years. If that makes me wrong then thats what i am. I also cannot believe in a Church that would accept this theory, and who would accuse others of sin if they dont also accept this thoery. I cannot believe in a Church that lacks enough discernment to see that this issue, and political matters, will only divide people and cause contention rather than love. Sure, i have problems, and there is no denying that, but comming to this websight sure doesnt make it any better. I wont be joining any church, both because i cant and because i dont want to be part of this kind of stuff. IM sorry i have problems, sorry im foolish enough to come here, but i prommise you that i'll try my best to stay away and stay to myself from now on. I will retain my faith in the Lord, but my faith in Church is dead, along with politics that it seems to love so much.

I guess you don't want to leave the thread.

Who is accusing you of sinning if you don't accept the TOE? Please be specific.

It appears your faith beliefs are quite fragile and those citing evidence for a theory you can not accept, is causing you great turmoil. If visiting this part of the site causing you so much stress, probably best to follow through and stay away from it.

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

True but it still doesn't change the fact that Einstein believed in a creator God.

Right! Never let facts get in the way of your fantasy.

 

[Poster0]

I guess you don't want to leave the thread.

Who is accusing you of sinning if you don't accept the TOE? Please be specific.

It appears your faith beliefs are quite fragile and those citing evidence for a theory you can not accept, is causing you great turmoil. If visiting this part of the site causing you so much stress, probably best to follow through and stay away from it.

You really do lack empathy. My faith in God is not fragile, its faith in this world and myself which is fragile. If i could just avoid people like you, my faith would be fine. I have no one however, and i seem to be victimizing myself by putting myself in fellowship with a pack of wolves. You do realize that i suffer from many psychological problems don't you? What logic compels you to argue with a person who suffers from such things? Does it make you feel good to tear down my faith? Does it make your argument more believable if you forsake empathy and human decency? Im sure you have a real life, you have friends and other things that help you survive, but i dont have anything, and so when i leave here i wont have a shoulder to lean on, or a friend to lift my spirits, no, i will only have the memory of your words that will haunt me. They will play over and over in my mind and tell me what a piece of crap i am. IF you truly had any human decency you would be more understanding, but its not your fault necessarily, its because you are also a product of your surroundings. Now please, dont say any more negative stuff, it wont help either of us.

 

[Poster0]

I'm sorry about some things I said myself.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

You really do lack empathy. My faith in God is not fragile, its faith in this world and myself which is fragile. If i could just avoid people like you, my faith would be fine. I have no one however, and i seem to be victimizing myself by putting myself in fellowship with a pack of wolves. You do realize that i suffer from many psychological problems don't you? What logic compels you to argue with a person who suffers from such things? Does it make you feel good to tear down my faith? Does it make your argument more believable if you forsake empathy and human decency? Im sure you have a real life, you have friends and other things that help you survive, but i dont have anything, and so when i leave here i wont have a shoulder to lean on, or a friend to lift my spirits, no, i will only have the memory of your words that will haunt me. They will play over and over in my mind and tell me what a piece of crap i am. IF you truly had any human decency you would be more understanding, but its not your fault necessarily, its because you are also a product of your surroundings. Now please, dont say any more negative stuff, it wont help either of us.

I feel like you are really disempowering yourself with the attitude you're exhibiting in this post. You are an intelligent person and you are capable of taking responsibility for your own actions, which include making prudent decisions about which threads you will participate in on this forum. Most of us are strangers to one another, and it's unreasonable to expect anyone else to be familiar with the psychological problems or sensitivities of others here. Each of us be accountable for ourselves. In 1 Corinthians 6:12 it tells us that "all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable." It's evident that for you it's not profitable for you to engage in this discussion because it is causing you such distress. You are the one who has the ability to simply stop following the thread and no longer post in it. No one else but a moderator can make that choice for you, nor should they.

And on a personal note, the person you're replying to here is an atheist but that doesn't make him or any of the other atheists on this forum a wolf. I'm a Christian and he's always been kind to me.

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

I'm sorry about some things I said myself.

There is no reason that you need to choose between Christianity and rational science. Here are some selected books that show how to be Christian and not be an idiot.



Ayala, Francisco
2007 Darwin’s Gift: To Science and Religion (Washington DC: Joseph Henry Press- National Academies Press)

Collins, Francis S.
2006 The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief New York Free Press- Simon and Schuster

Frye, Roland Mushat (editor)
1983 "Is God a Creationist?: The Religious Case Against Creation-Science" New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, Inc.

Giberson, Karl W.
2008 “Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and believe in evolution” New York: HarperCollins (Giberson is a physicist and it shows. He makes many errors of fact, scientific and historical).

Godfry, Stephen J. and Christopher R. Smith
2005 "Paradigms on Pilgrimage: Creationism, Paleontology, and Biblical Interpretation." Toronto: Clements Publishing.

Haught, John F.
2001 “Responses to 101 Questions on God and Evolution” New York: Paulist Press Haught is a Catholic theologian who testified as a plaintiff expert in the Dover, Pa “Intelligent Design” trial.

Hyers, Conrad
1984 “The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science” Atlanta: John Knox Press (Conrad Hyers has served as Professor of the History of Religion and Chair of the Department of Religion at both Beloit College and at Gustavus Adolphus College. He is also an ordained Presbyterian minister)

Kitcher, Phillip
2007 “Living With Darwin: Evolution, Design, and the Future of Life” Oxford University Press

Miller, Keith B. (editor)
2003 “Perspectives on an Evolving Creation” Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing

Ken Miller
1999 "Finding Darwin's God" New York: HarperCollins
____
2008 “Only a Theory” New York: Viking Press

Roberts, Michael
2008 "Evangelicals and Science" Greenwood Press

Towne, Margaret Gray
2003 "Honest to Genesis: A Biblical & Scientific Challenge to Creationism" Baltimore: PublishAmerica"

Young, Davis A.
1995 “The Biblical Flood: A case study of the Church’s Response to extrabiblical evidence” Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Paternoster Press

Young, Davis A., Ralf F. Stearley
2008 "The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth" Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press

 

[Poster0]

I feel like you are really disempowering yourself with the attitude you're exhibiting in this post. You are an intelligent person and you are capable of taking responsibility for your own actions, which include making prudent decisions about which threads you will participate in on this forum. Most of us are strangers to one another, and it's unreasonable to expect anyone else to be familiar with the psychological problems or sensitivities of others here. Each of us be accountable for ourselves. In 1 Corinthians 6:12 it tells us that "all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable." It's evident that for you it's not profitable for you to engage in this discussion because it is causing you such distress. You are the one who has the ability to simply stop following the thread and no longer post in it. No one else but a moderator can make that choice for you, nor should they.

And on a personal note, the person you're replying to here is an atheist but that doesn't make him or any of the other atheists on this forum a wolf. I'm a Christian and he's always been kind to me.

That's not very helpful. I disempower myself by coming to this website, you are correct about that. The apostles taught us to avoid debates and to be of one mind, and one judgment. You acknowledge that this discussion causes me distress, and you actually feed it more with your reply. If you want to side with an atheist who believes that we evolved from apes, rather than to edify a brother in distress, then that's your choice. If I came to your church is that how you would treat me? You are right that I must make my own choices though, and I must choose to avoid people because I don't think its good for me to be around Christians who debate everything instead of following Paul's command. If

 

[Poster0]

There is no reason that you need to choose between Christianity and rational science. Here are some selected books that show how to be Christian and not be an idiot.



Ayala, Francisco
2007 Darwin’s Gift: To Science and Religion (Washington DC: Joseph Henry Press- National Academies Press)

Collins, Francis S.
2006 The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief New York Free Press- Simon and Schuster

Frye, Roland Mushat (editor)
1983 "Is God a Creationist?: The Religious Case Against Creation-Science" New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, Inc.

Giberson, Karl W.
2008 “Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and believe in evolution” New York: HarperCollins (Giberson is a physicist and it shows. He makes many errors of fact, scientific and historical).

Godfry, Stephen J. and Christopher R. Smith
2005 "Paradigms on Pilgrimage: Creationism, Paleontology, and Biblical Interpretation." Toronto: Clements Publishing.

Haught, John F.
2001 “Responses to 101 Questions on God and Evolution” New York: Paulist Press Haught is a Catholic theologian who testified as a plaintiff expert in the Dover, Pa “Intelligent Design” trial.

Hyers, Conrad
1984 “The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science” Atlanta: John Knox Press (Conrad Hyers has served as Professor of the History of Religion and Chair of the Department of Religion at both Beloit College and at Gustavus Adolphus College. He is also an ordained Presbyterian minister)

Kitcher, Phillip
2007 “Living With Darwin: Evolution, Design, and the Future of Life” Oxford University Press

Miller, Keith B. (editor)
2003 “Perspectives on an Evolving Creation” Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing

Ken Miller
1999 "Finding Darwin's God" New York: HarperCollins
____
2008 “Only a Theory” New York: Viking Press

Roberts, Michael
2008 "Evangelicals and Science" Greenwood Press

Towne, Margaret Gray
2003 "Honest to Genesis: A Biblical & Scientific Challenge to Creationism" Baltimore: PublishAmerica"

Young, Davis A.
1995 “The Biblical Flood: A case study of the Church’s Response to extrabiblical evidence” Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Paternoster Press

Young, Davis A., Ralf F. Stearley
2008 "The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth" Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press

Teaching that man evolved from a lemur is heresy, and its far from rational. Please spare me your sheep in wolf clothing routine. Spare me your lies.

 

[Poster0]

If I went to a Church and they started teaching this theory that man evolved from an ape, or a lemur, I would run out the door horrified. YEt, you Christians will swallow this heresy because a scientist teaches it. I guess, there is no reason for me to fret over any of you any longer. I may have problems, but at least I'm not that blind.

 

[Poster0]

You ToE Christians are worldly, you are afraid to look different than the world. YOu don't want to be laughed at, and so you will agree to this absurd theory so you can fit into the world, instead of standing apart from it. Its no wonder I am distressed being here. I'm not afraid to be laughed at because I reject the ToE theory on mans origin, because they are laughing at the cross anyway. They are laughing because we believe that God created us, and that he sent His son to die for us, and that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Its nothing new for the world to think that followers of Christ are fools. Paul said that the cross was foolishness to the world. Why should I agree with them about evolution? They are actually using it to war against God, and that's why they bring it to a Christian website. They are not trying to learn about the Lord, and they don't even believe in Him. Why do you think they come here?

Wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[SteveB28]

If I went to a Church and they started teaching this theory that man evolved from an ape, or a lemur, I would run out the door horrified. YEt, you Christians will swallow this heresy because a scientist teaches it. I guess, there is no reason for me to fret over any of you any longer. I may have problems, but at least I'm not that blind.

Have you considered that it may actually be the reverse? Because you are so tightly wound in what you want to be true, you are blinded from the reality of what is true.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I cannot believe that man evolved from some primitive animal over the course of millions of years.

Why is that?

I also cannot believe in a Church that would accept this theory, and who would accuse others of sin if they dont also accept this thoery.

What churches accuse others of sin for not accepting evolution?

I cannot believe in a Church that lacks enough discernment to see that this issue, and political matters, will only divide people and cause contention rather than love.

As far as I know, the only churches that make an issue out of it are the ones that reject evolution.

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

Teaching that man evolved from a lemur is heresy, and its far from rational. Please spare me your sheep in wolf clothing routine. Spare me your lies.

All those books were written by Christians. Most were by clergy.

Where you are screwed into the void is that you deny Christian clergy, Christians who are scientists, and Christian Clergy who are Scientists. Nobody can deal with you. You are alone other than "fellowship" with creationist frauds. Go back to the program.

 

[Blue Wren]

That's not very helpful. I disempower myself by coming to this website, you are correct about that. The apostles taught us to avoid debates and to be of one mind, and one judgment. You acknowledge that this discussion causes me distress, and you actually feed it more with your reply. If you want to side with an atheist who believes that we evolved from apes, rather than to edify a brother in distress, then that's your choice. If I came to your church is that how you would treat me? You are right that I must make my own choices though, and I must choose to avoid people because I don't think its good for me to be around Christians who debate everything instead of following Paul's command. If

At least, she tried to help you. I don't see, that you make any effort, to help yourself. You keep writing, about how much distress, this discussion causes you. People have advised you, to stop coming, if you are telling the truth. That is sensible advice. It is caring. It isn't, what you want to hear, apparently, as you want to blame everybody, but yourself, for your own problems. You bring distress, upon yourself, by coming back. Nobody, has treated you harshly, from what I have read. You, are the one, whose behaviour, here, is not showing, any empathy, for others.

If you came, to her church, or, to mine, would you treat other Christians as rudely, as you have treated them here? Most Christians, we have no problems, with evolution, of course not. That's not siding, with atheists, no. It's accepting reality. You know, the Pope accepts evolution, yes? Most Protestant denominations do, also.

 

[Poster0]

At least, she tried to help you. I don't see, that you make any effort, to help yourself. You keep writing, about how much distress, this discussion causes you. People have advised you, to stop coming, if you are telling the truth. That is sensible advice. It is caring. It isn't, what you want to hear, apparently, as you want to blame everybody, but yourself, for your own problems. You bring distress, upon yourself, by coming back. Nobody, has treated you harshly, from what I have read. You, are the one, whose behaviour, here, is not showing, any empathy, for others.

If you came, to her church, or, to mine, would you treat other Christians as rudely, as you have treated them here? Most Christians, we have no problems, with evolution, of course not. That's not siding, with atheists, no. It's accepting reality. You know, the Pope accepts evolution, yes? Most Protestant denominations do, also.

Ok, I ask forgiveness then. That should end the matter. Please forgive my faults. I'm sorry that I allowed accusations against me to distress me as they did. I was accused by a Christian of sinning because I didn't accept the theory of evolution. I stumbled over it, and I sorry. I should not have returned insult for insult, and my actions were wrong. I ask forgiveness.