Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith

[smaneck]

That post was a bit confusing, but I think ToBeLoved was saying that the Book of Mormon made its appearance 1600 years after the canon closed.

Okay. I thought she was no suggesting that the canon gets closed by Protestant Reformation since that is when the Apocrypha gets thrown out.

 

[smaneck]

The Mormons (JST) changes the Bible with NO manuscript support (ex. Romans 8:30). They excise an entire book (Song of Solomon).

Whatever the Mormons might have done we know most Protestants excised seven books.

 

[smaneck]

Of course.

I find that ironic though to use a book that you find only somewhat authoritative if translated correctly,

As far as I know only the KJV-only Protestants imagine a translation to be infallible. I'm sure DrSteve would not take that position.

although we have the originals in manuscript to prove a Christians understanding wrong of the Trinity using a book most Christians find to be the only authority.

?????

Are you referring to that verse in one of John's Epistles which refers to the Trinity but which even Walter Martin recognizes to be an interpolation? In fact he criticizes LDS claims because that verse ends up in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Albion]

Whatever the Mormons might have done we know most Protestants excised seven books.

But these are not comparable to what was being said in the post you replied to. The Apocrypha had been in doubt from the beginning--and for good reason. Not so the Song of Solomon. And the Jews didn't accept the Apocrypha either.

 

[smaneck]

But these are not comparable to what was being said in the post you replied to. The Apocrypha had been in doubt from the beginning--and for good reason. Not so the Song of Solomon. And the Jews didn't accept the Apocrypha either.

In doubt in terms of what? The Song of Solomon is certainly included in the Tanakh but that doesn't mean it authorship is not questioned. And if Jews did not give the Apocrypha any credence where did they get Hanukkah from?

 

[Albion]

In doubt in terms of what? The Song of Solomon is certainly included in the Tanakh but that doesn't mean it authorship is not questioned.

Authorship isn't the issue with the Apocrypha. It's that there is plenty about those books that makes it appear that they are not inspired.

if Jews did not give the Apocrypha any credence where did they get Hanukkah from?

They HAVE the books. The question is whether or not they are inspired.

 

[smaneck]

Authorship isn't the issue with the Apocrypha. It's that there is plenty about those books that makes it appear that they are not inspired.
They HAVE the books. The question is whether or not they are inspired.

It is true they are not seen as having the same authority as the Tanakh, but then the Prophets and Writings don't have the same authority as the Torah. At least, not as I understand it.

I don't think Jews share the same concept of inspiration as Sola Scriptura Christians.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is true they are not seen as having the same authority as the Tanakh, but then the Prophets and Writings don't have the same authority as the Torah. At least, not as I understand it.

I don't think Jews share the same concept of inspiration as Sola Scriptura Christians.

What do what Jews believe have to do with this ? They are more like you guys than Christians are. They have all sorts of written and oral books.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If you're so worried about mis-translations, why not go back to the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic?
Do you know how idiotic that whole point sounds? Why not just own it and say that you do not want to follow the Bible. God loves honesty.

Because no one has the originals.

I find we Mormons belief the Bible more than most Christians. The Bible says we are made in God's image, how many of you believe that?

 

[drstevej]

The Bible says we are made in God's image, how many of you believe that?

צֶלֶם
is the term in Genesis 1:26. Explain how you get a flesh and blood deity out of that. We have zits too, does God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because no one has the originals.

I find we Mormons belief the Bible more than most Christians. The Bible says we are made in God's image, how many of you believe that?

You can't find a copy of scripture in it's original language? You must not be trying very hard.

I think that you try to walk a very fine line. Don't try to convince me that your religion is all that and a bag of chips, but don't down Christianity by saying that you believe more of the Bible than most of us do. This conversation will go downhill fast then.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You don't even believe the Bible. lol.

You are kidding us, right?

I love the Bible, I've got collage credits in Bible studies. I sat down with a note book, a Strong's Bible Concordance and started at the beginning. I made my own glossary, wore out two Bibles doing it. When I got done I was a staunch believer that Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet of God.

 

[withwonderingawe]

צֶלֶם
is the term in Genesis 1:26. Explain how you get a flesh and blood deity out of that. We have zits too, does God?

How do you get an immaterial nothing?

 

[drstevej]

How do you get an immaterial nothing?

Does the Holy Spirit have zits too?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I love the Bible, I've got collage credits in Bible studies. I sat down with a note book, a Strong's Bible Concordance and started at the beginning. I made my own glossary, wore out two Bibles doing it. When I got done I was a staunch believer that Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet of God.

What about this verse?

2 Timothy 3:13-17
"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed. You know those who taught you, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Now Jesus equipped us for every good work almost 2,000 years ago. But you don't believe that, so the Bible is just a book to you.

I'm sure you read by this one really quick when it in no way supports Joseph Smith or additional revelation.

The Bible is that specific. That's the problem with trying to mesh the beliefs. They do not mesh. Will never mesh because you guys do things like add additional revelation that we are told not to do. It's simple really.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You can't find a copy of scripture in it's original language? You must not be trying very hard.

Did you bother to read through the article I posted about "without cause"? In the oldest copy Papyrus 67 [P67] “Barcelona” (AD 125–50) the phrase is not there but in the next Coptic [copsa, meg, bo] (third–fifth century) it is. It goes back and forth like that over the years and depending on the scribe. Having an original language copy won't help, only if we had Matthews actual manuscript would it clear up the issue.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Does the Holy Spirit have zits too?

Define a spirit using the Bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Did you bother to read through the article I posted about "without cause"? In the oldest copy Papyrus 67 [P67] “Barcelona” (AD 125–50) the phrase is not there but in the next Coptic [copsa, meg, bo] (third–fifth century) it is. It goes back and forth like that over the years and depending on the scribe. Having an original language copy won't help, only if we had Matthews actual manuscript would it clear up the issue.

So that's why you don't read the original language. Ok. That makes sense. lol. You have an excuse for everything, maybe the Bible would not line up with Joseph Smith if you took it more seriously.

Do you claim Warren Jeff's as your leader? Been wanting to ask you that. He's in jail right now for sexual assault of a minor and a bunch of other moral crimes with children.

 

[drstevej]

Define a spirit using the Bible.

πνεῦμα
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν.

 

[withwonderingawe]

πνεῦμα
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν.

And in English that means what? Can you see it, does it have structure, what was Moses looking at when he spoke to Yahweh face to face.