Could anyone tell me if this is true?

[joshua 1 9]

Yet it fails in the most fundamental and obvious way: it condones the practice of owning other people as property.

Indentured Servants typically worked four to seven years in exchange for passage, room, board, lodging and freedom dues. While the life of an indentured servant was harsh and restrictive, it wasn't slavery. There were laws that protected some of their rights. But their life was not an easy one, and the punishments meted out to people who wronged were harsher than those for non-servants. An indentured servant's contract could be extended as punishment for breaking a law, such as running away, or in the case of female servants, becoming pregnant.

 

[juvenissun]

The big guy could have said, "hey, don't beat your slaves." Or better yet, he could have said, "hey, you shouldn't own human beings as property." You get the idea.

Consider the economics and the environment of that time, God is wise not to give that kind of order. Practically, the slave system helps the poor more than the rich.

Humans are weak, and God understand. That is why several bad systems insisted by ancient Israeli people were only warned, but not banned by God. Human will take the consequence of his bad decisions. The abuse of the slavery system is an example.

 

[Jimmy D]

Consider the economics and the environment of that time, God is wise not to give that kind of order. Practically, the slave system helps the poor more than the rich.

Humans are weak, and God understand. That is why several bad systems insisted by ancient Israeli people were only warned, but not banned by God. Human will take the consequence of his bad decisions. The abuse of the slavery system is an example.

What about all the Africans that were captured and traded around the world, did it help them? Maybe If God had taken a harder line this abhorrent practice wouldn't have happened.

Mind you, I'm going to contradict myself a bit here as he did specifically forbid the practice in Exodus 21:16

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

That sounds pretty explicit to me, although He didn't mind ordering Moses to capture virgins, it's a mixed message at best.

 

[juvenissun]

What about all the Africans that were captured and traded around the world, did it help them? Maybe If God had taken a harder line this abhorrent practice wouldn't have happened.

Mind you, I'm going to contradict myself a bit here as he did specifically forbid the practice in Exodus 21:16

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

That sounds pretty explicit to me, although He didn't mind ordering Moses to capture virgins, it's a mixed message at best.

It is a mixed message to those whose mind is not straight. It would even be a wrong message to those who do not understand.

In reading the Bible, you focus should be on God, not on man. Those who think God permits slavery is an example of focusing on man, not on God.

 

[Jimmy D]

It is a mixed message to those whose mind is not straight. It would even be a wrong message to those who do not understand.

In reading the Bible, you focus should be on God, not on man. Those who think God permits slavery is an example of focusing on man, not on God.

Fair enough, I accept I'm not qualified to argue about the bible. Seems to be a mixed message to me though.

 

[HitchSlap]

We have no concept of what it was to be a "slave" in the Bible because of what was going on in the south in this country before the Civil war. Slavery according to the Bible could only last 7 years. They called it indentured servants. Back then it was really more of an issue of the person not wanting to go when their 7 years was up. They really had no were to go and if they had a Bible believing masters then they were well taken care of. Even animals, a good man takes good care of his animals but an evil and wicked man does not provide good care for them.

The point is that the Bible provides legal protection for servants that they would not have apart from the law as we find it in the Bible.

How magnanimous.

 

[HitchSlap]

Consider the economics and the environment of that time, God is wise not to give that kind of order. Practically, the slave system helps the poor more than the rich.

Humans are weak, and God understand. That is why several bad systems insisted by ancient Israeli people were only warned, but not banned by God. Human will take the consequence of his bad decisions. The abuse of the slavery system is an example.

If owning slaves is such an economical boon, then why don't we do that today?

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Not forever, all slaves were to be released at the 50 year jubilee. So you could not own a slave from one generation to the next. This was a big issue with the abolitionists is that the child of a female slave was considered to be a slave no matter how much white blood they had in them. Under Moses all the slaves were set free at the golden jubilee and that means they could be free or renegotiate their contract.

Nope. The Bible clearly lays out different guidelines for Hebrew debt slaves and non-Hebrew slaves. How can you be missing this when these verses come from the same chapter as the guidelines about Jubilee?

Lev. 25 - "44 Your male and female slaves are to be from the nations around you; you may purchase male and female slaves. 45 You may also purchase them from the foreigners staying with you, or from their families living among you—those born in your land. These may become your property. 46 You may leave them to your sons after you to inherit as property; you can make them slaves for life. But concerning your brothers, the Israelites, you must not rule over one another harshly."
​

In addition, God provided a loophole to allow slave owners to blackmail Hebrew debt slaves into life-long slavery:

Ex. 21 - 3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.

5 “But if the slave declares: ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man,’and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life.​

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Indentured Servants typically worked four to seven years in exchange for passage, room, board, lodging and freedom dues. While the life of an indentured servant was harsh and restrictive, it wasn't slavery. There were laws that protected some of their rights. But their life was not an easy one, and the punishments meted out to people who wronged were harsher than those for non-servants. An indentured servant's contract could be extended as punishment for breaking a law, such as running away, or in the case of female servants, becoming pregnant.

I am talking about slavery, not indentured servitude. I have corrected your errors about the different types of slavery discussed in the Bible for their repetition to border on dishonesty.

• The Bible clearly lays out how people may buy foreign slaves and keep them for life.
• The Bible clearly states that these slaves are "property", not indentured servants

All slavery condoned in the Bible was not debt slavery. Slaves could be taken in war:

Deut. 20: 10-11 - “When you approach a city to fight against it, you must make an offer of peace. 11 If it accepts your offer of peace and opens its gates to you, all the people found in it will become forced laborers for you and serve you.
​

And children could be born into slavery:

Ex. 21: 4 - If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.​

You appear to be talking about how you wish the Bible talked about slavery - I am addressing what is actually says about slavery.

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Consider the economics and the environment of that time, God is wise not to give that kind of order. Practically, the slave system helps the poor more than the rich.

Humans are weak, and God understand. That is why several bad systems insisted by ancient Israeli people were only warned, but not banned by God. Human will take the consequence of his bad decisions. The abuse of the slavery system is an example.

I am unwilling to cut a supposedly all-powerful God any slack on this count. He had plenty of time to ramble on about stoning gay people and girls who couldn't prove their virginity, but he couldn't figure out how to explain something as basic as "I created all of you equal - it is immoral to own another person as property"?

 

[juvenissun]

If owning slaves is such an economical boon, then why don't we do that today?

The democratic concept and the emphasis of human right (the essence of Humanism) prevented that from happening. Just one hundred years ago, it was still a common system.

However, we are doing that in a disguised modern way. It is called the Capitalism.

 

[juvenissun]

I am unwilling to cut a supposedly all-powerful God any slack on this count. He had plenty of time to ramble on about stoning gay people and girls who couldn't prove their virginity, but he couldn't figure out how to explain something as basic as "I created all of you equal - it is immoral to own another person as property"?

The Bible teaches that these two concepts are not correct in the eyes of God.

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

The democratic concept and the emphasis of human right (the essence of Humanism) prevented that from happening.

Blast! If only we weren't so concerned with fairness and rights we could still have slavery!

I feel like you're making this too easy - are you sure you aren't trying to make your position sound more ridiculous?

 

[juvenissun]

I am talking about slavery, not indentured servitude. I have corrected your errors about the different types of slavery discussed in the Bible for their repetition to border on dishonesty.

• The Bible clearly lays out how people may buy foreign slaves and keep them for life.
• The Bible clearly states that these slaves are "property", not indentured servants

All slavery condoned in the Bible was not debt slavery. Slaves could be taken in war:

Deut. 20: 10-11 - “When you approach a city to fight against it, you must make an offer of peace. 11 If it accepts your offer of peace and opens its gates to you, all the people found in it will become forced laborers for you and serve you.
​

And children could be born into slavery:

Ex. 21: 4 - If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.​

You appear to be talking about how you wish the Bible talked about slavery - I am addressing what is actually says about slavery.

Yes, once for a while, you made a correct statement about what the Bible says.

God makes a clear difference between slaves of God's chosen people and slaves of pagans. It is an important difference at that time. And it is STILL an important difference now. The Biblical message is consistent over these few thousands of years.

 

[juvenissun]

Blast! If only we weren't so concerned with fairness and rights we could still have slavery!

I feel like you're making this too easy - are you sure you aren't trying to make your position sound more ridiculous?

Humans are born different (unequal). This is a very important doctrine for nearly all major religions (Islaam, Buddhism, Daoism, Hinduism, and Christianity). Humanism made it wrong.

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Yes, once for a while, you made a correct statement about what the Bible says.

God makes a clear difference between slaves of God's chosen people and slaves of pagans. It is an important difference at that time. And it is STILL an important difference now. The Biblical message is consistent over these few thousands of years.

It is amazing how many different ways you are determined to be wrong about this. No, the verses I quoted do not show a difference between slaves OF Hebrews and slaves OF non-Hebrews - it shows a difference in how people were allowed to treat Hebrew slaves and non-Hebrew slaves. Good grief.

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Humans are born different (unequal). Humanism made it wrong.

And yet we've managed to build a society based upon the idea of equality that doesn't have slaves, that doesn't bludgeon young girls to death for not being able to prove they are virgins on their wedding night, that doesn't condone killing people for adultery or for being gay.

Odd that.

 

[juvenissun]

It is amazing how many different ways you are determined to be wrong about this. No, the verses I quoted do not show a difference between slaves OF Hebrews and slaves OF non-Hebrews - it shows a difference in how people were allowed to treat Hebrew slaves and non-Hebrew slaves. Good grief.

You are mostly right. God's people should treat God's people differently from treating non-God's people.
I don't see anything wrong with that. For example, The US government would treat US citizen differently from treating non-US citizen.

 

[juvenissun]

And yet we've managed to build a society based upon the idea of equality that doesn't have slaves, that doesn't bludgeon young girls to death for not being able to prove they are virgins on their wedding night, that doesn't condone killing people for adultery or for being gay.

Odd that.

What you said described a modern society of no order and no justice.

What God tells Israelis to do 4000 years ago protected them perfectly in their living environment at 4000 years ago. The spirit of God's commandments given 4000 years ago is still valid and correct 4000 years later. It protects God's people perfectly today. For example, employees should be loyal to the employer, and pre-marital sex experience is harmful to the marriage.

 

[Loudmouth]

If owning slaves is such an economical boon, then why don't we do that today?

Or better yet, why was the economy in the North better than the economy in the South prior to the US Civil War?